Well Johny is on the media bandwagon again this time for trade

For people of other countries you have your problems with your leaders (name one world leader that is still around that is likeable). John Howard well how can I put this is a media dick, he firstly goes on a charity walk with Cricket Legend Alan Border which was expected to last 31 days - instead Johny in full outfitt walks from inner CBD to the Sydney Cricket Ground which isnt far (not enough to break a sweet for this guy turning odd 70 something). I could ramble on and on about this guy how is was in NYC on Sept 11th but wouldnt go to Bali instead was pushed by the media and his own party to go.

But what I came to talk to the Aussies on this board is Free Trafe between USA and Aust. This free trade according to Johny FT will help the poorer countries - even though the agreement is only between the two countries

In Sydney currently we have the World Trade Organisation and Protests... and Americas impeding war on Iraq (how conveniant)

Its all a rich tampastry of crap -- how can we look at our leaders seriously when they all talk ****

yeah same deal is going on this side of the tasman zul-aid, although things are a bit trickier because of the anti-nuke stance we have.

our pm is not as bad as Howard though, she is actually not too bad as a person. trouble is she is one of those people who you know can see through the bullsh!t but chooses to play the political game instead for reasons of expediency. guess that is what makes up politicians. she has been quite critical of both Howard and Bush though, which is something.(H)

ra ra ra ..

politics suck ... thought we all learned that by now :p

politics will always be politics ;)

Originally posted by rhizome17
yeah same deal is going on this side of the tasman zul-aid, although things are a bit trickier because of the anti-nuke stance we have.

our pm is not as bad as Howard though, she is actually not too bad as a person. trouble is she is one of those people who you know can see through the bullsh!t but chooses to play the political game instead for reasons of expediency. guess that is what makes up politicians. she has been quite critical of both Howard and Bush though, which is something.(H)

Well I had a little day dream today about what if I were PM? - there will be no anzus treaty Australia would mature and no longer be tied to one country (Britian be4 WW2 and USA afterwards) but then I came to realise Australia has to stick with USA no matter what. Why do you ask? well next time you see the stock market or next time you hold up a banknote think if America was to crash today we're ****ed - if we were to turn our backs on USA we're ****ed - getting the picture look at all the third world countrys majority of them are anti-American (most if not all of Asia, South America and Africa) and yet there currency is poor... See someone like your PM (whos name eludes me) who might be on the right track to democracy will always be screwed by globalisation and USA (president not the people).

We will always be yes men as people like Rupert Murdoch can stay rich and powerful and continual to control majority of the world because if we did turn our backs on USA and have a more friendly approach to other countries which may not be favouriable (Indonesia example) then our currency will match the likes of the Indonesians

Originally posted by zul-aid
Well I had a little day dream today about what if I were PM? - there will be no anzus treaty Australia would mature and no longer be tied to one country (Britian be4 WW2 and USA afterwards) but then I came to realise Australia has to stick with USA no matter what. Why do you ask? well next time you see the stock market or next time you hold up a banknote think if America was to crash today we're ****ed - if we were to turn our backs on USA we're ****ed - getting the picture look at all the third world countrys majority of them are anti-American (most if not all of Asia, South America and Africa) and yet there currency is poor... See someone like your PM (whos name eludes me) who might be on the right track to democracy will always be screwed by globalisation and USA (president not the people).

We will always be yes men as people like Rupert Murdoch can stay rich and powerful and continual to control majority of the world because if we did turn our backs on USA and have a more friendly approach to other countries which may not be favouriable (Indonesia example) then our currency will match the likes of the Indonesians

I agree, australia is a USA dependent country.

I wouldn't like Australia's chances against international threats if we told america to go :f***: itself.

least sticking with them we're safe to a degree of certainty ;)

Which is why we must strive for some supra-national organisation that is relevant to the present, so that the US can't be the bully-boys like they are with the UN, the WTO, the IMF etc. etc. which are basically set up to operate in the US interest.

i thought the UN was the US ..

silly me ... they act like they're the UN :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Grassy56
i thought the UN was the US ..

silly me ... they act like they're the UN :rolleyes:

Bwaha!!! Love it Paul!

Well, we hear it all again about how the US is our great protector...I'll believe it when our farmers can sell their sheep overseas (and not to a bordello in NZ - sorry rhizome, couldn't resis mate..)

I admire NZ for their anti nuke stance, I really enjoyed studying that ANZUS crisis, I wish we told em to go **** emselves.

can i just say how sick i am of "protests" fark ! a couple of thousand hippies in the capital cities causing traffic to slow !! i needed to get to work and apparently i couldnt get through because of a farking protest ..

i'm sick of all the people who know how the world is going wrong but then create sh it by ie burning a Us flag .. these pricks can fark off ( no direction intended towards anyone in here )

I'm sick of the fact that in Australia everybody bags howard when ever they can but domestically he has been one of our best prime ministers ... seriously take the time to look at our imports , exports, credit history and unemployment and then tell me how much you hate howard

also i am sick of people blaming the Libs for ridiculous things ... ie Terrorism , The Australia wide drought (thats right NSW its in WA aswell and has been for the last 4 years ..we have had sprinkler bands for ages !)

We voted in JH so let him serve his term and if at the end of it your not happy vote for someone elsE !

And if your not old enough to vote and still have an opinion either preach it one someone who doesnt give a **** who they vote for or buy a new game( and get some thing else to do) .. because legal age is 18 and everybody is a political expert at 14,15,16,17 but the fact that people who are this age know more about politics than a 45 years old means tough sh it wait til your 18 everybody else has too ! unlucky !

