Disclaimer: Much of this post is biased and meant to be in good humor and should not be taken very seriously... and yes I was quite bored when I wrote this.

https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/gallegogeise/web/top.png
The perpetual underachievers vs the luckiest sons of b*tches alive.


Probable lineups
(barring further injuries or suspensions in the Spain - Greece match)

Spain
------------Casillas------------
Ramos--Puyol--Marchena--Capdevila
------------Senna--------------
----Iniesta---Xavi-----Silva------
----------Torres---Villa----------

Italy
(with help from locco)
----------------Buffon--------------
Zambrotta--Panucci--Gamberini--Grosso
----Camoranesi---De Rossi---Ambrosini--
--------------Del Piero--------------
-----------Toni----Cassano---------

-------------------------------------------------------------------------


Three reasons why Italy will win this match

They cheat
9CQf4zYJ2fY
Italy eliminates Australia after simulating a penalty in the last moments of their 1/8 final match at WC2006.

They play dirty, and get away with it
http://img.notasdefutbol.com/2008/03/luisenrique.jpg
Luis Enrique after Tassotti broke his nose in the penalty box. No penalty
was given and Italy advanced 2-1 in the WC1994 quarterfinals.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38085000/jpg/_38085248_taeyoung300.jpg
Vieri breaks Kim Tae-Young's nose in the WC2002 1/8 finals.
No card was given. Italy proceeded to blame the loss on the ref...

Late-match luck
(The following is a non-comprehensive list of examples from recent history)

-Baggio scores equalizer in 88th minute against Nigeria (WC1994 1/8 finals)
-Baggio scores game-winner in 87th minute against Spain (WC1994 1/4 finals)
-Italy is forgiven a clear penalty in stoppage time against Spain (WC1994 1/4 finals)
-Baggio scores penalty kick in 85th minute to tie Chile (WC1998 Group Stage)
-Baggio scores game-winner in 89th minute to beat Austria (WC1998 Group Stage)
-Del Piero scores game-winner in 88th minute to beat Sweden (Euro2000 Group Stage)
-Del Piero equalizes in the 85th against Mexico to advance (WC2002 Group Stage)
-Cassano scores game-winner in 94th minute to beat Bulgaria (Euro2004 Group Stage)
-Totti scores non-existant penalty in 95th minute to beat Aussies (WC2006 1/8 finals)
-Grosso and Del Piero score in 119th and 121st minute to beat Germany (WC2006 1/4 finals)
-Buffon saves penalty against Romania that would eliminate them in 81st (Euro2008 Group Stage)


Two reason why Spain will lose

They're underachievers

Despite entering EVERY World Cup and Euro tournament as one of the favorites, Spain has not advanced past the
quarterfinals since Euro 1984. So sure are the Spanish of their eventual fate that TV's were sold
before Euro 2008 with the guarantee of refunding 25% of the price if Spain advances past quarterfinals.

If we don't screw ourselves over, the refs do

zbeY7tVr0vo
The ref anulls two goals for Spain and blows a critical offsides call against Korea in the WC2002 quarterfinals



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

All ranting aside, I predict Italy beating us on penalties after a 1 - 1 match. Toni and Villa with the goals.

God I hope Spain wins this match.

About Italy's line-up :

System : 4-3-1-2

gk : 1 Buffon

rb : 19 Zambrotta
cb : 2 Panucci , 5 Gamberini
lb : 3 Grosso

rm : 16 Camoranesi
cm : 10 De Rossi
lm : 13 Ambrosini
cam : 10 Del Piero (C)

st : 9 Toni , 18 Cassano

The same system you said , some other players ...probably more like this ...

Humm I'm affraid that now Italia will be able to win this match.... and the Euro....

I hope to see all these good young spanish player do something good.... and see Fabregas!!!!

Villa for top goal-scorer. :mrt1:

Villa for top goal-scorer. :mrt1:
Great player!!!! Can someone know where he will play next season???

I hope Italy get destroyed of the sides remaining they play the ugliest football...so for the sake of keeping the beautiful game beautfiul lets go Spain!

i also hope italy get destroyed and then moan about it for the next 2 years, come on spain!!

Italy haven't been too lucky so far this tournament.
I've got a feeling it's Spain's turn this time. Torres and Villa are just deadly playing together.

Spain are favourites nonetheless that questionable (but quite funny and in some terms, correct (H)) introduction post. Gattuso and Pirlo are out = no midfield for Italy. Spain needs to use that advantage bringing in Fabregas or something.

And yeah, Italy are some lucky b*tches

Italy haven't been too lucky so far this tournament.
I've got a feeling it's Spain's turn this time. Torres and Villa are just deadly playing together.
-Buffon blocked the penalty that would have eliminated them
-Ribery's injury
-Penalty and red card for Abidal
-Goal scored off Henry

yes, they have been lucky

-Buffon blocked the penalty that would have eliminated them
-Ribery's injury
-Penalty and red card for Abidal
-Goal scored off Henry

yes, they have been lucky

- Buffon blocked the penalty cause he's the best goalkeeper in the world
- Ribery injuried because he was stupid and tackled like an amateur
- Abidal deserved 100% that sent off

The fact that France team it's stupid doesn't mean luck ...I'm not an Italian fan but let's be realist . Anyway , if Italy will win deserved against Spain , you will still say they were lucky even they'll play good so ...

- Buffon blocked the penalty cause he's the best goalkeeper in the world
- Ribery injuried because he was stupid and tackled like an amateur
- Abidal deserved 100% that sent off

The fact that France team it's stupid doesn't mean luck ...I'm not an Italian fan but let's be realist . Anyway , if Italy will win deserved against Spain , you will still say they were lucky even they'll play good so ...
Your idea of luck and my idea of luck are very different. With possibly the exception of the Buffon penalty, the rest are things that conveniently happened to Italy. I say they are lucky, but I also say that soccer requires lots of luck. As a team you can only do so much... you need elements outside of your power to fall into place as well if you want to win a tournament.

And if Italy win on some scrappy goal, bullsh*t penalty, etc. then yes, I will say they are lucky. Otherwise I will concede defeat. I really doubt they can beat us legitimately though.

I hope that Spain will win, even if i am half Italian (I life there bu I am half Soutirolean, my dad is peruvian my mum southtirolean)
Because Spain has win a title after more than 40years.
And Italy without Pirlo and Gattuso....
I hope Villa will score and he will play next season for us (real madrid)
I think Spain will win 2:1

Spain will get this i think ..

hahaha. italian luck this, italian soccer sucks that. same crap fans of italian soccer have been hearing for years. people who hate serie A dont actually watch that much soccer(only league they probably watch is the prem or something; 'duh, ill pick manyoo as my favourite team") or are just stuck in the past and tow the same line that italian football is boring. you dont win 4 world cups and 1 euro if you're domestic league isnt up to par or if you cant attack. plus, we wouldnt have been in the position to be "lucky" in this year's euros if acutal goals were counted. toni's goal would've gave us the win in the romanian game and then there wouldnt be all this 'luck' talk. jealously talks, and people are jealous of italy's accomplishments. the best european team, alongside germany, so they receive the most hate. the usual anti-italian rhetoric, that's all it is.

i really hope italy destroys spain so that spain can fail once again. 1 euro victory doesnt make you the best in the world, ask denmark. conversely, if spain win, i hope they make it to the final and lose there just so the fact is cemented into the spanish that they're never gonna win anything. ever. :33vff3o:

If Spain don't win this match, they should be castrated. They're playing agianst a teams that's lost its 2 brightest sparks and that has one of the oldest age averages in the tournament, only making it through by beating a team that was led by a hippy.

Let us not forget Spain hasnt beaten Italy in an official tournament in 88 years....also...Spain's problem has never been its football its always been mental and I do believe Italy have as of now the mental edge...The Spanish coach and media started shaking in their boots the moment they heard it was Italy they would have to play, even thought if you look at who has had the better tournament then they should be fully confident of their abilities...9 games unbeaten for Spain, but yet, they are shaking at an italian team that barely made it into the second round and that was effectively destroyed by Holland and dominated by a descent if not great Romanian side for large periods of their game.....interesting I think

hahaha. italian luck this, italian soccer sucks that. same crap fans of italian soccer have been hearing for years. people who hate serie A dont actually watch that much soccer(only league they probably watch is the prem or something; 'duh, ill pick manyoo as my favourite team") or are just stuck in the past and tow the same line that italian football is boring. you dont win 4 world cups and 1 euro if you're domestic league isnt up to par or if you cant attack. plus, we wouldnt have been in the position to be "lucky" in this year's euros if acutal goals were counted. toni's goal would've gave us the win in the romanian game and then there wouldnt be all this 'luck' talk. jealously talks, and people are jealous of italy's accomplishments. the best european team, alongside germany, so they receive the most hate. the usual anti-italian rhetoric, that's all it is.

i really hope italy destroys spain so that spain can fail once again. 1 euro victory doesnt make you the best in the world, ask denmark. conversely, if spain win, i hope they make it to the final and lose there just so the fact is cemented into the spanish that they're never gonna win anything. ever. :33vff3o:
I've supported my "rhetoric" with several solid examples. And my post was directed at the Italian national team, not its domestic league.

I think I was the first to say that we never win anything.... you're arguing against nobody.

If you're going to beat Italy, now is as good a time as any with Pirlo and Gattusso out. However, their goalscorers...Toni, Cassano, Di Natale and Del Piero are due....in a big way! Spain had problems dealing with headers against Greece...they aren't the biggest team and Italy could really capitalize there.

This Italian team gives me the impression that they're destined to go all the way now. They were on the verge of elimination and survived.....that has almost breathed life right back into them although the 2 AC Milan MFs missing will hurt no doubt. It's really close to call but I sense that Italy has only just arrived....they're going from strength to strength and, even though they haven't shown it so far, they're capable of playing in a watchable manner. I was hoping that they'd be knocked out in the group stages, but now I think they've got the bit between their teeth and can smell blood...

Italy 2:0 Spain

As a Spaniard I can say that Italy are the favorites, by a mile. Are Italy more talented? No. Are they more technical? No. Do they play attractive hungry football? Heavens no. The answer is simple. Italy, like Germany have that "winners luck" that's either inherited or not. They also play super efficient. It's like areverse curse. Notice no matter how bad Italy and Germany play they are always there? Whether it be n ignored elbow to the nose of an opposing player in the penalty box or a miscall, or apenalty, or a lucky bounce, doesn't matter. Italy will advance and will meet germany in the final, where the most boring out of the two will win! End of story.

God I hope Spain wins this match.

Same. 1-0 Spain, Torres winner.

Forgot to mention, Ambrosini to be sent off. Guaranteed.

1-0 Italy. Penalty in the dying minutes, surely...

SPAIN! (H)

I think every real football fan wants attractive football and not boring football :)

I hope you know what I mean :)

2-1 for Spain.

Italy could only win if they dive and get a penalty, or if they play 11 against 8

Let us not forget Spain hasnt beaten Italy in an official tournament in 88 years.

Netherlands prior to their game against italy hasnt beaten them in 20 years.

hmm, so many are hoping for Italy to lose this game, which isn't fun at all if everyone is going against the same team....well, just to tell yer, its not like Italy have control of their good luck, if they had, they would've won the WC about six times now......
I thought even tho Italy aren't playing as well as Spain they do create chances in the game, and people keep moaning about the penalty and the red card but it was a dead on penalty and red card, it was rather the pass and Toni's good control that won that penalty rather than luck.

But this match is a tough one to call given Spain's great form and Italy's constant improvement(or luck improvement as the others might say :D).

I'd have to see the teams(formation and selections) first to choose a winner.

Netherlands prior to their game against italy hasnt beaten them in 20 years.

Yeah, I get annoyed every time announcers bring up the fact a team hasn't beaten a team in so and so years considering the fact that this seems like the tournament where every team shatters their losing streaks against bogey teams. The Dutch hadn't beaten Italy in 30 years, same for Italy against France and look what happened. If there was ever a tournament for Spain to break their curse against Italy, I think this is the one.

Spain are a really good attacking team and normally Italy wouldn't have a problem but seeing as our defense this tournament hasn't been up to Italian standards(our defenders are defending rather nervously, rather than with actual skill)we are going to have a difficult time. I wouldn't be surprised if Spain won, or if they choked for that matter.

My prediction, Italy 1:0 Spain, with Buffon getting the goal because nobody else on our team can score.

Spain has their name written on the Winners Line..
IMO Italy's luck might desert then this time around....

Why most people are rooting for Spain? Simple. people want to see the beautiful game not 11 men landscaping! Look at how the Netherlands has performed, how Turkey came back to beat the Czechs, Spains first game vs. Russia, etc. Neutrals appreciate teams that entertain and mesmerize. Not teams that snooze and stifle their way to finals. No thanks.

That said, Italy will still beat us. Guaranteed that something either regretful/controversial/lucky will happen. Guaranteed.

I judge sports on probability. I never thought Brazil would win the last WC because they'd been in the final of the previous three or four WCs and no way were they gonna get there again no matter how good they were.

I'd say that Spain's bad luck will run out too eventually and they will get past the quarter finals, and maybe win it all. Spain vs Netherlands oooh a 8-8 game with penalties? Probably not but would be nice to see.

