ANKARA, Turkey -- Turkey has abolished the death penalty in peacetime as part of a raft of reforms aimed at preparing the country for European Union membership.

Parliament voted through a package of reforms on Saturday that also included easing restrictions on the Kurdish rights and language and tightening laws against people smuggling.

Read the whole thing on http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/08/03/turkey.death.pen/index.html

We were criticizing the Turks for something they had done 90 years ago, so I figured it would be nice to start this thread and applaud their attitude.
Abolishing the death penalty is, above all, a sign of maturity and respect for themselves. Sad it took them so long, but what counts is that they done it, right?
Btw, does anyone here think that the death penalty is still necessary?

Now let me hand out this small warning. Any comments with stupid, immature remarks or personal offences will be deleted. Please don't ruin this thread for us.
THINK before you post. If you feel upset by something you read here, go outside and play some football. Come back after and re-read it. Usually works for me! :)

Yup this is greta stuff. They are desperately to join the EU, and this was one of the steps that had to be taken.

well thats a good thing to hear :)

Originally posted by INFESTA
Btw, does anyone here think that the death penalty is still necessary?

Ok, I'm not going to defend the death penalty because basically, it is outdated. Here is one of my favorite quotes of all time, which is in The Lord of the Rings, The Fellowship of the Ring spoken by Gandalf,

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."

Love that quote. So true.

I can see how there are some crimes that there are not great enough punishments for though. Child rapists are some of the sickest people, and commit the most disgusting of crimes, and emotionally scar people for life. That would probably be the one crime I would turn a blind eye towards the punishment. I don't think it carries a death penalty though, it's something like life in prisonment, or castration and a small jail sencence here in the States.

Originally posted by Nimreitz
Child rapists are some of the sickest people, and commit the most disgusting of crimes, and emotionally scar people for life. That would probably be the one crime I would turn a blind eye towards the punishment. I don't think it carries a death penalty though, it's something like life in prisonment, or castration and a small jail sencence here in the States.

i agree with that.

i was always against death penalty, and then it just shocked me, what i saw on the news a few weeks ago.... that dumb motherf.ucker that kidnapped and then raped that 5 year old girl. Thats actually the first time i thought someone should get a death penalty (and they should cut his balls off before :mambo: )
But... is death penalty these days really that bad? I am not sure what is it called, but with putting chemicals into their blood... do they even suffer?

If there is no Death penalty the prisons should be more strict. I dont know what stuff prisoners get, but the ones who get a life sentence and commit the worst crimes should have like....... nothing :mambo: no coming out of the cell, bread and water for food, no TV etc.

Well, I am drunk like you wouldn't believe, so I will say just one thing: This is brilliant. I applaud the Turkish govt. Well done, I hope the US follows your lead. :)

Drunk as a skunk, apologies for any mistakes I may have made...

This is great news:)

Originally posted by K-Man
But... is death penalty these days really that bad? I am not sure what is it called, but with putting chemicals into their blood... do they even suffer?

If there is no Death penalty the prisons should be more strict. I dont know what stuff prisoners get, but the ones who get a life sentence and commit the worst crimes should have like....... nothing :mambo: no coming out of the cell, bread and water for food, no TV etc.

Is death penalty these days really that bad? It puts an end to somebody's life!
Does it matter if it hurts or not? Prisioners suffer far more from psychological stress than anything physical. Imagine being locked in a room, knowing that you're going to die 5 minutes later - dry mouth, tense muscles, thoughts flying around, seeming like there's no air to breath...

I agree that some crimes makes us want to kill the offender(s). Personally, I think that by applying the death penalty we're only making sure that they'll suffer a lot for a certain period in time. What about living your whole life in captivity? Isn't that worse? After all, freedom is one of our greatest assets.
That's why I think that prisions are a tough (but fair) punishment.

Well, I have only talked superficially about this. There's the question of whether prisions exist just to punish, prevent or also to re-enable inmates, each one with its pros and cons and different ways of acting, there's also the issue of the judicial error (that could never be restored with the death penalty), etc.

