Just some thoughts I had...

This year's European Champions' League and UEFA cup have been terribly dull.
The expanded competitions have had a big part of it, but...I dunno...

Remember last year? the Red Devils destroying anything that moved, solid Bayern always there...Kiev flashing all the way to the semifinal...And of course, Italy was still there (and you can't have a good competition in Europe with no Italians http://www.soccergaming.com/ubb/smile.gif Inter and Juve at their best...

Even the house-stage was exciting, with those titanic clashes like Barca-ManU...


This year's cup is really boring, and there are no REALLY good teams. In fact, there isn't a single team that hasn't lost yet in Europe. (last year, in contrast, the Winners hadn't lost a single game in Europe.)

You got Bayern and Barca stumbling and not up to their usual strength, and then there's Valencia and Real Madrid, who shouldn't even be there IMHO...

I think most of us agree that the best club in Europe, still, is out of the competition, and we all know who that is, don't we? http://www.soccergaming.com/ubb/smile.gif

Who's going to take the Cup this year? Who cares? No one deserves it...
Barca? 3-0 to OVIEDO? (laugh)...
Real Madrid? 4-1 and 4-2? No team should take a cup after conceding 4 times in successive matches..
Valencia? Don't make me laugh..
Bayern? hmm...Maybe them..but still..

--

As for the UEFA final, this game is for the pride of England, Fair Soccer, and all that is Good and Pure in the world, against the Slimey Turks and their ****ing Killing. Anyone neutral here has to be in favor of Arsenal.

I, personally, being a Red Devil fan, usually hate Arsenal. But against the Slimey Turks, all the world should be with the Gunners. Go Arsenal!


[This message has been edited by Sella (edited 04-24-2000).]

In a way I think the fact that there are no dominating teams is a good thing, it means more teams have a chance to make a good showing.

As to your comments about Turkey that was a joke right? Or else you are a very very evil person indeed.

[This message has been edited by PolishPower (edited 04-21-2000).]

haha, and you wonder why people hate Man U - check it out,

"I think most of us agree that the best club in Europe, still, is out of the competition, and we all know who that is, don't we?"

IF THEY ARE THE BEST TEAM IN EUROPE WHY DID THEY LOSE? AT HOME!! WHY DID REDONDO MAKE YOUR DEFENCE LOOK LIKE A BUNCH OF SCHOOLBOYS??

It's this kind of arrogance that makes people hate Manchester United PLC....you think you have the God given RIGHT to win, and when you don't it's not because you were outplayed or that you're not good enough, it's some lame excuse...

Alex Ferguson: "We lost the coin toss and the sun was in our eyes" - after the 3-1 loss to Vasco.

So what, should they end the Champions League now? "Oh well, now United have lost why should we play, they're the best team undoubtedly, so let's just skip the semi-finals and give them the trophy."

Kind of like how you're PROVED you were the 'best team in the world' by losing to Vasco and tying the mighty Mexican champions....

Oh....no...but wait, my anger is misplaced, I am merely Jealous...

Oh, I like your argument that no one deserves the cup
"Barca? 3-0 to OVIEDO"

I have one for you;
Man U? 5-0 to CHELSEA? (laugh) 3-0 to NEWCASTLE? (laugh) 2-0 to FIORENTINA (laugh)

Real Madrid? "Real Madrid? 4-1 and 4-2? No team should take a cup after conceding 4 times in successive matches.."
Ok, let's go over this; Man U vs Southhampton (at Old Trafford) 3-3, the next game Chelsea vs Man U 5-0....hmmm 8 goals in 2 games, let me average that out for you, 4 goals in 2 games...and this is in the EPL - not even in Europe, but oh, sorry, "the best club in Europe, still, is out of the competition"

Also,
"You got Bayern and Barca stumbling and not up to their usual strength, and then there's Valencia and Real Madrid, who shouldn't even be there IMHO..."