Why most people are rooting for Spain? Simple. people want to see the beautiful game not 11 men landscaping! Look at how the Netherlands has performed, how Turkey came back to beat the Czechs, Spains first game vs. Russia, etc. Neutrals appreciate teams that entertain and mesmerize. Not teams that snooze and stifle their way to finals. No thanks.

That said, Italy will still beat us. Guaranteed that something either regretful/controversial/lucky will happen. Guaranteed.

well, thats saying it from Spain's point of view, u've got to see it from every angle, by all means i'm not rooting for any of the teams but lets put it this way, if yer stuck supporting your national team and it happens they play a boring game then everyone's going to be against yer, especially the so-called neutrals.

Neutrals aren't neutrals unless they stay as neutrals(not supporting either team), going for a certain team just because their
By doing so, you're now a supporter of the team you're going for.

Who knows what will happen? the chances are slim to none but Italy might be the ones playing the more attractive game in this match, who knows.
and if they do that, i'm sure most people would do their best to try and overlook it by saying Spain were s.hite, etc.

and as a neutral, i wouldn't want anything controversial to happen that would decide the outcome of the match. Lets hope it will finally be decided fair and square.

and I'm still waiting for possible team selections and news.(Puyol injury situation and who'll fill in for Pirlo and Gattuso?)


Lets not forget in football anything can happen.


cheers

what an epic first post, Sevillista.....good stuff!


Anyway. Let's hope that both of these two squads just vanish off the face of the Earth midway through the match and we never hear from them again.


btw, who the **** is the ref? Howard Webb or that dude who did the Dutch/Italy match would be really awesome.

what an epic first post, Sevillista.....good stuff!


Anyway. Let's hope that both of these two squads just vanish off the face of the Earth midway through the match and we never hear from them again.


btw, who the **** is the ref? Howard Webb or that dude who did the Dutch/Italy match would be really awesome.
The German official, Herbert Flandel will be reffing the match. Hopefully he stays out of the spotlight.

3-1 for Spain.

Villa x2, Güiza (in the dying minutes)
Panucci

3-1 for Spain.

Villa x2, Güiza (in the dying minutes)
Panucci
Güiza will not play unless we are tied or losing and a forward is injured. If we are winning, Aragones will more likely take a forward out and put in another midfielder, like he did against Russia.

Btw, I must say that I have been VERY impressed by Cazorla in this tournament. I saw him very little in La Liga. He's outperforming Cesc, and has pretty much played at the level of Xavi/Iniesta. Very fast, creative player (Y).

looks like you can add on field arguments between your RB and your coach, as reasons why Spain can loose this game. I can only imagine what aragones might have said that would cause Ramos to get all fired up..

Would any Italian translate this ?? :D

http://www.balkanweb.com/sitev4/foto/kronika/italisa/1.jpg

Yeah, I get annoyed every time announcers bring up the fact a team hasn't beaten a team in so and so years considering the fact that this seems like the tournament where every team shatters their losing streaks against bogey teams. The Dutch hadn't beaten Italy in 30 years, same for Italy against France and look what happened. If there was ever a tournament for Spain to break their curse against Italy, I think this is the one.

Spain are a really good attacking team and normally Italy wouldn't have a problem but seeing as our defense this tournament hasn't been up to Italian standards(our defenders are defending rather nervously, rather than with actual skill)we are going to have a difficult time. I wouldn't be surprised if Spain won, or if they choked for that matter.

My prediction, Italy 1:0 Spain, with Buffon getting the goal because nobody else on our team can score.

Imagine if this happened..

I dont wanna see Camo, Cassano or Ambrosini in the Italian starting lineup, man.


What a fuccking shame that Pirlo or King Materazzi wont be participating in this match.

Would any Italian translate this ?? :D

http://www.balkanweb.com/sitev4/foto/kronika/italisa/1.jpg

"I'm Albanian, without permission I support Italy anyway."

Way to butcher the Italian language.(H)

lol :)

Thanks (Y)

So first he has an argument with Torres, then with Ramos....

what are they, Dutch???

Perhaps it is not the players but the coach who should shut his mouth.

They were both very minor, but the press is having trouble filling their hours of euro2008 coverage so they became big.

folowing on my holland v Russia prediction.. I shall do the same here.

I'm picking Spain to pull the upset, upset became so many people are picking the Italians to win it based on current distractions and Italy's momentum. Spain have found a front that is clicking and will cause a threat to the Italians defence. Toni will find his form, but will be too little too late.

And if Spain fail to win this game, after the game, aragones should be sacked and a new squad picked to prepare for the world cup, because seriously, Spain have the quality to win this game. Forget Italy being lucky, a team has to make its own luck... Just look at the Turks

From BBC
2215: Russia through to the semi-final where they will face Italy or Spain. And on the basis of the first three quarter-finals, you wouldn't bet against Italy would you? Like Holland and Croatia, Spain won all three group games. Like Holland, Croatia and Portugal, Spain rested a host of players for their final group game...

I am hoping Spain beat Italy. Please. 3-2 to Spain last minute goal through a penalty won by diving would be nice.

folowing on my holland v Russia prediction.. I shall do the same here.

I'm picking Spain to pull the upset, upset became so many people are picking the Italians to win it based on current distractions and Italy's momentum. Spain have found a front that is clicking and will cause a threat to the Italians defence. Toni will find his form, but will be too little too late.

And if Spain fail to win this game, after the game, aragones should be sacked and a new squad picked to prepare for the world cup, because seriously, Spain have the quality to win this game. Forget Italy being lucky, a team has to make its own luck... Just look at the Turks

Really?? Is it true that most people are banking on Italy to win it? I always thought people were going for Spain...
Spain played the better football in the group stages but so did the Netherlands and Portugal and both have gone packing........
I'm staying on the fence since I can't predict what will happen next after that Croatia-Turkey game.......:crazy:

Well so far it hasn't looked good for group winners in this tournament. Hopefully it goes Italy's way tomorrow.

A quadraple of runner-ups of the group stage in the semis maybe? Never write off the Italians.

Yeah I'm a fence sitter too. I just couldn't begin to guess which way this is gonna go. It will be a drama though, I'm sure of that one thing. :)

I don't guess either but I'll base this on probability. No way would all four of the first place finishing teams in each group will be knocked out in the qf. Spain WILL get past the quarterfinal sometime, and this should be that time, Italy can't always be lucky, so this would be your best bet on Spain to move on. Not saying they'll win the tourament, but why not get past the qf.

Your probability theorems in your two posts in this thread have been the dumbest things I've ever seen regarding football. Are you gonna write off ManU from advancing to the last 16 in the CL because they've done it every year for who knows how long?

Seriously, that Brazil thing is unreal, I can't believe THAT's why you didn't think they'd reach the final. Are you even aware that footie is not a game based on probability?

Anyway, my prediction is that Italy, despite no Pirlo nor Gattuso and despite playing badly and 2 goals out of 3 being FK/Penalty (can't remember the Romanian goal) and missing their two main defenders, AND Toni, their sole striker in the starting lineup, playing quite badly, will win. A 1 goal win or via penalties. They'll get physical and scare the Spaniards out of playing properly. The mental side will be what sets them back, despite the fact that they have the better team and play better football.

Dutch found a way to mess up.....Spain is next.

http://www.homeoffice.idv.tw/archives/image/V-for-Vendetta.bmp

Your probability theorems in your two posts in this thread have been the dumbest things I've ever seen regarding football. Are you gonna write off ManU from advancing to the last 16 in the CL because they've done it every year for who knows how long?

Seriously, that Brazil thing is unreal, I can't believe THAT's why you didn't think they'd reach the final. Are you even aware that footie is not a game based on probability?

Anyway, my prediction is that Italy, despite no Pirlo nor Gattuso and despite playing badly and 2 goals out of 3 being FK/Penalty (can't remember the Romanian goal) and missing their two main defenders, AND Toni, their sole striker in the starting lineup, playing quite badly, will win. A 1 goal win or via penalties. They'll get physical and scare the Spaniards out of playing properly. The mental side will be what sets them back, despite the fact that they have the better team and play better football.

sadly, as a Spaniard, I agree

I don't know why most folks are under the impression that the Spaniards have a better team or are somehow more skilled than the Italians and that the only fathomable way that the Italians come out with a victory here is through divine intervention or through some sort of aid from the refs......WTF? Even if they weren't missing their best and most influential player in Pirlo and one of the most intimidating DMs around in Gattuso, I'm still certain that most fans of the game would be asserting that the Spaniards are somehow the superior squad.


Look, they might have some phenomenal individual talent and play the more aesthetically pleasing brand of soccer, but they're far from being the more overall talented team, man.


HUP, ITALY, HUP!

I dissagree Yossarian...I think Spain's technical ability is greater while Italy is tactically more discipline and physically superior...as well as mentally...But if you want to talk raw skills Spain takes the edge time and time again

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/1006/25951404563947499c43oln5.jpg

I dissagree Yossarian...I think Spain's technical ability is greater while Italy is tactically more discipline and physically superior...as well as mentally...But if you want to talk raw skills Spain takes the edge time and time again



i honestly dont know how you could be more technically proficient than the Italians are......they're supremely flawless technically from their designated 'fantasista" to their lowly brute sitting at the end of the bench, man.


They might have equals,such as your country, but there's no squad superior to them in that facet of the game,man.

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/1006/25951404563947499c43oln5.jpg

LOLOLOL HAHAHA:rofl::rofl:

Yoss, I disagree. I'm not a fan of the Spanish NT. I don't think they're as on-form as everyone thinks, and they have many faults, and I mean in terms of playing, not just the mental and physical sides, in both of which they lack even more (although it's possible that Luis has been working on the mental side lately). I also don't think the italians will win via luck. However, the Dutch have clearly shown that without Pirlo able to distribute play, they lack creativity. It's also been shown that their attack is very lacking, with Toni doing pretty much **** all. They have overall been the most disappointing team of the tournie (perhaps with the exception of France) and the reason seems to be Cannavaro's absence. Now, add Gattuso and Materazzi's absence, who are incredibly important to the team, and without Pirlo even on the field, they have very little going their way in terms of football. Even Donadoni is a worse manager than Luis. The thing they have in their favor are their GK, their ability to play physically their mental stability, and experience. Unfortunately for Spain, they suck at all of those things (except for the GK), which is why Italy will rely on limiting Spain, which will lead to an uniteresting match.

I hope I'm wrong, but there you have it.

Get Italy out of their comfort zone like the Dutch and you're good but I think Spain will be overcautious. Not that Italy would hurt them for that.
'
Don't Italy have a June 22 course as well? Not that that would make a difference.

I think Italy are going to win this one, based on the principle they always manage to barely get the result (but they still do), and that Spain usually choke. Still, i'm rooting for the Spanish.

Get Italy out of their comfort zone like the Dutch and you're good but I think Spain will be overcautious. Not that Italy would hurt them for that.
'
Don't Italy have a June 22 course as well? Not that that would make a difference.
Ours is worse. We've lost three times on the 22nd of June on penalty kicks.

david silva is dying...oh wait, it's just a spanish girl rolling around on the ground play acting. i though it was the italians that only did that. we dont have time for goal replays, yet we gotta wait for this twat to heal himself.

david silva is dying...oh wait, it's just a spanish girl rolling around on the ground play acting. i though it was the italians that only did that. we dont have time for goal replays, yet we gotta wait for this twat to heal himself.

Dimo (aka son of a bitch) didn't you see the foul? At least in the replay????? 3 -4 non calls so far including a penalty, at least one. The ref is a freaking kunt! and should not be allowed to work any other big games. he should go to the hackney marshes where he belongs! So far the Italians are "playing" junk football as usual! I'm so freaking irate witht this ref. Im starting to lose hope in football. Out with the (k)unt refs in with cameras and replays, F!ck it!

Clear penalty and clear foul outside the box and no calls. Pretty much what I expected from this match.

I can't wait to see how we lose this one.

He might've acted but his foot was stomped on. It was outside the box though so not a penalty and yeah this ref has a bit of a complex.

Btw, replays/cameras can't decide if it's a foul or not...that'd be too much of a hassle BUT they can decide if it's a goal or not.

He might've acted but his foot was stomped on. It was outside the box though so not a penalty and yeah this ref has a bit of a complex.

Btw, replays/cameras can't decide if it's a foul or not...that'd be too much of a hassle BUT they can decide if it's a goal or not.

Acted? Do you play football? I do, and that hurts mate! It was clear as day. and for the record, you can use cameras to decide close calls. If refs cant do the job they should step over. Refs are put there to enforce rules. If there
's a better way, I say lets get our herads out of our @sses and evolve! I am tired of refs playing protagonists in football. This type of stuff is ruining the game

i saw the foul and it was out of the box. but my point is that people say replays will slow down the game, but it's already slowed down by players rolling around the ground then the ball getting kicked out just for the player to get backup and start playing again. i'm not talking about replays being for fouls, just goals that are incorrectly called on the field. if we get all this play acting out of the game than we would have ample time to replay goals.

david silva is dying...oh wait, it's just a spanish girl rolling around on the ground play acting. i though it was the italians that only did that. we dont have time for goal replays, yet we gotta wait for this twat to heal himself.

It was a clear foul - Grosso stepped on Silva's foot on purpose to stop the play. The Italians also do it (pretend they're injured), the only difference being the fact they do it without being touched.

I can easily see this game finishing 0-0 and Italy winning on penalties to continue the June22 curse. but God I hope not, come on Spain play like ****in men you bastards

Torres off. finally, he's been ******* horrid. and I really think putting a giant redwood inside the opposing area would be just as effective as having Toni in attack for Italy this EURO.

de rossi seems to be out of gas, the whole midfield hasnt really been doing anything.