Oh, and that was a good effort, hermol. Shows that you're becoming a pro at it.:p

Originally posted by INFESTA


Is death penalty these days really that bad? It puts an end to somebody's life!
Does it matter if it hurts or not? Prisioners suffer far more from psychological stress than anything physical. Imagine being locked in a room, knowing that you're going to die 5 minutes later - dry mouth, tense muscles, thoughts flying around, seeming like there's no air to breath...

but is it bad enough? what about the parents of a 5 year old girl kidnapped and raped by a whacko? what about the little girl? think about the stress she went through. a 5 year old child, kidnapped, raped and then beaten up to death! What was she thinking? How tense were her muscles? Something like that is barbarian... and he deserves the same. No, it wont bring her back to life. But when a person you love is killed, you want someone to pay for that. And you feel better when he dies, than if he spend his life in prison.

What about living your whole life in captivity? Isn't that worse? After all, freedom is one of our greatest assets.


Thats exactly what i thought before. But the prisons must become more strict. Only basic food, no going outside, just being closed in a small, dark cell for the rest of their lives.

personally i think that the death penalty was good to be abolished because firstly i am againts it and secondly i think it was in our way to join the EU which is our main prospective. For me i think two wrongs dont make a right so its good. and many more laws are being passed this week that is good news too. and i hope the us leads our way and stops the death penalty as it was mentioned before. make love not war.

Originally posted by K-Man


but is it bad enough? what about the parents of a 5 year old girl kidnapped and raped by a whacko? what about the little girl? think about the stress she went through. a 5 year old child, kidnapped, raped and then beaten up to death! What was she thinking? How tense were her muscles? Something like that is barbarian... and he deserves the same. No, it wont bring her back to life. But when a person you love is killed, you want someone to pay for that. And you feel better when he dies, than if he spend his life in prison.

Kader, I don't understand how you can say that killing someone (even if he's a murderer) isn't bad enough. Isn't life the most precious thing in the world? There can't be anything worse than it (loosely).
About the little girl, I agree but even then, what good could come out of the death (executed by the state) of her murderer? Do you want us to go back 2000 years to the "eye for an eye" rule? Haven't we evolved in all that time? Killing him won't bring her back.
In fact, I remember reading a report a couple months ago in a portuguese magazine, where most parents of such victims, more than the death of her child's assassin, wanted to simply know why he did it and hear a sincere "I'm sorry" from his mouth. Doesn't make much sense to me either, but fortunately I'm not on their shoes to tell.


Originally posted by K-Man
Thats exactly what i thought before. But the prisons must become more strict. Only basic food, no going outside, just being closed in a small, dark cell for the rest of their lives.

Uh, do you know what's like living in a prison? My desk mate in primary school is now a junkie. He parks cars in the hospital near my faculty, a very popular (illegal) job among other junkies, and has been arrested twice. He is, was, a terrific kid whose fate lies only in the lack of guidance that he had his whole life. His father was arrested for drug traffic when we were in the 3rd year and I heard his mother joined him a couple years later. With no education (when he really needed) whatsoever and with those examples what could we expect? Maybe that's where the main focus should be - education.

We have 2 prisons in the Porto region: one for the light crimes and other for more serious offences. Miguel, that's his name, was sent to the first one. Among other things, during his short stay there, he was butt-raped and beaten severely by the jail cops. He told me that (almost) everybody has AIDS and does drugs, including some policemen. In fact, the drug is smuggled into the cells by the prisional authorities themselves. This is a common procedure, used to prevent riots, and I was told this by other sources.
I don't know if Miguel has AIDS, I don't think he knows it either. Like I said, he is, was, a nice kid.
Did I mention what he told me about the lack of freedom?


Well, my point is that we can't compare ourselves to a bunch of murderers. He killed? We won't kill him, or else we're no better than him. If we don't do this, than we don't have moral ground to ask for anything.

I am personally against the death penalty itself. Sometimes I can't even imagine how cruel it is. Especially, when I saw the movie "Dead Man Walking" that is based on a true story.

Well, at least Turkey abolishes the death penalty. :)

well done turkey

i am against the death penalty. i also think that anyone who murders or commits similar crimes should spend the rest of there lives locked up. in the uk for murder you only get about 25 years which is pathetic as often the sentance is later reduced.