So Real shouldn't be there but they BEAT you...hmm so Valencia shouldn't be there? Why? I thought they beat Lazio, or is this some more of 'man u rules and regulations', if you want to talk about teams that shouldn't be there, why don't we say that teams that haven't won their leagues shouldn't be there....oh but wait, then you never would have won last year with that CONVINCING win against Bayern.....can u imagine if that final went the other way round, if Man U dominated and Bayern stole it - fans like you would some how justify that you still deserve the win, and still call yourselves champions....

but oh what do I know, I just hate man u because I'm jealous......

oh woe me...jealousy...

neutral well said...
But the thing is u cannot deny the truth,i mean Man Utd are good,but they're not THAT good.
Maybe they kept winning the Premiership but that's nothing b/c there's no decent and consistent team facing them,it happened in two case and they lost it to Blackburn and Arsenal.
Europe is the real way to testify ur team's strength,maybe English teams did well,but at the end just Arsenal that have a chance of glory,and they may still lose it.
as for Man Utd's team it's not better than Arsenal or Chelsea,not at all,but the problem has been in Arsenal and chelsea's inconsistency,I believe it's time for a change in attitude foir Man Utd b/c time isn't on their side.
Cheers

HHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
well done neutral if that doesnt shutup Sella then i dont know what will!

Whoever asked the question why do people hate Man United then they should take a look at this!!!

And sella im a leeds supporter but even i think youre an idiot with your comments about the 'slimy' turks

I think its important to note that its not just a ManU thing, its an english thing. All different supportors from around england come out with bull**** like that whenever england go out of a major competition.

I think the European championships have been great this year. It's a shame that there are 3 semis with Spanish sides, because instead of seeing a clash of styles and cultures in the final, the chances are we'll see the equivalent of a Spanish cup match in Paris. Well done Spain, though!

IMO a Real vs Barca final would be absoultely wonderful.

I don't think the problem is solely with the Man Utd fans.

I think this can also apply to England the team itself. Know what I mean. They think they have already won Euro 2000.

Maybe I am wrong but I think this comes form English mentality.

Aken99,
I disagree, you ask most England fans in this forum they'll tell u that England are definately NOT favourites to win Euro2000. I think you're mistaking the hugely biased media with the fans - the English media are retarded (and I'm being kind), they love Man U so much it's sickening, and their views on the national team are schizofrenic (speeelllllingggg?) to say the least, one day they're supporting Keegan as boss, next day they want him out.

neutral, what's wrong with you. I don't know why i bother but let's put that straight.

Man Utd aren't invincible- they have some bad moments. But tell me sth: How can they lose from Chelsea 5:0 and then go on to win the championship? Doesn't sound too logical, don't you think? That's because they were extremely unlucky throught some games but at the end of the day Man Utd are the best team in England and ONE OF THE BEST in Europe.

The only reason Real beat Man Utd was the unfortunate own goal of Roy Keane. Man Utd weren't champs last year and didn't deserve to go in the Champions league?? But they still won the Premiership and The Fa Cup!! Of course they deserved it!!

Just shut up cos' you are talking too much.
Now what did Bechkam made the Madrid's defence look like: "A BUNCH OF SCHOOLBOYS?"- I think so. United missed so much chances and Real just hit two on the break - absolutely lucky goals. Everybody saw Man U was the better team.

And "there wasn't any decent competition"? HAHAHAHA That was the dummiest think i've ever heard. Do you really think the competition was better in the two years in which Man U didn't won. That's just stupid. I would say Man Utd wasn't good enough in that two years, but now nobody can stop them. Stop making excuses for god's sake!!

Btw Galatasaray aren't guilty in anything. They are just a football team . Don't blame them - blame their fans! I think they deserved to get where they are.