Sorry but the referee has been nothing short of garbage! This freakin game should have been over. Where did they find this (k)unt anyway? Like I said, Italy look like 11 men working on grass. Landscapers! And like I said, luck is on their side, big time. I guess since they can't match us with talent, they decide to crowd behind the ball as if they were waiting for a subway in Times Sq.

common!! Guiza for Torres?!??!

Sorry but the referee has been nothing short of garbage! This freakin game should have been over. Where did they find this (k)unt anyway? Like I said, Italy look like 11 men working on grass. Landscapers! And like I said, luck is on their side, big time. I guess since they can't match us with talent, they decide to crowd behind the ball as if they were waiting for a subway in Times Sq.

please, both teams have luck. iker cleared one of the line, good save though. all this talk about spanish talent all through the years has won them 1 euro cup. you guys got to get 4 more world cups before you match italy's lack of 'talent'

I expected much more from this game . Disappointing match.

VAMOS ESPANA!
Podemos ganar!

zzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Marco Senna MoM for me.

please, both teams have luck. iker cleared one of the line, good save though. all this talk about spanish talent all through the years has won them 1 euro cup. you guys got to get 4 more world cups before you match italy's lack of 'talent'

BS! Iker threw his leg out to save it. Even the replay shows his eyes follow the ball and kick it out. Thats skill. Now the ball hitting the post = pure luck. But good try!

PENALTIES...
everyone must hope that spain win pls:bouncy:

I was talking about this Italys lack of talent. Present day Italy, not historical Italy dimo. Italy came to the match planning for penalties.. Congrats and I hope Germany beat you bad in the final!

freaking Italians suck, they came into the match gunning for penalties and they got them.....well there goes Spain, I cant even watch!

freaking Italians suck, they came into the match gunning for penalties and they got them.....well there goes Spain, I cant even watch!

Yea. Like Ive been saying all this time. You need luck and Italy are the luckiest bunch in the history of footnall. Its either meant to be or not and Im not ashamed of admiting that we have no luck!

P.S - Serie A, Italian National side = anti football. Crap football!

uh, de rossi...blows one in manchester and blows one now

congrats to spain, i hope you guys get destroyed by russia.

TAKE THAT YOU MOTHER ****ERS!!!!....SAN IKER!!! THANK YOU GOD!!! best team have won!!!

The curse was broken. Congrats Spain.

Still, what a boring match. Worst than it only Romania-France.

And Sevillista, did Italy won? (H)

Take that Italian garbage ! appy with your pk wishes?

AVULSED Reanimation again!

Thank you Jesus.

I would have sworn, if David Silva shoots the last penalty, he misses it.

Meh, the better team went through. It wasn't meant to be Italy's tournament anyway and hopefully this is the end for Donadoni. I don't think he even told the players to go out and win the game. It's like he just prepared for penalties.

YES WIN WON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THANKS CASILLAS FABREGAS AND THX GOD
WE WIN WE WIN!!!!!!!!!!!
THE RIGHT TEAM WIN, the team with better football
WE have the BEST GOALKEEPR OF THE WORLD
VAMOS ESPANA!!!!!!!!!!!!! MARAVIGLISO!
Buona notte calcio di merda

both teams played not to lose. it was going to be a crap match from the beginning. that being said...


italy takes football and ****s on it. then vomits on it. there's playing with a defense mentality, and there's not giving a **** about whether you even sniff the goal. **** crosses and hopeful headers by toni does not deserve them to move on. glad they were kicked out, if nothing else but for the fact we won't have to watch that travesty ever again.

Pfft, what a crappy match. I switched off after 45 mins, tuned in for the penalties. Judging from what commentators said I guess the better team went through. Just wasn't Italy's tournament. Very negative attitude.

But why all the sour grapes and hypocrisy in this thread? Chill out.

Playing not to lose is Italy's usual matchplan though, isnt it?

Fabregas taking the last one, he's gonna be one of the greatest for sure.

Well, I assure you we went in with the intention of winning playing the way we usually play. Italians had everyone behind the ball which is why we couldn't do too much. In the end, the better more talented team advanced and the team lusting for pk's is going home. Bye bye Kunts!

Pfft, what a crappy match. I switched off after 45 mins, tuned in for the penalties. Judging from what commentators said I guess the better team went through. Just wasn't Italy's tournament. Very negative attitude.

But why all the sour grapes and hypocrisy in this thread? Chill out.

Maybe alot of people hate how teams like Italy play football! Ever thought of that? perhaps we dont want to see the beautiful game get an ugly facelift! Good riddance to the Eyeties

Congrats Spain. The rest of the competition should be interesting now that we're rid of the most defensive/anti-footballing team in football history!

Toma Pijo Tomaaaaaaaa!!!

Certainly I've seen worse in terms of defensive mindedness, but this particular Italy side and this particular display remind me of the Catennaccio years and the unimaginative teams that played in the Italy 1990 World Cup...horrible by the Italians who at no point looked like they wanted to win...they just didnt want to lose...they suck...I think the cycle is over with all these old players and at least we can only hope that for the World Cup qualifiers they are playing something prettier

Congrats Spain. The rest of the competition should be interesting now that we're rid of the most defensive/anti-footballing team in football history!

To say the least! Bunch of landscapers! Now where are these "superior" Italian fans here? Can't hear them! For the record, Iker showed why he is the best keeper. The great kick save (which wasn't luck. If you see the replay, his eyes follow the ball and he kicks accordingly), and the 2 pk saves. Gianluigi on the backburner!

AHAHAHAHAha!!!!!

Congratulations to Spain, I was pleasantly surprised to see them go through, and this is coming from someone who generally supports the opposing team. This should make an interesting semi final, I'm sure Russia won't make the same mistake.

To say the least! Bunch of landscapers! Now where are these "superior" Italian fans here? Can't hear them! For the record, Iker showed why he is the best keeper. The great kick save (which wasn't luck. If you see the replay, his eyes follow the ball and he kicks accordingly), and the 2 pk saves. Gianluigi on the backburner!

And when have Italian fans claimed to be superior? Most of the Italian fan-base on this site isn't even active anymore. Modena, Juventino, and I are like the only Italians that have even popped into this thread, so it's not like we have a strong voice on these forums. And to claim that Casillas is the best keeper after saving two penalites is kind of over the top isn't it? Buffon saved one too. If we awarded the title of best goalkeeper to the one who saves the most penalites in a shootout, Ricardo would be miles ahead.

Congratulations to Spain...hopefully, you'll be offensive minded for the Russians.

Now, to be fair, Italy DID create some chances....a few were really good ones..Camaronesi's shot cleared off the line and that shot which forced Casillas to tip the ball over his crossbar. Although, I agree, they were very defensive minded...but without Pirlo and Gattussssssso, I saw it coming. I only tuned in after the 1st half ended....thank goodness for that!

http://img460.imageshack.us/img460/5479/roflcopter4co.jpg

This is a fantastic result. EURO happens once every four years and I don't want to keep sleeping through the games just because Italy is playing.

To be honest, I was really hoping for the REMATCH: Germany vs Italy in the final, so from that point of view its a bit dissapointing that Italy were beaten, but other than hoping that Torres and/or Xabi Alonso had a good game, I didn't have a preference for the winner.

Ah football. The game that unites the people of the World huh?

True, the Italians were super negative, and the extent of their negativity even shocked our Italian fans on this forum. So don't take it out on these guys, they had no say in their teams tactics.

So ok, their team was awful, but I still wanna say to the fans on here, hard luck fellas, really.

Spain? Congrats to the Spanish fans in here of course. Not surprised by the amount of diving going on by Torres, Villa and the rest, only dissapointed that with all the plaudits these players are drawing they still think cheating in front of the whole World is acceptable.

I hate divers, and I've had to put up with a few at Chelsea believe me. They are the lowest of the low and I just cannot respect any player who does that. I certainly would not want any more at my club either.

The Italians were no angels either. In particular I was pretty disgusted by the way that Di Natale crawled back onto the pitch to stop a Spanish attack. That was just shameful.

So congrats to the Spanish fans because I know that you never expected to go through, but try to be a little more gracious in victory guys. You could at least afford that to the losing fans.

AHAHAHAHAha!!!!!
Must feel nice to have been wrong.

Spain vs Russia could be a brilliant, open game

http://www.setantasports.com/upload/Sport/Football/Euro%202008/Spain/fabregas_turn-356.jpg

I actually wanted Italy to go trough, but Spain also deserves it so, well done!

Russia vs Spain match will be awesome ;)

n i think Russia can win against Spain ..

Something needs to be done about kicking the ball out when somebody is "hurt". I'm not sure what should be done, but it's getting ******* ridiculous.

Something needs to be done about kicking the ball out when somebody is "hurt". I'm not sure what should be done, but it's getting ******* ridiculous.

Just keep going and ignore the ref if you have to. If the player is truly hurt, deal with it when there is a break in play, even if that break in play comes after a goal.

Make it mandatory to kick the ball out...for some reason they no longer use that rule.

Make it mandatory to kick the ball out...for some reason they no longer use that rule.
And rightly so... it was abused way too much. Players asking for play to be stopped for every contact. F*ck that, play on man.

and most of the time, player hurt is all the way on the other end of the pitch, or away from their goal in midfield. it's not like he could have helped stop the fast break going the other way. they need to start carding for **** like that. treat it like a dive. it happened 3 times in this game. criminal.

I think carding the player is too harsh, just ignore it and let play continue. Otherwise we'll be lucky if we even have any players on the field to finish off the game.

The 6/22 Curse - on this day, Spain endured the following 3 results:

Spain eliminated from Mexico '86 (World Cup) on penalties in QF
Spain eliminated from EURO (England) '96 on penalties in QF
Spain eliminated from Japan/South Korea 2002 (World Cup) on penalties in QF

*On all 3 occassions, the team that beat Spain (in the QF) lost in the next round.

Finally, Spain wins QF of EURO (Austria/Switzerland) 2008 on penalties in QF

Torres had an awful (Italy with 2 holding midfielders) game while Cesc Fabregas was largely contained for the 60 mins he got.....

But why all the sour grapes and hypocrisy in this thread? Chill out.

after reading this entire thread, i have to say i'm rather disgusted with some of the spanish contingent. seriously, show some class. this thread has cemented some of the reasoning in my mind as to why i don't frequent these forums as much as i have in the past. it's just all hate and the intelligent posts(posters) get washed away in all the bull****. not cool.

as for what really mattered on this day, i have to say the team with the better approach deserved their victory. ugly match for anyone who watched it, i really don't believe the spanish played that well(don't worry italy obviously didn't play better). but they won ugly, something they haven't been able to do in seemingly forever, so good on them for pulling one out. obviously frustrated by the italian defending, all they could do was shoot from 25+ yards. leaving the italians only to wait for a passing error to turn it into a harmless counter. just sloppy all the way around.

can't defend italy on this day, without pirlo in the midfield it was obvious we missed creativity, flow and overall quality. no support to toni or cassano. our strategy on sending the long ball into toni was pitifull. donadoni is just not on this level of coaching yet, maybe one day but definitely not this tournament.

camoranesi's inclusion in the 2nd was an obvious spark and we carved out probably the best chances of the game sadly. but it was all for not as no momentum was created by either team because of the constant fouling.

funny thing is, this game was so bad, it sucks rehashing it. nothing concrete to argue or even discuss.

Ah football. The game that unites the people of the World huh?

True, the Italians were super negative, and the extent of their negativity even shocked our Italian fans on this forum. So don't take it out on these guys, they had no say in their teams tactics.

So ok, their team was awful, but I still wanna say to the fans on here, hard luck fellas, really.

Spain? Congrats to the Spanish fans in here of course. Not surprised by the amount of diving going on by Torres, Villa and the rest, only dissapointed that with all the plaudits these players are drawing they still think cheating in front of the whole World is acceptable.

I hate divers, and I've had to put up with a few at Chelsea believe me. They are the lowest of the low and I just cannot respect any player who does that. I certainly would not want any more at my club either.

The Italians were no angels either. In particular I was pretty disgusted by the way that Di Natale crawled back onto the pitch to stop a Spanish attack. That was just shameful.

So congrats to the Spanish fans because I know that you never expected to go through, but try to be a little more gracious in victory guys. You could at least afford that to the losing fans.

well spoken my friend.

COMMERCIAL :

Carlsberg doesn't call football coaches idiots ...but if it would , they would probably be right
Donadoni ...probably the worst football coach in the world

Its been over 24 years of frustration Modena, surely you would understand if you country had undergone such frustrating run of results, but you wouldnt at this point Italy has performed rather well over the pas 20 years in international competitions, including three world cup finals and one trophy...And actually if you count the fact that our only trophy was in 64 now you just compounded a further 20 years on an already frustrating set of events...

Luck has seldom smiled on Spain on these big competitions, and even today to a great extend luck smiled on Italy all the way to the dead...I dont justify people cussing Italy out and all that, because I myself have Italian relatives, but at least understand how much relief there is over the whole of Spain and indeed with us Spanish fans. its been years of watching our clubs perform superbly but watching our NT stink up the joint when it counts and specially against Italy

Hahaha, wat a ****ty match. I watched it in a cafe where I had a party and we were all rooting for SPain. Haha it was great.