I'm not intending to write a long essay about this, I think you just have to ask yourself this question:

Should anybody, whoever it is, have the right to end people's lives, regardless of what they have done?

I'm a strong believer of the idea that nobody has that right.

Executions are known to have been carried out in the following countries and territories in 2001:

AFGHANISTAN
BANGLADESH
BELARUS
BOTSWANA
CHINA
EGYPT
GUINEA
INDONESIA
IRAN
IRAQ
JAPAN
JORDAN
KAZAKSTAN
KOREA (NORTH)
KUWAIT
MALAYSIA
OMAN
PAKISTAN
PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY
SAUDI ARABIA
SINGAPORE
SOMALIA
SUDAN
TAIWAN
TAJIKISTAN
THAILAND
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
UZBEKISTAN
VIET NAM
YEMEN
ZIMBABWE


Seeing America in the middle of those other countries is best "anti-death penalty in the US" propaganda ever.

Originally posted by INFESTA


Seeing America in the middle of those other countries is best "anti-death penalty in the US" propaganda ever.

Well, given the average North American's "knowledge" of world geography, I think the intent of that propaganda would be wasted, lol :D Example: I was watching a gameshow on TV here last week and this girl was asked what the largest country in the Americas is, based on land mass.....after thinking about it, she replied "Asia?" :rolleyes:

Anyhow, about the death penalty...I dunno if it's because I'm a classic 'generation X'er' but my official stance is "I don't care either way" That seems to be my view on all major world and social issues these days....that's why my dream is to take off and move to the South Pacific, where I can sit on the beach and just not give a sh!t LOL :D

i think death penalty is Ok,not becoz of the victim's families but becoz of the prisioners themselves..i mean,would u rather live for like what? 30/40 years in a dark room,than die and go to hell/heaven or whatever u believe in..being in prison must be even worse than death..at least when u die u know u are going to "a better place"...

just one other point i'd like to add.

criminals who do something really bad (like martin bryant - Port Arthur massacre in Australia) shouldnt deserve to die, i think they should pay the penalty for as long as they live.

he was a bad bad man.

Originally posted by INFESTA
Uh, do you know what's like living in a prison? My desk mate in primary school is now a junkie. He parks cars in the hospital near my faculty, a very popular (illegal) job among other junkies, and has been arrested twice. He is, was, a terrific kid whose fate lies only in the lack of guidance that he had his whole life. His father was arrested for drug traffic when we were in the 3rd year and I heard his mother joined him a couple years later. With no education (when he really needed) whatsoever and with those examples what could we expect? Maybe that's where the main focus should be - education.

no, but i know what the prisons in Poland are like. Satelite TV, "good" food etc. People actually commit crimes because they WANT to go to jail in Poland.

Originally posted by INFESTA


Seeing America in the middle of those other countries is best "anti-death penalty in the US" propaganda ever.


Why? Are you implying those other countries are not pleasant?:p


Well, seeing Turkey is aimin' for that European Union, what is their stance against KURDISH people? They have been harsh to Kurds, and just speaking out for Kurds is punishable, (well I think it was a few years ago). Kurds don't have a nation and most live in Turkey, and I think some Kurdish splinter groups appeared. Does anyone have any info on this?:confused:


Grassy: Wasn't Martyn Bryant mentally disturbed? He had thousands of killing videos at his house, and his mind was like a time bomb. I am not sure if insanity makes you bad/evil. He was schizophrenic, so he probably did not know what was going on. Should he suffer? The other side to this equation is how must the victims families feel. This is a pickle.........

(I'm not trying to start things.... just a statement).

Originally posted by Juventus_theres_next_year
Grassy: Wasn't Martyn Bryant mentally disturbed? He had thousands of killing videos at his house, and his mind was like a time bomb. I am not sure if insanity makes you bad/evil. He was schizophrenic, so he probably did not know what was going on. Should he suffer? The other side to this equation is how must the victims families feel. This is a pickle.........

(I'm not trying to start things.... just a statement).

Is anyone a never-ending packet of tim tams if you go and do what he did?