Garret: read over your post, and then ask who's making excuses.

first of all, kudos to neutral, speaking what was on my mind, part of it anyway. as for garrrett, his post should be too idiotic to mention. however, i'll shed him some light on his blindness. how can you say that keane's own goal was the only reason for man u's loss? why don't you blame the man u defense or something? plus, you say that beckham made the real defense look like kids, well, real probably wouldn't have given up those goals if they weren't in that situation, just defending and ahead by 3 goals. i don't know what was going through mcmanaman's head when he made that tackle, the guy had no chance of creating anything too drastic.

going back to sella, i won't repeat neutral's words. but sella makes it seem like this was an all-English forum or something. that post was biased as hell. the comment "As for the UEFA final, this game is for the pride of England, Fair Soccer, and all that is Good and Pure in the world, against the Slimey Turks and their ****ing Killing. Anyone neutral here has to be in favor of Arsenal. ", i'm still seething from that. he makes it seem like England is the World's only "good, fair, and pure soccer (hahaha)" he makes it seem like this game is all about saving football for the pure, for the "pride of english football". then he makes the Turks seem like they're the scum of the world or something (and English people that are like sella would think the same thing, blind fools). the "slimey Turks", eh? may i remind you that the English fans had as much fault, if not more, as the Turkish fans in the killing because they started everything, they made the provocation and the Turks responded.

it all starts with people like sella, the kind of english people that have this "superior attitude", thinking that they can't go wrong, that they are the good and the pure in the world, that cause trouble wherever they go. you may remember that i said this some time ago. well, here's living proof.

and just curious, what have italian teams done in the past decade (apart from AC milan) that gives them a right to be honored so much? juventus won 1 cl trophy, ok, but only 1. parma won a cup, i'm not sure about inter, but the uefa cup isn't THAT coveted and the teams there aren't top class or anything. what has lazio done? they're just a team of overpaid superstars that still can't do anything.

it's funny, in this decade, before man u won the cl, english clubs really didn't do crap in european cups. then man u wins 1 trophy, on 2 lucky goals, and all the fake and true man u fans in the world come out screaming that they're the best and everything, as kewell said, "as if they had the god given right" or something to be the best team in the world. the best team in the world? you lost the world clubs cup, hello? you only won the cl once, hello? i mean, when ajax or dortmund, or real madrid won the cl, you didn't hear their fans come out screaming about how their the best team in the world or anything. the major reason is because they don't have the english snobbiness. it's like a group of people thinking they have the god given right to be the best team in the world pouncing on a chance they haven't had in years to justify it. then they complain when they're proved wrong, and they still think they're the best.

i mean, if you look at it, the cl was two last minute goals, the league wasn't a surprise, they win it every year, and the fa cup also isn't much of a challenge, a lot of small teams make it far and man u winning it isn't THAT much of a surprise. so tell me, what have they done to deserve the best team in the world?

Well, I expected SOME flaming, but this has really surprised me...

Well, this should take a while..

First of all, let's start with my apologizing to anyone I've offended by mistake...I don't want to offend anyone.

Next - Manchester United are having a horrible season, and they are much less powerful than last year (IMO). BUT, against Real Madrid, as Garret pointed out, even the neutral observer will see that they were much better; I mean, come on, Real only kicked 2 dangerous kicks toward the goal!
Manchester weren't THAT great, but in the end, only Casillas stopped them from advancing.

Next...If the situation was reversed, as someone said, in last year's ECC final, I certainly would have said that MU deserved the cup. AS I SAY NOW, THAT MUNICH DESERVED THE CUP!!!! But hey, that's football, same with this game with Real, when we (MU) should've proceeded, but we didn't. That's football; that's life.

ANd yes, goddamn it, you can't deny it - this year's ECC is LESS INTERESTING than last year's!! 3 clubs from Same country? (Well, I guess that's a matter of taste.). If you recall, Manchester United didn't lose a single game in last year's cup. Bayern lost one (I think), but it was just a freak accident (to Brondby??). And, you remember, they came back incredibly from 3-1 to 3-3 vs Dynamo, for example. Or United's exciting games vs Inter Milan, or that unforgettable semifinal in Torino.

Or Juve's fascinating games vs Olympiakos...