...this thread has cemented some of the reasoning in my mind as to why i don't frequent these forums as much as i have in the past. .....

Ah, that's dissapointing to hear. You gotta shake it off man.....

Its been over 24 years of frustration Modena, surely you would understand if you country had undergone such frustrating run of results, but you wouldnt at this point Italy has performed rather well over the pas 20 years in international competitions, including three world cup finals and one trophy...And actually if you count the fact that our only trophy was in 64 now you just compounded a further 20 years on an already frustrating set of events...


i can definitely understand that. it has been a very long time of compounded frustration and disappointment for the spanish NT but all the garbage uttered in this thread, and even in other threads leading up to this game, is more shocking than the actual game. even before the game was won or even played, reading all that **** was infuriating.

on a different note, the one thing that probably pissed me off the most about this debacle of a tournament was the fact that even though this wasn't the most impressive italian side we still had the quality to win. in qualifying and friendlies we played well in both defence and offence but it seemed the occassion of euro put donadoni in a shell. maybe this was compounded by the loss to the dutch, who knows. but i do think that donadoni was not outcoached by his opposition rather himself. now i can only pray for a quality new coach and a much needed youth movement.

one positive i take out of this tournament was the play of giorgio chiellini. he was unreal today vs the potent spanish attack who we made invisible. i can only pray he keeps up this play because the options in central defence for the future are bleak behind him and andrea barzagli.

All of the garbage? Like the actual historical examples that I began this topic with?

I don't care who I offend anymore. I've seen Italy win repeatedly over the years when they've been outplayed, when they've cheated, and when they've clearly played for PK's. At the same time I've seen Spain put together an incredible team and then choke. I am ecstatic with today's outcome. It's been a long time coming.

http://www.marca.com/fotogalerias/2008/eurocopa2008/penales_italia/fotos/02.jpg

On a more analyitical note:

- Aragones nearly sunk us by subbing out Xavi for Cesc. Cesc slowed us down tremendously in spite of his quality. Luckily he scored the winning PK or it would have been truly regrettable.
- I don't know how Güiza won the pichichi this year. He is so far below our quality. I don't know why Aragones put him in.
- Italy played most of the match hoping for PK's... this was probably their best bet considering Pirlo's creative absence, but it was wonderful nonetheless that this tactic backfired.
- Another poor performance by Sergio Ramos as well.
-For those saying this was a boring match, you can hardly blame it on the Spanish. We had massive amounts of posession in the first half but spent it looking at 7-8 Italian players defending. Very hard to penetrate.

My celebratory rum is getting to my head :). Time to stop writing.

Very good yellow card for David Villa. Disgraceful dive!

Luca Toni is a little b*tch as well. A huge man like him falls at every little tap on the shin pads with an expression of being boned up the ass by a tree stump.

Congratulations to Spain, I was pleasantly surprised to see them go through, and this is coming from someone who generally supports the opposing team. This should make an interesting semi final, I'm sure Russia won't make the same mistake.

This Russia team we are going to face Thursday is a much different team from the one we thrashed. It will be tough. They look impressive indeed. Don't get any big ideas about another 4-1 or similar score guys!

OK, we all know about the Italians playing 10 men behind the ball so why all this talk about both teams not wanting to take chances, bla bla bla? Believe me Spain are not Italy. we have the talent to take it to people. We don't sit back and hang out. C'mon, you can take 10 strangers from the streets and line them up behind the ball and chances are theyll defend decently! Italy doesnt know how to play another way. IMO, they are not talented enough to play a flowing short pass technical game. They showed up wanting pk's and they got it. I think its time to realize that their catennacio style is way outdated and does an overall diservice to football fans everywhere.

On another note, I am surprised there isnt more talk about that son of a (k)unt ref! I mean, he was either 1, paid off by Italy or 2, just absolute rubbish! Either way, he doesn't deserve to ever officiate a half important match anymore. Perhaps working in a pub league, but thats it. He nearly caused us the game! Sorry, but we had at the very least, 1 penalty that was ignored. I was appauled by his appointment for this match.

i can definitely understand that. it has been a very long time of compounded frustration and disappointment for the spanish NT but all the garbage uttered in this thread, and even in other threads leading up to this game, is more shocking than the actual game. even before the game was won or even played, reading all that **** was infuriating.

on a different note, the one thing that probably pissed me off the most about this debacle of a tournament was the fact that even though this wasn't the most impressive italian side we still had the quality to win. in qualifying and friendlies we played well in both defence and offence but it seemed the occassion of euro put donadoni in a shell. maybe this was compounded by the loss to the dutch, who knows. but i do think that donadoni was not outcoached by his opposition rather himself. now i can only pray for a quality new coach and a much needed youth movement.

one positive i take out of this tournament was the play of giorgio chiellini. he was unreal today vs the potent spanish attack who we made invisible. i can only pray he keeps up this play because the options in central defence for the future are bleak behind him and andrea barzagli.

I hope that when you say "this debacle of a tournament" you're talking about Italy's performance, because Euro 2008 has been pretty much exciting in my view, far better than the last WC and all sides remaining play positive football, even Turkey (when the stoppage time comes...).

YESSSSSSSSSSSSS!

For once fair play comes out on top. I hope Di Natale fully felt that miss, the c*nt, maybe that will teach him a lesson or two about diving like a shameless bitch which the whole Italian team were (with a few exceptions).

Congrats to Spain!

i don't know why people are hating on di natale. when he went down with his "injury", and obviously i use the word injury lightly, he was obviously tackled late, just as david silva was. he took a knee right into his thigh, they even showed it again in slow motion. lucky it wasn't a charlie horse.

and again why are the italians being singled out for diving. torres and villa were shameful bitches just like any italian player who embelished, yet for some reason people single out italy and forget the rest. btw, it was villa who took the dispicable dive in the box and was rightly booked.

and the whole italy scoring late and being lucky is humorous at best.

OK, we all know about the Italians playing 10 men behind the ball so why all this talk about both teams not wanting to take chances, bla bla bla? Believe me Spain are not Italy. we have the talent to take it to people. We don't sit back and hang out. C'mon, you can take 10 strangers from the streets and line them up behind the ball and chances are theyll defend decently! Italy doesnt know how to play another way. IMO, they are not talented enough to play a flowing short pass technical game. They showed up wanting pk's and they got it. I think its time to realize that their catennacio style is way outdated and does an overall diservice to football fans everywhere.

On another note, I am surprised there isnt more talk about that son of a (k)unt ref! I mean, he was either 1, paid off by Italy or 2, just absolute rubbish! Either way, he doesn't deserve to ever officiate a half important match anymore. Perhaps working in a pub league, but thats it. He nearly caused us the game! Sorry, but we had at the very least, 1 penalty that was ignored. I was appauled by his appointment for this match.

look man, u've already won, at least try to celebrate more rather than complain about past decisions. What goes around comes around, the Italians paid the price for going for the penalty shoot-out(which was their gameplan).
But I have to say the two best chances fell to Italy, who were defending luckily fate denied them a goal.
Congrats Spaniards, u guys suffered long enough but there's still an incredible team to come.

cheers

Hope Russia will win EURO 2008 . They diserve more than Spain .

Di Natale... Man what a bitch. I was so happy to see him miss the penalty.

Glad that Spain won, but they're gonna have a hard time trying to beat Russia. Hopefully they don't underestimate them because of the first match. The Russians will definitely be fired up for the rematch, should be a good one.

Even though we've had our past differences, Modena speaks the truth here, man. I'm mystified as to why the Italians are being solely condemned for flopping considering the fact that the Spaniards were the more egregious and flagrant of the two by a wide margin. Everytime they got within inches of the box, they were flopping heavily without fail and instantly petitioning the refs for a penalty.....I mean, look at that backwards dive that Ramos did on that corner kick chance....as much as I love the kid, when I saw him noticeably seeking out a penalty like that, I wanted to take a razor to my throat.....I was that revolted......A lot of folks out there just have deep-seated, bordering on the psychotic level of hatred for the Italian NT, I suppose.


Anyway, enough of that.....for a Spain/Italy clash, the game was comparatively clean and without much drama and deceitfulness.


In the end, the Spaniards were by far the better squad. They were the aggressors and the architects of the more dangerous and meaningful goalscoring opportunities. It was pretty obvious to distinguish who wanted to end the game in regular time and who was content to settle it in penalties.

Donadoni's choice in starters was horrible, and as a result, their attack was generally third-rate while the Spaniards were full of vigor and imagination, I thought. It was really strange to watch someone who was soo intelligent and offensively gifted as a player be so unimaginative and foolish as a coach. Why was Perrotta stupidly slotted in Totti's position when he's only a holding midfielder/DM, why was Cassano even on the roster, let alone seeing some major playing minutes, what was with this easily subduable formation and why the **** didnt Quags get more playing time?


The overall superior squad is moving on. I don't think that Italy was deserving to get out of the group stages with that lousy effort yesterday, man.

MOTM.......Silva. I don't profess to know much about the Spanish league outside of Barca and Real, so I'm not too familiar with this kid, but he is just supremely gifted, man. He was wreaking great havoc on the Italians every time he got a whiff of the ball....he's explosive, he's flair-filled and just so awesome to watch, man....reminds me a lot of Modric both in his stature and immense skill level.

i don't know why people are hating on di natale. when he went down with his "injury", and obviously i use the word injury lightly, he was obviously tackled late, just as david silva was. he took a knee right into his thigh, they even showed it again in slow motion. lucky it wasn't a charlie horse.

and again why are the italians being singled out for diving. torres and villa were shameful bitches just like any italian player who embelished, yet for some reason people single out italy and forget the rest. btw, it was villa who took the dispicable dive in the box and was rightly booked.

and the whole italy scoring late and being lucky is humorous at best.

Di Natale was injured off the field and he got inside the pitch so the Spanish would kick the ball out of play, that's why. As for Villa, it didnt look like a dive, nor it was a penalty. For me he lost his balance and fell.

Looked like a clear dive to me but, either way, he should have made an effort to stay on his feet.

Now, I'd like to know EXACTLY WHEN Fernando Torres was guilty of DIVING. A lot of you guys are lumping him into the conversation with Villa. Now, I missed the entire 1st half but watched the rest of the game and, from what I saw, he was talking a lot to the Italians and getting into verbal arguments with them......but I can't remember him diving or twirling around and landing on the grass!!! I clearly remember Ramos and Villa but can't recall WHEN Torres was guilty of it. Either I missed it (quite a good possibility because I was, at times, half asleep during the 2nd half) or you're mistakenly interpretinging his verbal confrontations as twirling/tossing.........

Torres never dove. I believe his time in England has helped because he was quite the actor when he played for Atletico.

Say what you will about the Spanish players, nobody was more guilty of diving last night than Luca Toni. Not even close.

Even though we've had our past differences, Modena speaks the truth here, man. I'm mystified as to why the Italians are being solely condemned for flopping considering the fact that the Spaniards were the more egregious and flagrant of the two by a wide margin. Everytime they got within inches of the box, they were flopping heavily without fail and instantly petitioning the refs for a penalty.....I mean, look at that backwards dive that Ramos did on that corner kick chance....as much as I love the kid, when I saw him noticeably seeking out a penalty like that, I wanted to take a razor to my throat.....I was that revolted......A lot of folks out there just have deep-seated, bordering on the psychotic level of hatred for the Italian NT, I suppose.


Anyway, enough of that.....for a Spain/Italy clash, the game was comparatively clean and without much drama and deceitfulness.


In the end, the Spaniards were by far the better squad. They were the aggressors and the architects of the more dangerous and meaningful goalscoring opportunities. It was pretty obvious to distinguish who wanted to end the game in regular time and who was content to settle it in penalties.

Donadoni's choice in starters was horrible, and as a result, their attack was generally third-rate while the Spaniards were full of vigor and imagination, I thought. It was really strange to watch someone who was soo intelligent and offensively gifted as a player be so unimaginative and foolish as a coach. Why was Perrotta stupidly slotted in Totti's position when he's only a holding midfielder/DM, why was Cassano even on the roster, let alone seeing some major playing minutes, what was with this easily subduable formation and why the **** didnt Quags get more playing time?


The overall superior squad is moving on. I don't think that Italy was deserving to get out of the group stages with that lousy effort yesterday, man.

MOTM.......Silva. I don't profess to know much about the Spanish league outside of Barca and Real, so I'm not too familiar with this kid, but he is just supremely gifted, man. He was wreaking great havoc on the Italians every time he got a whiff of the ball....he's explosive, he's flair-filled and just so awesome to watch, man....reminds me a lot of Modric both in his stature and immense skill level.


IMO, you are wrong here. No matter who is on the pitch, Italy always landscape. 10 men behind the ball, back passes to goalie, fouls, etc. Thats their style. They don't know how to play differently. Everyone is blaming Donadoni instead of the real reason which is the overall Italian mindset and their approach and views on football!

I just don't understand how a team can go into a quarterfinal wanting to go into pk's. It boggles the mind especially when you have an outstanding keeper in Casillas in goal!!! I wonder if this is a wakeup call to Italian football.

OK, on to Russia. Like Ive said, this is a different Russia than the first match. They will be super motivated and come out strong. Dont look for them to hang out like the Italians. I expect them to come charging. I hope our defensive line shapes up because if not, it'll be a long game.