He's already tried to kill himself, and he costs a bit to keep in prison. He was a friend of a millionare, this very old lady got him to help her out, and she'd buy him a car :mambo:.

He was a mess of a person i beleive :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Juventus_theres_next_year

Grassy: Wasn't Martyn Bryant mentally disturbed? He had thousands of killing videos at his house, and his mind was like a time bomb. I am not sure if insanity makes you bad/evil. He was schizophrenic, so he probably did not know what was going on. Should he suffer? The other side to this equation is how must the victims families feel. This is a pickle.........


Id've sent him off to a mental institution.

BTW he was given life in prison wasnt he?

Originally posted by Parra Power


Id've sent him off to a mental institution.

BTW he was given life in prison wasnt he?

Life Imprisonment for him.

it's better whitout death penalty, if a man stays all his life in prison, well, that's a bigger and harsher punishment than death. Imagine living 50 years in a small room having nightmares about the people you killed or whatever you have done :mambo:

Originally posted by K-Man


no, but i know what the prisons in Poland are like. Satelite TV, "good" food etc. People actually commit crimes because they WANT to go to jail in Poland.

That's...weird and definitely a perversion of what a prision should be. Anyway, I think that a prison never a good place to be, satelite tv or not. Better not kill anyone, dudes.

Originally posted by INFESTA


That's...weird and definitely a perversion of what a prision should be. Anyway, I think that a prison never a good place to be, satelite tv or not

no its not, but with all these goods, the crimminals dont fear it. and even if its not a good place to be, it MUST be more strict. they go there for a reason.

for example if you kill bin ladin: he will become a legend to all of his terrorist communities but if you let him suffer in a jail cell they cant say nothing or do aything about it am i right?

Yes it's a very positive development indeed. Some of these reforms were badly needed to ensure stability in the state & i don't know why they haven't come earlier. The government has been under pressure to carry out these changes from some of the European Union countries in order to enable Turkey's transition into the EU, although this isn't likely to happen until probably 2004-2005 when EU countries will gather to decide on which new members to admit into the federation.

The changes voted on by the Turkish parliament are as follows:

- end of death penalty (except in times of war or near-war)
- allowing Kurdish radio/tv broadcasts and private education in Kurdish
- end of penalties for criticism of state institutions
- easing restrictions on public demonstrations
- easing restrictions for foreign organisations working in the country
- toughening measures against illegal immigration
- greater freedom for minoriy religions

This is very welcome news for many of the Kurds in Turkey who will now be allowed to have 1 radio station & 1 official newspaper in Kurdish, and several private schools will be given the green light to offer formal education in the Kurdish language.
Clearly these are not comprehensive reforms but it's a big step forward and it does meet most of the EU's required criteria.
It should also be noted that even though the death penalty has been in force in Turkey for a long time no executions have been carried out since 1984. The latest case in which someone was sentenced to death is that of Kurdish rebel leader Abdullah Ocalan, who will now, as a result of these recent laws, have his death sentence downgraded into a life imprisonment.

Attaining EU status should bring much needed relief to Turkey's struggling economy which has been hit hard by the ongoing sanctions imposed on Iraq (approximately $50 billion worth of trade lost)
It would attract alot of investment into the country and not just from Europe, it will be a great boost for the local market which is likely to see a substantial rise in exports to Europe & much cheaper imported products at home. And of course it would ease the migration of workforce to and from Europe. The Europeans will also have greater access to the markets of the oil-rich countries of the Persian/Arabian Gulf.
It'd be big news and not just for Turkey itself, neighbouring countries like Iraq, Iran & Syria will find themselves, for the first time, sharing a direct border with an EU country. And this might induce reform particularly in the latter two countries in order to seize on the adavntages possible (economic, social, etc).

Given that stability is maintained in the region, the future of Turkey & the rest of the middle-east is looking very bright.

I think it's a good development. I don't see what purpose the dealth penalty serves other than blatant revenge.

I thought prison was about punishment for the crime the person commited and reforming that person to be a better member of society, who may actually do some good if they could get out of their wrong ways.