Another point: last year's "Death Group" in the ECC contained Barcelona, Bayern Munich, and Manchester. Every game there was eye-binding. Titanic clashes...drama...the works.

This year's "death group" (well, most major newspapers agree) was with United, Fiorentina, Valencia, and Bordeaux. Every game...YAWN....and that isn't only manchester's fault...Fiorentina-Bordeaux (2nd) was an INCREDIBLE game, but it was when nothing mattered...
I think Manchester's game in Valencia summed it all up:BORING.

And where was the excitement? All 4 clubs that were picked as "hosts" (1st place in 1st groups) went through to quarterfinals. Yippee, surpris-o-rama.

And to all the people who assume that just because I cheer for MU, I've a sleazy ******* that is never objective and bla bla bla...
No, of course I don't think Manchester United should be just given the trophy...that's insane...

Well, I doubt anyone will read this far, but...

Let's see, what else annoyed people?

btw, I think I'm one of the most objective people on this forum...I don't know if this is a compliment, but I try, anyways...

Oh, one more thing: When, for example, I referred to Real's losses in Europe this season, I meant EUROPE ONLY! Christ, I wasn't talking about the league, (where, by the way, United has had some major setbacks - funny to see no one mentioned the 3-1 down to Tottenham [or the 7-1 on Westham? hmm..], but THAT'S BESIDE THE POINT!)

and Polish: 1. Yeah, I guess having no club dominate gives the underdog a chance, but let's see who got to the semis: Bayern, Barca, Real and Valencia. Only Valencia is really an "underdog"...no equivalent of Kiev, for exmaple...
2. As to the Leeds-Galatasaray - I guess each one has his own opinions...but the club's actions have been preposterous as well, in their response to the killings...

Well, again, I'll bet no one has read my entire post...

But again, sorry if I offended you, and have a nice day! http://www.soccergaming.com/ubb/smile.gif

p.s. I just don't get those morons who say, "Oh, yeah, all those ManU/English supporters, they're all the same, they all hate everybody else and think they're the best..."

Well, I don't know everybody else, but I can testify in my own behalf that I'm not...

Oh, and btw...this is in response to the last part of the message before me...

1. I did not "go screaming" that we were the best team in the world...

2. Manchester United won 2 (two) European Champion League's cups. And in the plane crash season, they were favorites to win it.

3.Last year, most people agree, Manchester United were the best team in the world. Many people agree they still are; for example, pal, many official rankings (UEFA, FIFA, ESPN, CNN, etc.) still rank them as first, once in a while.

4. What is this THING people have against Manchesterian Fans? If last year I said they were the best (and, by God, they were) what's wrong with that? A bit of snottiness may be unbecoming, but it's not a federal crime!

5. Oh, yeah, every other team in the world has these nice little fans that never brag. http://www.soccergaming.com/ubb/smile.gif That really made me laugh...
Heck, I've seem on this very forum numerable posts a la' "REAL BEAT THE CRAP OUT OF UNITED", "MANCHESTER HUMILIATED", etc.
So give me a break. We may not be the best, but we're definitely not the worst.

And one last thing, GShakan, punk:
Before this decade, English teams did too "do crap" in Europe: In fact, they are one of the top 3-4 nations in Europe in history! In fact, I think they're one of the top two!

Check your facts next time before you start rambling....

Sella: I take it you apologize for that comments against Turkey, although you didn't say it in those words. And no, don't fool yourself the whole of Europe is not behind Arsenal. I don't know if you're in England, but rest of Europe doesn't get brainwashed by the London tabloids.

As to comparing this year to last year we haven't even played the semi-finals yet! Why don't we wait and see what happens before we judge how good the competition was. Also I think Valencia over Lazio was a huge upset. Barca-Chelsea was great, did you the scene in Nou Camp before the game? Real Madrid-Man U the first game was the best 0-0 draw you will ever see. And no I don't think it is so clear that Man U were the better team, to me it looked like Real controlled the 1st 20 minutes, and then killed them off in the second half, did you really expect anything else than Man U pressing after they were losing 3-0? I mean this is new heights of bad analysis. It sounds like you're saying "We dominated once we were 3 goals down!" do you know how silly that sounds? Also just go back and watch that tape again if you think Real had only two chances! False, absolutely false!