Well, they had Buffon in goal so penalties wouldn't have scared Italy as much either, but I don't think they wanted it. Pirlo's injury forced a defensive strategy, that's all.

As far as the overall Italian mindset being defensive is concerned, I enjoyed Italy 4-0 Ukraine in the 2006 WC QF and I'm sure you did too.

Hold on a second, is that the norm or was that an exception?....Cause we all know that Italy dont normaly put 4 past anybody...so dont act like yesterday's game was some sort of anomaly, that is how Italy has played for years....its not by coincidence that when we want to talk about an ultra defensive style we call it Cattennaccio...by the name its creators gave it..

From what I recall reading/hearing, through various media outlets in June 2006, was that Italy were FINALLY getting rid of that style of play, so I assumed* that 4-0 was indicative of that trend reversal. Furthermore, they did play some pretty decent games in EURO qualifying, thereby reinforcing (in my mind anyway) the media's message. So with that in mind, for me, this entire tournament has been an anomaly for Italy.

*I know assumptions are the brother of all ****-ups, but I made one nonetheless to get myself to sit through a FULL 90 mins of Italy's WC games.....

Well, they had Buffon in goal so penalties wouldn't have scared Italy as much either, but I don't think they wanted it. Pirlo's injury forced a defensive strategy, that's all.

As far as the overall Italian mindset being defensive is concerned, I enjoyed Italy 4-0 Ukraine in the 2006 WC QF and I'm sure you did too.
I think you mean SPAIN's 4-0 win over the Ukraine in the 2006 WC Group Stage, which truly was an offensive exhibition.

Italy beat the Ukraine 3-0 in those quarterfinals, but it was by no means an offensive match on their part. The Ukraine had the lion's share of the possession that match, Italy just put away their chances. And come on, it's the Ukraine. The Swiss almost knocked them out that year.

Sorry, yeah I guess it was 3-0 not 4-0 for Italy.

Only 1 word:

GODO:skip_e:(Y):33vff3o::D;)

????

????

It means that ok I'm italian but I hate national italian team, I support Germany in international football and I like Spain very much.......:tongue:

Holy ****, italian is specific.

under lippi it was starting to look like we were gonna shake the "catenaccio" tag but in this tourney it came back because donadoni **** his pants the first game.

if anyone watched WC06, the italians played some very attractive football. the germany game, although 0-0 after 118 mins, was an instant classic. amazing match to watch. we should have destroyed the aussies with the chances we had, not to mention the phantom red to matrix, the grosso dive(even though there was contact) was justice to the red. we made simple work of the ukraine early, so yeah they had some possession late so maybe the scoreline should have been 3-1. in the final, the first half was a joy to watch. the 2nd and ET were bad at times but we just didn't have as good of legs as the french(african) midfield.

i hope that our next coach adapts a more complete all around game like lippi did. who knows maybe in the future we will have a foreign coach to shake things up.

i hope that our next coach adapts a more complete all around game like lippi did. who knows maybe in the future we will have a foreign coach to shake things up.

You should try Raymond he will be free in few days....

thanks God Spain went through... I hate Italy so much.

My thoughts on Spain:
Spain's best players so far: Silva, Iniesta and Casillas. Most midfield is doing pretty well. Torres and Villa were great on the first game but since then i havent really seen much from neither of them. Torres was a huge disappointment on this last game. Guiza: what the **** is he playing?

Senna has been improving, he played mediocre on the first two games. So far Cazorla and Cesc have worked well as substitutes although Cesc didnt really do much against Italy. Capdevilla has been doing good too, and unlike Ramos he is up there only when needed. Puyol: nothing to complain about, hes been doing great. Marchena.. hmm, nothing to coplain about neither. Xavi was really good on the first two games but was pretty lame on the last one. Alonso has only played once I think but he was amazing.

And well.. Aragones of whom I thought as a prick but has lead Spain to where it is now. Short pointless passes being used are a bit frustrating... especially when the ball is being held in the back mainly by Marchena, Senna and puyol.


:skip_e:

Well, they had Buffon in goal so penalties wouldn't have scared Italy as much either, but I don't think they wanted it. Pirlo's injury forced a defensive strategy, that's all.

As far as the overall Italian mindset being defensive is concerned, I enjoyed Italy 4-0 Ukraine in the 2006 WC QF and I'm sure you did too.

You're talking about one game, but in that WC Italy were outplayed by Ghana, USA, Germany and got their asses handed on plate by France. They beat a very inferior Ukraine and struggled to beat Australia, managing to win 1-0 thanks to a dive by Grosso.

As for their tactics, Pirlo in the pitch or not do you really believe Italy would've played offensively?

You're talking about one game, but in that WC Italy were outplayed by Ghana, USA, Germany and got their asses handed on plate by France. They beat a very inferior Ukraine and struggled to beat Australia, managing to win 1-0 thanks to a dive by Grosso.

As for their tactics, Pirlo in the pitch or not do you really believe Italy would've played offensively?

8|

Ouch, my brain hurts. Outplayed by Ghana, what game were you watching? Italy created more chances, Toni hit the crossbar and Perrota had a good chance denied by an in-form Ghanaian goalie. Ghana only created one dangerous chance that game and it was a shot from Essien that was saved by Buffon.

In the USA game, Italy went ahead, then pretty much immediately went a man down before Zaccardo forgot a how a ball is properly cleared and put the ball in his own net. We scored for the USA, and I very much doubt they would have even threatened our goal that game. After the sending off of De Rossi is what an ugly game on the part of both teams.

Australia, again, Italy was playing well had had created the better chances until Materazzi got sent off for tackling his own team-mate. As for Grosso, please, nobody deny there wasn't contact, because there clearly was. Yeah, he went down lightly, I'll give you that, but it was justification for the ridiculous sending off of Materazzi. Italy had been in control most of the match before the sending off and Australia still struggled to score despite being up a man for much of the second half.

For most of the match, Italy vs. Germany was even. Action packed, end to end stuff, both teams creating chances, not to many bad passes. Except in overtime, when Italy started to pin the German defense and started to attack because it was obvious Italy didn't want penalties. Don't forgot that both Gilardino and Zambrotta hit the post and crossbar respectively. Italy were relentess and didn't give up and scored two goals right at the end. A fully deserved win by an Italian team that didn't surrender.

Handed our asses to us on a plate by France? Is coming back from 1-0 down and a having a legit goal disallowed count as having our asses handed to us? To be honest, both teams didn't look that lively the entire match and it was far from spectacular. That final will be remembered for its drama, not the football that was played.

:rolleyes:

Its hard for people to judge a team if they hate the team so much, so bear in mind whatever Italy do, they can't seem to convince people(who hate them) that they do other things besides defending and diving in a football match......
Its like trying to convince Utd fans that City owned their arses last season.
For Italy, the label has been tagged on them, I do agree that they played better football in WC06 compared to this tournament. But they didn't play any worse than Greece 04. And their diving? well, i have to say almost every team has its fair share of divers these days, so what the heck. but Toni was an exception. lol

I think the retirement of Totti and Nesta really hurt them. And they should've included someone like Pippo in the squad, Cassano was really disappointing.
But as we all agree, Spain were the ones that took the initiative in this game so of course going to penalties they were more confident than one would suspect.
Bottom line, Spain fully deserved the victory, Italians need mass rebuilding, bring in the likes of Rossi, Borriello and heck bring in Bolatelli.

btw, watching back the highlights I have to say Senna was really impressive, like a Makelele but with better shooting skills. With someone like him in the team, Spain could go all the way.

under lippi it was starting to look like we were gonna shake the "catenaccio" tag but in this tourney it came back because donadoni **** his pants the first game.

if anyone watched WC06, the italians played some very attractive football. the germany game, although 0-0 after 118 mins, was an instant classic. amazing match to watch. we should have destroyed the aussies with the chances we had, not to mention the phantom red to matrix, the grosso dive(even though there was contact) was justice to the red. we made simple work of the ukraine early, so yeah they had some possession late so maybe the scoreline should have been 3-1. in the final, the first half was a joy to watch. the 2nd and ET were bad at times but we just didn't have as good of legs as the french(african) midfield.

i hope that our next coach adapts a more complete all around game like lippi did. who knows maybe in the future we will have a foreign coach to shake things up.

Italy should have lost against the Aussies but the ref was too scared or paid off! It was bollocks and everyone knows it.

Italy should have lost against the Aussies but the ref was too scared or paid off! It was bollocks and everyone knows it.

Right the Italians paid the ref off so much they told him to send off Materazzi for tackling his own team-mate just so they could sneak the Grosso-not-so-much-a-dive under the radar so nobody would suspect that those greasy Italians paid the ref off. Well it's a shame it didn't work so well, because nothing really gets past you does it, OrgulloIdioto? I mean, if you could see what nobody else could see, what are you doing here on soccergaming? It's obvious you're more suited to be a detective than a measely forum-goer. But you've settled for the latter, damn shame. But instead you've decided to post away and make yourself look a ******* idiot. Go put those awesome detective skills you have and get as far away from this forum as you can.

You should try Raymond he will be free in few days....

i'd rather cheer for portugal then have domenech as our coach. (H)

You're talking about one game, but in that WC Italy were outplayed by Ghana, USA, Germany and got their asses handed on plate by France. They beat a very inferior Ukraine and struggled to beat Australia, managing to win 1-0 thanks to a dive by Grosso.

HA. that's all that deserves

You should try Raymond he will be free in few days....

i would rather cheer for portugal then have domenech even be interviewed for the position. (H)

WTF is going here mates

I hate Italy, I hate this, talk about football and no for nation or country please.

I say that I dont like Italian football, but I like Italian people (even though it's not here place to talk about that).

...Ouch, my brain hurts. Outplayed by Ghana, what game were you watching? Italy created more chances, Toni hit the crossbar and Perrota had a good chance denied by an in-form Ghanaian goalie. Ghana only created one dangerous chance that game and it was a shot from Essien that was saved by Buffon.

In the USA game, Italy went ahead, then pretty much immediately went a man down before Zaccardo forgot a how a ball is properly cleared and put the ball in his own net. We scored for the USA, and I very much doubt they would have even threatened our goal that game. After the sending off of De Rossi is what an ugly game on the part of both teams.

Australia, again, Italy was playing well had had created the better chances until Materazzi got sent off for tackling his own team-mate. As for Grosso, please, nobody deny there wasn't contact, because there clearly was. Yeah, he went down lightly, I'll give you that, but it was justification for the ridiculous sending off of Materazzi. Italy had been in control most of the match before the sending off and Australia still struggled to score despite being up a man for much of the second half.

For most of the match, Italy vs. Germany was even. Action packed, end to end stuff, both teams creating chances, not to many bad passes. Except in overtime, when Italy started to pin the German defense and started to attack because it was obvious Italy didn't want penalties. Don't forgot that both Gilardino and Zambrotta hit the post and crossbar respectively. Italy were relentess and didn't give up and scored two goals right at the end. A fully deserved win by an Italian team that didn't surrender.

Handed our asses to us on a plate by France? Is coming back from 1-0 down and a having a legit goal disallowed count as having our asses handed to us? To be honest, both teams didn't look that lively the entire match and it was far from spectacular. That final will be remembered for its drama, not the football that was played....

Agreed....well said!:33vff3o::33vff3o::33vff3o:

Right the Italians paid the ref off so much they told him to send off Materazzi for tackling his own team-mate just so they could sneak the Grosso-not-so-much-a-dive under the radar so nobody would suspect that those greasy Italians paid the ref off. Well it's a shame it didn't work so well, because nothing really gets past you does it, OrgulloIdioto? I mean, if you could see what nobody else could see, what are you doing here on soccergaming? It's obvious you're more suited to be a detective than a measely forum-goer. But you've settled for the latter, damn shame. But instead you've decided to post away and make yourself look a ******* idiot. Go put those awesome detective skills you have and get as far away from this forum as you can.

Funny stuff (H) It's "Orgullopendejo" btw ;) Try to understand man. He's got **** for brains. This thread should be closed.

That ref was horrid. Only 2 excuses were #1, he was paid, #2, hes just useless. Either way he should never ref again

why are you the only one who has said anything about the ref.

imo, the ref called too many fouls not allowing a good flow to the game. he was spot on with simulation, for both sides. he did a good job of asserting himself early so there were no stupid tackles leading to bookings. overall i thought he did an adequate job. nothing really to complain about from either side.

and to those penalty appeals, even john helm said "if it were outside the box it would have been a foul, but inside its just play on", or something to that nature. but i don't blame the ref if he "missed" one, spain were flopping in the box a couple times. and if there is something i've learned from watching our NT, is don't cry wolf too many times.

and i thnk it was newbie who said "when did torres dive"? off the top of my head, he dove when someone backed into him and he flopped on the spot. not sure what player it was against though.