One problem I have with the way things are going is that it seems the criminals have more rights and protection than the victims. The most obvious example being the 2 criminals that were attempting to break into someones home. Whilst they were walking across the roof one of them fell through and landed on a kitchen knife belonging to the owner. They then, successfully, sued the owner of the house they were breaking into for this accident. Where's the justice in that? They should've appeared in court and been laughed at by everyone with the judge saying 'Karma's a bitch ain't it'.

The other thing is that it should not be up to politicians to pass scentences or say whether the prisoner should be released or not be they in London or Brussels. That is the job of judges and psychologists who are best able to judge a persons mentality to see whether they are fit for release back into the community.

I also believe that it might be an idea to send petty criminals, especially if they are juveniles, into the armed forces. It seems that what some criminals need is a bit of discipline and respect. Although I wouldn't send everyone into the army because you don't want to see a potential serial killer receive knife or gun training. :)

Originally posted by Sukur54
for example if you kill bin ladin: he will become a legend to all of his terrorist communities but if you let him suffer in a jail cell they cant say nothing or do aything about it am i right?
Most Likely he will shoot himself or get one of his goones to do it for him.



Someone claimed today that Martyn Bryant, a convicted killer of lot of people with a lot of families, is treated better than those Woomera Asylum Seeker dudes. This I think claims (not in reference to any opinion on asylum seekers and Woomera) that well, prisoners are pampered, not made to feel bad. We need correct discouragement, the hard conditions should be part of the rehabilitation, feel bad; just like their victims.

Originally posted by Juventus_theres_next_year
Someone claimed today that Martyn Bryant, a convicted killer of lot of people with a lot of families, is treated better than those Woomera Asylum Seeker dudes.

Who claimed? On what grounds?

I'm not doubting, but I think it'd be positive to know exactly what's happening. If that's true, it's sad, to say the least.

Originally posted by INFESTA


Who claimed? On what grounds?

I'm not doubting, but I think it'd be positive to know exactly what's happening. If that's true, it's sad, to say the least.

he's isolated from every other in-mate, he's suicidal, he's gotta be monitored 24 hours a day.

he's better off than the average in-mate . . . :rolleyes:

and as for woomera asylum seekers, dont dare get me started on them :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Sukur54
for example if you kill bin ladin: he will become a legend to all of his terrorist communities but if you let him suffer in a jail cell they cant say nothing or do aything about it am i right?

but that could lead to more terrorist attacks.

"We will kill all the hostages unless you release Bin Laden"

Before the government decides what to do with Bin Laden...THEY NEED TO CATCH HIM FIRST! so then...

I think the death penalty should be abolished everywhere because It is an easy way out, just practicly ask any inmate who's been in Prison for a couple of year. But I think that they deserve torture and prison time instead It's much harder for them.

I don't see death as the worst thing that could happen to me because I'd rather have 64 Wilt Chamberlian years, than 100 Pope years (sorry to any religous person), but I mean come on the man just sits there and prays.

THIS IS JUST MY OPINION, I'M USED TO BEING ABLE TO SAY THIS CAUSE I LIVE IN A COUNTRY WITH FREEDOM OF SPEECH, RELIGION, PRESS, ETC.

Well obviously you're not religious, or else you would understand that to the Pope, sitting there praying is better than bangin 10,000 chicks. I'm sure to the Pope, he is constantly at one with the creator of the universe. Not a bad tradeoff.

And by the way, if you're going to agree with The Who strategy and hope you die before you get old, just think of when you are 55, and healthy. Trust me, you won't want to die then.

Originally posted by Nimreitz
sitting there playing is better than bangin 10,000 chicks.

i dunno about that, if they're fine chicks then well i'd take the chicks :mrpimp:

personally, i dont beleive in religion, it only starts arguements ;)

oops, I meant praying, not playing. To The Pope praying is better than banging chicks

Originally posted by Nimreitz
oops, I meant praying, not playing. To The Pope praying is better than banging chicks

can u imagine any chick wanting to have sex with the pope? :mambo:

BTW, that Martin Bryant thing is true. Unfortunately, we are collectively a nation of rednecks run by redneck politicians.