GS Hakan I agreed with most of what you were saying, except when you decided to diss the Italian teams, and Juventus specifically. Well I won't go into long explanation about why Italy was the best in the 90s, just look in your history books.

Now if you were arguing that their domination has come to an end, that maybe it was time for Spain, or maybe even parity in Europe, I might agree with that statement.

Oh yeah and if Champions League final is between 2 Spanish teams, it will be one of the best finals in history of the competition, my prediction.

i said in this decade, sellout, maybe you should learn to read. i specifically said this decade. i know my history well enough, thank you very much. i do try to write carefully before i post, unlike some people.

and polish, italian teams are good, but in terms of winning cups in this decade, really they didn't like dominate or anything. and i'm excluding the early 90s with ac milan, as i mentioned. ok, juventus went to the finals 3 times in a row, but they only won once. parma won a uefa cup, and what else?

and sellout, i didn't mean to say that other teams don't have fans that brag, i don't know if it came across that way. but i was saying that no team's fans brag as much as the manchester united ones. i mean, even when juventus went to the finals 3 times in a row, the bragging wasn't as much as that from the man u fans, when they only won once. everywhere you go, there's a man u fan saying something about being the best in the world, bragging about their team, etc. it gets annoying you know.

and 3 teams from one country, so what? that makes it boring? i don't think so. they're good teams, so i don't care if they're from the same country or not. and at least man u is not in it. http://www.soccergaming.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

I'm not Man U fan ( die hard Liverpool fan instead ). But I do not hate them as much after seeing them play for the last two years. I start to love one of their player Giggs, full of commitment. Once see him still running like no tomorrow with a bleeding nose. And Man U never-say-die approach toward winning gaming is even eye-catching. They have very poor defending during the Real's game. I still think wrong substitution from Alex for Sylvester with Irvin, pooring marking from the former who result in the two earlier 2nd half goal. But their fighting back spirit after 3 goals down make me felt very exciting watching them play.
However asking who really the best Club in Europe or even the world, well, very difficult to judge. Barcelona, Real, Juvente and some of the Brazil's club are also very good teams. In soccer games, luck did play a role, maybe this is the beauty of the Games!!! Everybody can support their favourite team, and let share the beauty of Soccer.

Hum, ok let's say Italy was twice as good as their closest competition in the past decade. Is that fair? Also how are we to talk about the past decade if we don't mention AC Milan?

Off the top of my head so I could be wrong here:
AC Milan 2 Champion Cups
Inter: 3 UEFA cups
Juve: 1 Champion cup, 2 UEFA cups
Sampdoria: 1 UEFA and 1 CWC
Lazio:Cup Winners Cup
Parma:UEFA cup
That about 12 out of possible 30 cups? I dont know who comes in second, but if any other country has more than 6 cups thats a lot! what England has 4 or 5? Spain 3 or 4?

Well I agree with Sella in 1 aspect.That the CL was more exciting last year!Maybe it's because my fav team was there Olympiakos but it seemed to have more passion and fun to it.

Thats just my feelings.

impressive, but the point i was really getting at in my original post was why would teams like lazio and parma get more recognition than teams like valencia or barcelona or real or bayern munich (a team people overlook so much). sellout was talking about how italian teams weren't in the tournament anymore and that made the cl unexciting, he said that because lazio got knocked out. the thing is, lazio gets more respect as a good team than a lot of other teams that have done much more than they have in the past and present. the only thing lazio has going for them is their all-star players (who can't play as a team). that goes to show why they shouldn't be given much respect. you'd expect them to win the european cup and italian cup or something with all those world class players.