Everybody flops in modern football unfortunately. I mean think about it how many players outthere do you know that dont dive....exactly we have to count them in one hand because frankly almost no one is free of guilt...In the premiership diving is less pervassive cause ref's let the play go on, but they still do it. In Uruguay for example players admit that as part of their upbringing they are thought to dive and act out fouls...it is shameful, but that is the way the game is now. And if i had to name five NT that dive for a living then Italy, Argentina, Spain (yes Spain) Portugal and Uruguay have to come to mind.... the only way to stop it is if ref's stayed consistent and stop calling it as they do all the time

under lippi it was starting to look like we were gonna shake the "catenaccio" tag but in this tourney it came back because donadoni **** his pants the first game.

if anyone watched WC06, the italians played some very attractive football. the germany game, although 0-0 after 118 mins, was an instant classic. amazing match to watch. we should have destroyed the aussies with the chances we had, not to mention the phantom red to matrix, the grosso dive(even though there was contact) was justice to the red. we made simple work of the ukraine early, so yeah they had some possession late so maybe the scoreline should have been 3-1. in the final, the first half was a joy to watch. the 2nd and ET were bad at times but we just didn't have as good of legs as the french(african) midfield.

i hope that our next coach adapts a more complete all around game like lippi did. who knows maybe in the future we will have a foreign coach to shake things up.


lol i give you this trans-alpine "brother" italy's style works if it didn't you wouldn't have as many cups as you have, but don't EVER kid yourself into thinking your NT will play attacking football EVER, because you just don't know how to do that, you know how to defend, and SOME of you know how to counter but that's about it, attacking football is something you fail to do, YES you bore everybody and their mothers in a football match, when you say "beautiful displays of attacking football" all the world sees is counter attacking football after parking 11 behind the ball so don't ever think you play or have played at any moment in time attacking football, it's not in your blood. african midfield my balls, be happy that you lucked out during 06 finals because the coin can always land both ways and this time it landed Spain's way. During our last final we both played defensive ****ty football to our dismay, and to your pride, when Italy wins something you rub it on peoples faces while the rest of the world can finally rest from watching such boring displays of football so don't ever think otherwise and enjoy whatever you have achieved these last few years and let the Spaniards party on, because at least they produce football instead of defending and forcing PKs.

The ref had a piss poor game. Any one thinking otherwise is blind. It was fact that it was a horridly called game. end of story

C'mon, that's not true. The ref did an OK-job. No big mistakes really. Perhaps he should've let the game flow better, not stopping the game so often, but no real mistakes. Only real mistake I saw from him, I guess, was booking Villa for diving, when he just lost his balance.

And if you're so-*******-convinced that he was horrible, should never be a ref again, because of that match, then atleast back your opinions up somehow, giving examples of situations where he sucked.

Opinions without arguments are as useless as Blatter.

Fabregas gets all the plaudits for his winning penalty?? ?Wtf?? shouldnt cassillas be classified as the hero??? the media is just dumb!

C'mon, that's not true. The ref did an OK-job. No big mistakes really. Perhaps he should've let the game flow better, not stopping the game so often, but no real mistakes. Only real mistake I saw from him, I guess, was booking Villa for diving, when he just lost his balance.

And if you're so-*******-convinced that he was horrible, should never be a ref again, because of that match, then atleast back your opinions up somehow, giving examples of situations where he sucked.

Opinions without arguments are as useless as Blatter.

One penalty not called in Spains favor and a few right outside the box (like 3 of em). also he called fouls for the same type of situations he ignored at the other end. Very inconsistant. etc, etc. The ref was piss poor mate! Perhaps you should see the game again. And Im not the only one who thinks so, Im just the only one bringing it up. and actually, I saw the game twice. Once in Spanish and once in English and even the commentators were appauled by his job!

under lippi it was starting to look like we were gonna shake the "catenaccio" tag but in this tourney it came back because donadoni **** his pants the first game.

if anyone watched WC06, the italians played some very attractive football. the germany game, although 0-0 after 118 mins, was an instant classic. amazing match to watch. we should have destroyed the aussies with the chances we had, not to mention the phantom red to matrix, the grosso dive(even though there was contact) was justice to the red. we made simple work of the ukraine early, so yeah they had some possession late so maybe the scoreline should have been 3-1. in the final, the first half was a joy to watch. the 2nd and ET were bad at times but we just didn't have as good of legs as the french(african) midfield.

i hope that our next coach adapts a more complete all around game like lippi did. who knows maybe in the future we will have a foreign coach to shake things up.


WTF? Is it really necessary to point out where their heritage lies, man? It's really prejudiced and derisive because you're insinuating that they'll never be seen as being authentically French as the Caucasian inhabitants of France no matter how long they've lived there or have been speaking the language....you make it sound like they were expediently naturalized minutes before the tourney started or something......sh!t ain't right....or maybe I'm getting a little too sensitive in my old age?.....hmm

WTF? Is it really necessary to point out where their heritage lies, man? It's really prejudiced and derisive because you're insinuating that they'll never be seen as being authentically French as the Caucasian inhabitants of France no matter how long they've lived there or have been speaking the language....you make it sound like they were expediently naturalized minutes before the tourney started or something......sh!t ain't right....or maybe I'm getting a little too sensitive in my old age?.....hmm

your right yoss, i apologize. just a poke at the french. whether it was in the heat of the argument or whatever, i was wrong to say it.

One penalty not called in Spains favor and a few right outside the box (like 3 of em). also he called fouls for the same type of situations he ignored at the other end. Very inconsistant. etc, etc. The ref was piss poor mate! Perhaps you should see the game again. And Im not the only one who thinks so, Im just the only one bringing it up. and actually, I saw the game twice. Once in Spanish and once in English and even the commentators were appauled by his job!

those are not examples. give situations with players in the game.

lol i give you this trans-alpine "brother" italy's style works if it didn't you wouldn't have as many cups as you have, but don't EVER kid yourself into thinking your NT will play attacking football EVER, because you just don't know how to do that, you know how to defend, and SOME of you know how to counter but that's about it, attacking football is something you fail to do, YES you bore everybody and their mothers in a football match, when you say "beautiful displays of attacking football" all the world sees is counter attacking football after parking 11 behind the ball so don't ever think you play or have played at any moment in time attacking football, it's not in your blood. african midfield my balls, be happy that you lucked out during 06 finals because the coin can always land both ways and this time it landed Spain's way. During our last final we both played defensive ****ty football to our dismay, and to your pride, when Italy wins something you rub it on peoples faces while the rest of the world can finally rest from watching such boring displays of football so don't ever think otherwise and enjoy whatever you have achieved these last few years and let the Spaniards party on, because at least they produce football instead of defending and forcing PKs.

bitter much?

and yes, you hit the nail on the head. we have never played attacking football.....ever.:rofl:(Y)

your right yoss, i apologize. just a poke at the french. whether it was in the heat of the argument or whatever, i was wrong to say it.



those are not examples. give situations with players in the game.



bitter much?

and yes, you hit the nail on the head. we have never played attacking football.....ever.:rofl:(Y)


no i'm not bitter after all in our last peak we took you out of the WC and then out of EURO 2000, i never liked our NT under Domenech, and yeah keep hiding your "bitterness" behind :D:rofl:, but it's the truth. Italy has never been known for playing attacking football, and after watching your "amazing" displays of "attacking" football throughout the years i've come to accept that you are good at your trade which is defending and counter attacking, hence the results. But it's really lame to try and make the spaniards not feel relieved and celebrate beating the world champions Italy on PK's something Italy had been pushing for since kick off. yeah attacking football cock and balls.

Edit: african midfield, that was really rude. don't throw rocks if you live in a glass house (Camoranesi)

your right yoss, i apologize. just a poke at the french. whether it was in the heat of the argument or whatever, i was wrong to say it.



those are not examples. give situations with players in the game.



bitter much?

and yes, you hit the nail on the head. we have never played attacking football.....ever.:rofl:(Y)

Mate, did you not see the game? The ref was facking terrible. Terrible! Im sure you heard this somewhere. Perhaps you should watch more football to understand. I don't know what to tell you. If you need me towalk you through the match then you are hopeless. Ref was a piece of ****e, end of story!

Mate, did you not see the game? The ref was facking terrible. Terrible! Im sure you heard this somewhere. Perhaps you should watch more football to understand. I don't know what to tell you. If you need me towalk you through the match then you are hopeless. Ref was a piece of ****e, end of story!

ref was dodgy but not as dodgy as most refs,
e.g - in the Premiership......
maybe in your point of view as a Spanish supporter but I don't think the refereeing was as bad as you say..........

lets just move on to Russia shall we.....8|

I think OrgulloVikingo isn't allowed to judge refereeing anymore. :) He once complained that the refs let Sevilla get away with too much in a match where Madrid broke one players' nose, another players cheekbone (out for four weeks), grabbed another player by the neck, and commited a penalty, all without discipline.

oh yeah you mean that match were Sevilla kicked Guti into an injury that last till just before the Clasico....yup i remember that game....:browsmiley:

was anyone else missing someone of Totti's calibre?

was anyone else missing someone of Totti's calibre?


Pirlo>Totti

Totti wouldn't have made a difference. The only good spell he had with Italy was during Euro 2000. Besides that he was never able to translate his club form to the international level except on a few occasions. Pirlo's creativity was what was missing during the game against Spain.

Yes. His absence almost made the midfield "feel" bare.....

Pirlo>Totti

Totti wouldn't have made a difference. The only good spell he had with Italy was during Euro 2000. Besides that he was never able to translate his club form to the international level except on a few occasions. Pirlo's creativity was what was missing during the game against Spain.



bro, as much as I love Pirlo, it's ludicrous to claim that he exceedes Totti in any aspect when it comes to the offensive side of the ball. Pirlo is clearly smarter and more tactically aware, but there are a few players who carry the aura and immense game changing abilities that Totti has.....this is one of the greatest creative forces and offensive minds of our generation were talking about, man



It's entirely speculative and unprovable to say that Totti would've carried his past national team form into this competition, right? Because he could've just as easily have brought the remarkable level of play that he was putting on in the league into this competition and have had immeasurable impact on the team's overall peformance.

Bad form can always be reversed and enhanced for the better....it can just as easily be recovered as it was lost, but lack of talent can't just be modified and bettered with the snap of a finger, man.


---------------------------------Toni

-------Del Piero------------------------------Totti

------------------De Rossi------------Pirlo

--------------------------Gattuso

----Chiellini-----Canna--------Materazzi----------Zambrotta

---------------------------------Buffon



NOW THAT'S A ******* LINEUP more than capable of lifting the cup.

i will say that i missed totti. i won't compare totti and pirlo, i really can't see how you compare them. i think with both of them in the side we could have achieved some more positive football but its all hindsight. they bring completely different aspects to the game. the only real problem was finding the right system to play them together in.

honestly, i love the lineup yoss but if there is something we gotta learn from this tournament is that we need to get younger. the average age of that team is probably 31-32. i do think if we can find the right blend of experience and youth we can take a good run at WC2010.

and now with the return of the great lippi, who knows if he will hold his loyalties to the players of past successes or look to the future.

bro, as much as I love Pirlo, it's ludicrous to claim that he exceedes Totti in any aspect when it comes to the offensive side of the ball. Pirlo is clearly smarter and more tactically aware, but there are a few players who carry the aura and immense game changing abilities that Totti has.....this is one of the greatest creative forces and offensive minds of our generation were talking about, man



It's entirely speculative and unprovable to say that Totti would've carried his past national team form into this competition, right? Because he could've just as easily have brought the remarkable level of play that he was putting on in the league into this competition and have had immeasurable impact on the team's overall peformance.

Bad form can always be reversed and enhanced for the better....it can just as easily be recovered as it was lost, but lack of talent can't just be modified and bettered with the snap of a finger, man.

Totti wouldn't have changed Italy's fortunes because like I said, he could never translate his club form on the international level except on some occasions. This is the same guy who would fake injuries to skip international friendlies. There is no doubt he could have been remarkable for Italy, but he didn't want to. He cares more about Roma than Italy. So I will reiterate, Pirlo>Totti in terms effectiveness for the national team.




---------------------------------Toni

-------Del Piero------------------------------Totti

------------------De Rossi------------Pirlo

--------------------------Gattuso

----Chiellini-----Canna--------Materazzi----------Zambrotta

---------------------------------Buffon



NOW THAT'S A ******* LINEUP more than capable of lifting the cup.

Capable of winning the cup? That's a lineup that is more capable of self-destructing than winning. That line-up you got there would be just as old as the one we took to this year's Euros. Have you ever actually watched Italy play, because it's been proven time and time again that Del Piero and Totti could never co-exist on the same playing field. Even if they could, why in the hell do you have them playing wide in a 4-3-3? Totti and Del Piero are more centralized players, they could never adapt to that wide position. Del Piero even voiced his concern about where Donadoni would play him in his 4-3-3 because he wasn't used to playing that outside left in the 4-3-3.

Materazzi starting? Ha! You're an Inter fan, right? I guess you didn't watch Materazzi against the Netherlands did you? That was probably the last international game he will ever play.

Finally, you can't start both Pirlo and Totti in the same line-up. One is a deep-lying playmaker and the other is a more advanced playmaker. You can't have both in the line-up, who would play go through? Oh, and I find it absolutely hilarious you tried to compare Pirlo and Totti. Both are two completely different types of playmakers.

sorry to butt in and i agree with most of yer points but u just said, Pirlo>Totti in terms of effectiveness, or is that not a comparison?

donadoni shot himself in the foot when he changed his formation after the first game. going from 4-3-3 to 4-3-1-2. he didn't have the players for the latter formation. more or less spot players doing the best job they can do to fill in.

if totti was selected, obviously he would have been slotted just behind the strikers and would have been fine. pirlo and totti can co-exist, just look at the world cup. look at the dutch who have sneijder and van der vaart, it can work. that's why we have gattuso, de rossi etc, to clean up.

in 06, the play would go from pirlo to totti. or pirlo to either wing back. for this tournament that was probably our biggest problem. pirlo would distribute to players who could not do anything with the ball in attack.

apparently all we could do was send high balls to toni in the box and hope for the best and because of how good toni is, we had lots of chances...unfortunately no goals. in 06 we were very dangerous with this combo. almost all of our assists and attacks came from either one of their boots. that is one thing lippi did extremely well. he found a way to get our talent on the field and somehow make it work whereas other of our past coaches couldn't.

now that mr. lippi has returned, i hope for more of the same.

sorry to butt in and i agree with of yer points but u just said, Pirlo>Totti in terms of effectiveness, or is that not a comparison?

Well comparing their effectiveness for the national team, yes Pirlo>Totti, I guess I should have clarified. You can't really compare their abilities because they play two different positions. But Pirlo has always performed better than Totti on the international level.

Totti wouldn't have changed Italy's fortunes because like I said, he could never translate his club form on the international level except on some occasions. This is the same guy who would fake injuries to skip international friendlies. There is no doubt he could have been remarkable for Italy, but he didn't want to. He cares more about Roma than Italy. So I will reiterate, Pirlo>Totti in terms effectiveness for the national team.



I've come to the conclusion that you deeply loathe Totti....almost to the point where it's incorrigible no matter what he does. It wasn't my intention here to have a belaboured and unnecessarily repetitive argument about Totti's ability to carry his club form into the NT. All I know is that he's one of the best players in the World at what he does....a magnificently gifted player who is a threat from 25metres on out of the opposing goal. He's got a commanding presence about him on the pitch even when he isn't his best and this allows for other players to profit from all the attention that he receives. So if you think that he wouldn've contributed positively to the squad and eased some of the tension felt by the other players, then you're being unreasonable and willfully dishonest.

When you're selecting a squad for a NT, the only thing that you can truly go by is the player's current form in whatever league he happens to be playing in. And at the time of his injury, Totti was in peak playing form....if yer gonna make prognostications and extrapolations about how he would've fared in this tourney, then you should be drawing from his most recent condition in league action and not from the sporadic and limited play seen in international competition. You keep adamantly and stubbornly insisting that he would've duplicated the display of some of his past below expectation showings, but how do you know for a fact that this would've happened?


Put aside your personal gripe with 'em and this baseless and frankly ridiculous accusation that he puts club over country for a moment and judge him solely by his pre injury performance.....was he worthy of being a starter at that time in your eyes? If past showings was the exclusive criterion for choosing players onto a NT squad, then you'd only fill a fourth of your roster because the percentage of World class players who consistently translate their club successes into the international stage isn't all that great, man. The only thing that you can do is to survey your current talent pool, identify the players that are in the best shape and playing form and go on from there. Of course there should be other standards that must be looked at and satisfied, but first concern yourself with spotting the best players in each position prior to the tourney starting.




Capable of winning the cup? That's a lineup that is more capable of self-destructing than winning. That line-up you got there would be just as old as the one we took to this year's Euros. Have you ever actually watched Italy play, because it's been proven time and time again that Del Piero and Totti could never co-exist on the same playing field. Even if they could, why in the hell do you have them playing wide in a 4-3-3? Totti and Del Piero are more centralized players, they could never adapt to that wide position. Del Piero even voiced his concern about where Donadoni would play him in his 4-3-3 because he wasn't used to playing that outside left in the 4-3-3.

I'll concede that I follow the Serie A more closely than I do the NT. I'll watch the qualifiers if they're on, but I don''t go out of my way to seek out meaningless friendlies as I have absolutely no connection with Italy. This is just my fantasy squad that I would've chosen when the first game came around from the players available in the final roster selection with the exception of the injured, of course.

I don't agree with your absolutist and stringently narrow attitude and perception of what will work and who will not harmoniously exist together out there on the pitch. First of all, this lineup/formation that I propose is very malleable. It's not prefabricated to its drawn up form, bro. It's not a conventional 4-3-3.....DP and Totti are on the shoulders of Toni only because I wouldn't want a formation that's too centralized and narrowed down. They will be able to adjust to whatever the defence throws at them and switch the facilitating and support striker roles in a fluid manner and reposition themselves to their comfort areas whenever the action is in their immediate area.


I can't comprehend why you keep emphatically asserting that such and such player wont jell and adapt to one another as though they're some sort of highly specialized computer parts or something? Both of these players are two of the greatest and have played with some of the game's best, I don't see why they can't adjust to each other's individual qualities for the common goal of helping each other be successful? They're about as flawless offensively as you can get....what more could you want? Unless if you're privy to off the field chemistry issues that they might have? And even then, they should be mature enough to overcome their differences, I'd imagine.



Materazzi starting? Ha! You're an Inter fan, right? I guess you didn't watch Materazzi against the Netherlands did you? That was probably the last international game he will ever play.


hurhur....well, I'm hugely biased towards Materazzi, I must admit. I've been a big proponent of his for a long time, but I don't understand why you're singling him out for the whipping post for that first half performance against the Dutch. The entire team was torched and embarrassed, and the defence continued to be shaky long after he was subbed out, but I'll also concede that yes, he had a poor outing and was unjustly never allowed to redeem himself. This is a player who had a positive impact on your WC run, a man who was without a doubt the best defender in the Serie A last year, so please, don't try to belittle his contributions and quality by erroneously and unfairly putting the entire blame of that first half debacle on his shoulders.



Finally, you can't start both Pirlo and Totti in the same line-up. One is a deep-lying playmaker and the other is a more advanced playmaker. You can't have both in the line-up, who would play go through? Oh, and I find it absolutely hilarious you tried to compare Pirlo and Totti. Both are two completely different types of playmakers.




Here we go again.....your very rigidly over-the-top observations on who's compatible with who. Pirlo is the best playmaker from his position and Totti is one of the best in his role as an advanced complete attacker, but they're so multi-talented and diversified in their abilities, so where does this congruity issue of epic proportions that you're trying to paint come from? You do realize that Pirlo is just a converted (for convenience more than anything else) natural #10 a la Totti and that he used to play in the hole position before being readjusted by Ancelotti? What I'm trying to say is that they've got a lot more similarities than they do differences. Totti has progressed in the offensive side of the game, modifying himself from a playmaker, support striker and now even a lone striker if need be (there's your through man, as well as DP, of course), while Pirlo has maintained his aptitude for playmaking while in the process of developing his defensive and tactical abilities.


hmm....you argue that the team can do without Totti and that Pirlo can fill in for him in an even more effective manner, yet you curiously laugh at the thought of someone considering their similarities and differences...??? Also, let's be fair, you started this whole thing.


Anyway, in the formation that I proposed, the offense would be considerably less revolved around Toni, DP and Totti would share the through man role, Pirlo would be the director and distributor of the offense and have a more vertically surging function. Totti would have the freedom to roam and this would be more of a benefit to Pirlo than it would be a detriment because defenses would be less inclined to singularly hone in on him as the primary playmaker, you know? If you've seen how opposing squads treat Pirlo when Seedorf is out, you'd know how advantageous having someone like Totti sharing the pitch with him would be, man......I mean, Kaka and Pirlo function together extremely effectively, right? So why can't Pirlo and Totti? Clearly, Totti is nowhere near as athletic and dynamic as Kaka is, but he's more savvy and equally as gifted offensively.....he can emulate a lot of what Kaka does near the box.



Lastly, I'd like to know what your formation/lineup would've been for the first game against the Dutch. Injured or unselected players can be used for your favored squad

honestly, i love the lineup yoss but if there is something we gotta learn from this tournament is that we need to get younger. the average age of that team is probably 31-32. i do think if we can find the right blend of experience and youth we can take a good run at WC2010.

and now with the return of the great lippi, who knows if he will hold his loyalties to the players of past successes or look to the future.



you guys definitely need to get younger, but I don't think that the process should be forced and executed at the expense of older players who are still producing in at or near peak form e.g.....DP/Totti.....any up and coming talent would kill for the sort of seasons that these two guys have been putting together in their later, more advanced playing days, man.

I mean, if DP continues on with the form he's been displaying in the last 3-4yrs for the next couple of seasons, should he be relegated to the bench or even left off the South Africa squad just because the Italian NT decides to go on a mission to quickly get younger?


I realize that he hasn't been nearly as good for the NT as he's been for Juve, but I felt that he deserved better than what he got in this tournament, man. Cmon, Cassano? What the **** did that faggot ever do to be slotted ahead of DP? DI Natale? :icon_spin:

I've come to the conclusion that you deeply loathe Totti....almost to the point where it's incorrigible no matter what he does. It wasn't my intention here to have a belaboured and unnecessarily repetitive argument about Totti's ability to carry his club form into the NT. All I know is that he's one of the best players in the World at what he does....a magnificently gifted player who is a threat from 25metres on out of the opposing goal. He's got a commanding presence about him on the pitch even when he isn't his best and this allows for other players to profit from all the attention that he receives. So if you think that he wouldn've contributed positively to the squad and eased some of the tension felt by the other players, then you're being unreasonable and willfully dishonest.


I don’t loathe the guy. As a neutral fan, he’s awesome to watch. I was rooting for him and Roma to kick Inter’s ass and beat them to the scudetto when Juve was in Serie B. But as an Azzurri fan, he’s just never been able to play as well as he has for Roma save on some occasions. He would have definitely been picked for the Euro 2008 squad had he made himself available. But he has been injured lately and frankly, he'll be on the wrong side of 30 soon. Not the direction Italy needs to go in.



When you're selecting a squad for a NT, the only thing that you can truly go by is the player's current form in whatever league he happens to be playing in. And at the time of his injury, Totti was in peak playing form....if yer gonna make prognostications and extrapolations about how he would've fared in this tourney, then you should be drawing from his most recent condition in league action and not from the sporadic and limited play seen in international competition. You keep adamantly and stubbornly insisting that he would've duplicated the display of some of his past below expectation showings, but how do you know for a fact that this would've happened?


Well, obviously you have to go on a player's club form to get a good idea of how he'll fair on the international level, but that's not the only thing you can look at. You have to look at how a player has played on the international level previously. Just look at Raul, left out of the Spain squad despite having a good season for Real. Why? Because he's never played as well as he has for Spain when you compare his performances for his club. I mean even Del Piero was a last minute inclusion in Donadoni's squad despite having his best club season since god knows how long. He too, has never been able to reproduce his Juventus magic for the national team. Some players just aren't made for the international game.




Put aside your personal gripe with 'em and this baseless and frankly ridiculous accusation that he puts club over country for a moment and judge him solely by his pre injury performance.....was he worthy of being a starter at that time in your eyes? If past showings was the exclusive criterion for choosing players onto a NT squad, then you'd only fill a fourth of your roster because the percentage of World class players who consistently translate their club successes into the international stage isn't all that great, man. The only thing that you can do is to survey your current talent pool, identify the players that are in the best shape and playing form and go on from there. Of course there should be other standards that must be looked at and satisfied, but first concern yourself with spotting the best players in each position prior to the tourney starting.


It was hardly a baseless argument. A number of Azzurri fans share the opinion that Totti puts club>country. This is the guy that said the champion's league quarterfinal against Man Utd was the biggest game of his career when he had just played in the World Cup Final less then a year before. Would I have picked Totti had he not be injured? Sure, why not. Would he have played up to his world class standards? Well, we'll never know.




I'll concede that I follow the Serie A more closely than I do the NT. I'll watch the qualifiers if they're on, but I don''t go out of my way to seek out meaningless friendlies as I have absolutely no connection with Italy. This is just my fantasy squad that I would've chosen when the first game came around from the players available in the final roster selection with the exception of the injured, of course.

I don't agree with your absolutist and stringently narrow attitude and perception of what will work and who will not harmoniously exist together out there on the pitch. First of all, this lineup/formation that I propose is very malleable. It's not prefabricated to its drawn up form, bro. It's not a conventional 4-3-3.....DP and Totti are on the shoulders of Toni only because I wouldn't want a formation that's too centralized and narrowed down. They will be able to adjust to whatever the defence throws at them and switch the facilitating and support striker roles in a fluid manner and reposition themselves to their comfort areas whenever the action is in their immediate area.


I can't comprehend why you keep emphatically asserting that such and such player wont jell and adapt to one another as though they're some sort of highly specialized computer parts or something? Both of these players are two of the greatest and have played with some of the game's best, I don't see why they can't adjust to each other's individual qualities for the common goal of helping each other be successful? They're about as flawless offensively as you can get....what more could you want? Unless if you're privy to off the field chemistry issues that they might have? And even then, they should be mature enough to overcome their differences, I'd imagine.



You have to trust me when I tell you the Del Piero+Totti experimentation has been tried, and has never really panned out. They're both essentially the same kind of player even if their games do differ slightly. About the narrowness of the formation if you put them more in the middle: That's hardly a problem when you have guys like Grosso and Zambrotta bombing down the wings. The defensive gaps they leave can be covered relatively easy by De Rossi or some other defensive mid. In a perfect world, if you just put Del Piero and Totti more in the middle, that selection would run over every team on the planet.




hurhur....well, I'm hugely biased towards Materazzi, I must admit. I've been a big proponent of his for a long time, but I don't understand why you're singling him out for the whipping post for that first half performance against the Dutch. The entire team was torched and embarrassed, and the defence continued to be shaky long after he was subbed out, but I'll also concede that yes, he had a poor outing and was unjustly never allowed to redeem himself. This is a player who had a positive impact on your WC run, a man who was without a doubt the best defender in the Serie A last year, so please, don't try to belittle his contributions and quality by erroneously and unfairly putting the entire blame of that first half debacle on his shoulders.


You're right, he wasn't the only bad player on the field, but he was certainly our worst. Didn't pick up his man, left huge gaps in defense to be exploited, slow, etc. The defense continued to still look shaky after we subbed him because Barzagli, the 2nd worst player, was kept on the field. You're right when you say Materazzi was the best defender in the 06/07 season, but he was easily one of the worst in the 07/08 season. Injuries certainly didn't help either. All the criticism Materazzi has gotten is fully deserved.







Here we go again.....your very rigidly over-the-top observations on who's compatible with who. Pirlo is the best playmaker from his position and Totti is one of the best in his role as an advanced complete attacker, but they're so multi-talented and diversified in their abilities, so where does this congruity issue of epic proportions that you're trying to paint come from? You do realize that Pirlo is just a converted (for convenience more than anything else) natural #10 a la Totti and that he used to play in the hole position before being readjusted by Ancelotti? What I'm trying to say is that they've got a lot more similarities than they do differences. Totti has progressed in the offensive side of the game, modifying himself from a playmaker, support striker and now even a lone striker if need be (there's your through man, as well as DP, of course), while Pirlo has maintained his aptitude for playmaking while in the process of developing his defensive and tactical abilities.


I still can't see how you can compare them even if they share some of the same abilities. They both play different positions, even if it is essentially, the same kind of role. Just because Pirlo is converted from Totti's position, doesn't make him the same player he was years ago when he played like a traditional #10. That 20 or so yards that separates Pirlo's position and Totti's make a huge difference in how someone plays a specific role such as the main playmaker for your team.



hmm....you argue that the team can do without Totti and that Pirlo can fill in for him in an even more effective manner, yet you curiously laugh at the thought of someone considering their similarities and differences...??? Also, let's be fair, you started this whole thing.


Anyway, in the formation that I proposed, the offense would be considerably less revolved around Toni, DP and Totti would share the through man role, Pirlo would be the director and distributor of the offense and have a more vertically surging function. Totti would have the freedom to roam and this would be more of a benefit to Pirlo than it would be a detriment because defenses would be less inclined to singularly hone in on him as the primary playmaker, you know? If you've seen how opposing squads treat Pirlo when Seedorf is out, you'd know how advantageous having someone like Totti sharing the pitch with him would be, man......I mean, Kaka and Pirlo function together extremely effectively, right? So why can't Pirlo and Totti? Clearly, Totti is nowhere near as athletic and dynamic as Kaka is, but he's more savvy and equally as gifted offensively.....he can emulate a lot of what Kaka does near the box.



Lastly, I'd like to know what your formation/lineup would've been for the first game against the Dutch. Injured or unselected players can be used for your favored squad

Pirlo can man Totti's role, he did at the 2006 WC. Totti had a fairly limited role in Lippi's squad compared to his role at Roma. The main playmaker for that Italy team was Pirlo. The reason Pirlo can co-exist with Kaka is simple, Kaka and Totti are not the same kind of player. Kaka isn't a playmaker, he just finishes off what Pirlo starts by making the final pass or scoring if need be. And what exactly did I start? I posted an opinion, you responded and we went from there. As far as I can see this is just a debate.

For those line-ups your interested in, this is what I would have played if I were Donadoni. Fortunately for me, hindsight is 20/20.

------------------------------Toni----------------------------------
----------------Del Piero---------------Cassano---------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------Aquilani--------------------------------
-------------------De Rossi-------Pirlo------------------------------
--Grosso-----------Chiellini----------Cannavaro------------Zambrotta

:sleep::sleep::sleep:

:sleep::sleep::sleep:

If you have anything meaningful to say, say it. Otherwise, f*ck off.

If you have anything meaningful to say, say it. Otherwise, f*ck off.
Coooooooooooooool the match is finished... isn't it??? :blah::blah::blah:

Right, we should just stop talking about games right after the final whistle is blown.

:rolleyes:

Well, obviously you have to go on a player's club form to get a good idea of how he'll fair on the international level, but that's not the only thing you can look at. You have to look at how a player has played on the international level previously. Just look at Raul, left out of the Spain squad despite having a good season for Real. Why? Because he's never played as well as he has for Spain when you compare his performances for his club. I mean even Del Piero was a last minute inclusion in Donadoni's squad despite having his best club season since god knows how long. He too, has never been able to reproduce his Juventus magic for the national team. Some players just aren't made for the international game.


Raul is Spain's all-time leading scorer, His club form was actually rather poor up until last season and he was continually picked to the Spanish NT because he delivered. The debate arose because for the first time in 4 years his club form was up to par and he wasnt picked....not the contrary

Oops, my mistake about Raul then.

Hey, man. First of all.....that was a quality reply even if I don't concur with a lot of it. I'm still not persuaded from my major points of contention that this debate has been about, so I guess we'll just have to tolerate each other's differing views.


It was hardly a baseless argument. A number of Azzurri fans share the opinion that Totti puts club>country. This is the guy that said the champion's league quarterfinal against Man Utd was the biggest game of his career when he had just played in the World Cup Final less then a year before. Would I have picked Totti had he not be injured? Sure, why not. Would he have played up to his world class standards? Well, we'll never know.


I don't speak the language, so I wouldn't really know, but I've always been hearing that Totti isn't known for saying the smartest things to the media. Also, his comments could've easily been taken out of context and misconstrued by writers, you know? Unless if he comes out publicly and puts the interests of his club ahead of an important game for Italy(assuming he comes out of his so-called retirement in time for the WC qualifiers), then we'll never really know.




You have to trust me when I tell you the Del Piero+Totti experimentation has been tried, and has never really panned out. They're both essentially the same kind of player even if their games do differ slightly. About the narrowness of the formation if you put them more in the middle: That's hardly a problem when you have guys like Grosso and Zambrotta bombing down the wings. The defensive gaps they leave can be covered relatively easy by De Rossi or some other defensive mid. In a perfect world, if you just put Del Piero and Totti more in the middle, that selection would run over every team on the planet.


Understood. We'll just have to agree to disagree here because I can't think of a legitimate reason why these two greats can't exist on the same pitch in a productive manner. You just have to make Toni a tertiary option and let them handle the manufacturing of goalscoring opportunities between the two of em.



You're right, he wasn't the only bad player on the field, but he was certainly our worst. Didn't pick up his man, left huge gaps in defense to be exploited, slow, etc. The defense continued to still look shaky after we subbed him because Barzagli, the 2nd worst player, was kept on the field. You're right when you say Materazzi was the best defender in the 06/07 season, but he was easily one of the worst in the 07/08 season. Injuries certainly didn't help either. All the criticism Materazzi has gotten is fully deserved.


I concur with you here for the most part. Yes he had a terrible campaign this year regardless of injuries, but we pretty much sucked as a whole. From the front, middle and back, we were agonizingly bad, man. Which just goes to show you how disconcertingly terrible the entire league was this year. But nevertheless, the Italian defence was thrown for a loop from the moment that Canna sustained that injury. He and Materazzi had built a solid partnership. I just can't comprehend how you can make the assessment that Barzagli was any better than Matey, though. You can't single out one turd from the other. The whole team was a pile of ****.




I still can't see how you can compare them even if they share some of the same abilities. They both play different positions, even if it is essentially, the same kind of role. Just because Pirlo is converted from Totti's position, doesn't make him the same player he was years ago when he played like a traditional #10. That 20 or so yards that separates Pirlo's position and Totti's make a huge difference in how someone plays a specific role such as the main playmaker for your team.


I agree to an extent. My contention was never that they don't have distinctions and different responsibilities on the whole because Totti has minimal to no defensive duties, but that their overall influence and obligations, which is to develop plays and facilitate for those dependent upon their creative skills, is essentially the same. It doesn't matter much if Pirlo is playing slightly above his back four and Totti a couple of feet behind the forward (that is, if he isn't playing that role himself), their main objective is still to produce goalscoring opportunities for others first.....two playmakers (Worldclass at that) are always better than one.


Pirlo can man Totti's role, he did at the 2006 WC. Totti had a fairly limited role in Lippi's squad compared to his role at Roma. The main playmaker for that Italy team was Pirlo. The reason Pirlo can co-exist with Kaka is simple, Kaka and Totti are not the same kind of player. Kaka isn't a playmaker, he just finishes off what Pirlo starts by making the final pass or scoring if need be. And what exactly did I start? I posted an opinion, you responded and we went from there. As far as I can see this is just a debate.


Interms of the comparison between the two, you initiated that discussion is all I was saying. But it matters little now as this has been a very civil argument. I don't wanna start another one with Totti/Kaka, but I feel that Totti does an excellent job of imitating what Kaka does in the last third of the field.


I'll say it again. I feel that Totti and Pirlo compliment each other very well, man. There's a reason why they were the assist leaders for the tournament. One builds the offense from the first third onward and the other takes it from the last third on and either creates an opportunity for others or himself, you know? This impedes the opposition destroryers and sh!thmuckers from merely locking in on Pirlo and stifling his chances to create plays in around the forsaken area that is the middle of the pitch.

In the end, when you've got two majestic playmakers like Totti and Pirlo, it's incumbent upon the coach to construct a formation and strategy that adequately emphasizes their attributes.



For those line-ups your interested in, this is what I would have played if I were Donadoni. Fortunately for me, hindsight is 20/20.

------------------------------Toni----------------------------------
----------------Del Piero---------------Cassano---------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------Aquilani--------------------------------
-------------------De Rossi-------Pirlo------------------------------
--Grosso-----------Chiellini----------Cannavaro------------Zambrotta



That's a pretty decent lineup, I think. I'm not the biggest fan of Cassano, as I've already stated. I've just never understood the nauseatingly huge amount of hype that's always followed this turd around. Anyway, you've slotted him in a more proper position that I feel he'd be considerably more productive in than being assigned to a more wingish/forward spot, where he has no business being. I don't understand what Aquilani has done to deserve to be on this squad, let alone see action. Sure you wanna get younger, but isn't Montolivo considerably better than him and more suited for that spot? In my opinion, he's too redundant, stagnate and inconsistent of a player to have been chosen onto this team in the first place.


Also, I'm not a huge fan of Grosso. Sure, he's a great provider from the wing and is a phenomenal setpiece specialist, but his lack of athleticism and inability to track back when he ventures forward and leaves gaping holes along his side is too much to overcome, man. He's a flopping faggot who is either conceding a foul with his lousy lunges due to his lack of lateral movement, or he's being cautioned for simulation....I just can't stand 'em. Chiellini, who is in my opinion one of the best in the World at the moment, is a far superior physical specimen and more suited for that position. I mean, he's not at Grosso's level when it comes to making throughball and cross passes, but this guy is a freak who is capable of running from one end of the pitch to the other for the entirety of a whole match....and he doesn't require any assistance in defending his sideeither, man.

I'll say it again. I feel that Totti and Pirlo compliment each other very well, man. There's a reason why they were the assist leaders for the tournament. One builds the offense from the first third onward and the other takes it from the last third on and either creates an opportunity for others or himself, you know? This impedes the opposition destroryers and sh!thmuckers from merely locking in on Pirlo and stifling his chances to create plays in around the forsaken area that is the middle of the pitch.

In the end, when you've got two majestic playmakers like Totti and Pirlo, it's incumbent upon the coach to construct a formation and strategy that adequately emphasizes their attributes.

i 100% agree with you here. this is why lippi did so well in 06. every player on the team knew the formation and their respective roles in that formation. he found a way how to productively have pirlo and totti in the same side and the results speak for themselves.

that's what great coaches do. they recognize what types of talent they have on their squad and find ways tactically to make it work.

Also, I'm not a huge fan of Grosso. Sure, he's a great provider from the wing and is a phenomenal setpiece specialist, but his lack of athleticism and inability to track back when he ventures forward and leaves gaping holes along his side is too much to overcome, man. He's a flopping faggot who is either conceding a foul with his lousy lunges due to his lack of lateral movement, or he's being cautioned for simulation....I just can't stand 'em. Chiellini, who is in my opinion one of the best in the World at the moment, is a far superior physical specimen and more suited for that position. I mean, he's not at Grosso's level when it comes to making throughball and cross passes, but this guy is a freak who is capable of running from one end of the pitch to the other for the entirety of a whole match....and he doesn't require any assistance in defending his sideeither, man.

definitely agreed that as an attacking option grosso is perfect. defending, he is less than adequate. considering we haven't had a left sided midfielder in seemingly forever, i think grosso would do well there. he has played as a LW for a couple of the clubs he has played for, so the change would be unnoticeable. he will still have the mentality to get forward, and to italy's benefit, take away less defending responsibility. players like grosso and zambrotta are naturally wide midfielders but have the adaptability to play in defence.

chiellini, after this tournament, will most likely be cemented into his CB role as opposed to his natural LB role. having played so very well there, and italy being strapped for talent at CB right now, he is the new heir to cannavaro and nesta.

also, watching chiellini this tournament has really been a display of how he has matured. much smarter into tackles, great positioning, a monster in the air, and showed a great understanding of the game. he was dissecting plays and cutting out possible dangers with ease and all that was done without everyone's favourite safety blanket cannavaro. great promise for this kid, i have to be confident that lippi has taken notice.

Sevillista,

"It's to late to apologize" for this thread title :D