Originally posted by maddog1983
can i just say how sick i am of "protests" fark ! a couple of thousand hippies in the capital cities causing traffic to slow !! i needed to get to work and apparently i couldnt get through because of a farking protest ..

i'm sick of all the people who know how the world is going wrong but then create sh it by ie burning a Us flag .. these pricks can fark off ( no direction intended towards anyone in here )


And if your not old enough to vote and still have an opinion either preach it one someone who doesnt give a **** who they vote for or buy a new game( and get some thing else to do) .. because legal age is 18 and everybody is a political expert at 14,15,16,17 but the fact that people who are this age know more about politics than a 45 years old means tough sh it wait til your 18 everybody else has too ! unlucky !

I personally think it is great that young people become politicised. I can remember when I first became politically 'aware' at the age of 6, which would be in 1981 when the Springbok rugby team toured here. This tour split NZ right down the middle and exposed the massive cleavage between the (mainly) rural conservatives and the urban liberals. Basically a large segment of NZ were sick and tired of the hypocritical stance of the government who had allowed the tour to go ahead despite the apartheid policy of the South African government. There were massive confontations between protestors and police, some of the games had to be called off because of pitch invasions etc. It was a huge moment in the formation of the NZ identity, along with the anti-nuke stance. And alot of people in this movement have gone on to be influential in a nmber of other political affairs. As a nation we are still coming to grips with the significance and consequences of the Tour of '81.

My point: there were a number of kids involved in this protest who developed a political consciousness that continues with them to this day. As I see it, my step-daughter gets enough sh!t thrown at her from advertising, tv, movies etc. etc. so I have absolutely no problem in provideing some balance for her, and you know what, she appreciates it, because it gives her the critical tools to look at the huge amount of nonsense she is exposed to in mainstream media. So that when she does turn 18 she has the ability to decipher the political nonsense for herself when she goes to the voting booth. And she will also realise that political action does not start and end with the vote.

Personally, i would have loved to have been there to slow down the traffic (H)

Originally posted by maddog1983
can i just say how sick i am of "protests" fark ! a couple of thousand hippies in the capital cities causing traffic to slow !! i needed to get to work and apparently i couldnt get through because of a farking protest ..

i'm sick of all the people who know how the world is going wrong but then create sh it by ie burning a Us flag .. these pricks can fark off ( no direction intended towards anyone in here )

I'm sick of the fact that in Australia everybody bags howard when ever they can but domestically he has been one of our best prime ministers ... seriously take the time to look at our imports , exports, credit history and unemployment and then tell me how much you hate howard

also i am sick of people blaming the Libs for ridiculous things ... ie Terrorism , The Australia wide drought (thats right NSW its in WA aswell and has been for the last 4 years ..we have had sprinkler bands for ages !)

We voted in JH so let him serve his term and if at the end of it your not happy vote for someone elsE !

And if your not old enough to vote and still have an opinion either preach it one someone who doesnt give a **** who they vote for or buy a new game( and get some thing else to do) .. because legal age is 18 and everybody is a political expert at 14,15,16,17 but the fact that people who are this age know more about politics than a 45 years old means tough sh it wait til your 18 everybody else has too ! unlucky !

In a democratic society, we have the right to protest. Creating **** by burning as US flag is just a way of showing our displeasure towards possibly the most hegemonic government the world has ever seen.

Howard may have been good economically, and sure that's important, but he's also been the biggest American arselicker out there, and single handedly put Australia's reputation in the region back 30 years. We're creeping back to the days of White Australia on a wave of xenophobia, and it IS going to hurt us long term. We were finally realising - Gough, to Fraser, to Hawke, to Keating - all those blokes did such good things for our regional policy, then Howard goes and fùcks it all up. 30 years of work gone in 5.

I would never blame the Libs for terrorism or the drought, and anyone who does is a moron.

Again, it's my constitutional right to protest and voice my opinion about the government - be I 2, 20 or 102. I didn't vote him in and sure as shït won't, either.

And politicisation of the youth is the best thing that could happen, as rhizome said. The more young people who become informed at a younger age about the political situation in their state, in their country, in their region and in the world, the better chance they have of making a balanced decision on who to vote for and why they do that.

oh my ! Keating completely screwed our ties with indonesia worse than Howard has Howard is stuck in a hole dug by keating ! !! Keating was possibly the worst prime minster we have had in the last 20 years .. i dont know weather you watch meet the press on Sundays on Ten i think .. anyways they had a special on last week with keating who was their first guest say 5 years ago on their first show ... nothing has changed .. he is a moron ! his policies were flawed and unemployment was at a disturbing high ! (the show should have asked him about the piggery)

secondly .. how would you feel if you saw a group of americans burning a aussie flag ... pretty choked up ! that sort of action is in excusable ...i remember seeing some Afganies burning a USA flag after september 11 and it made me feel physically sick ..now by doing the same here on own soil ... sure we live in a country of freedom but some things are right and wrong and their is a line and burning another countries flag be it USA, UK, Indo, Afgan what ever is wrong ! that is inescusable

thirdly I have no problems with people taking an interest in politics at a young age just make sure not to be to narrow ... once any young person is forcedto work full time and/or study tertiary you'll see some more issues that you may have never noticed before ... also i am still young myself and i dont think i have seen the whole scope of politics but i keep my mind open

EDIT : lots of typos needed to be fixed

oh yeah one last thing


Australia are following america's foreign policy ... lets think about this
we have been part of the Allied forces in WW1 and WW2 , we served in the gulf , vietnam ect ect ... yet now because Australia is more ahead of time we dont want to help our US Brothrs and sisters.... im not saying i want us to go to war .. sh it no quite the opposite .. but we have an army for a reason and if the USA requires help of Australian special forces i think they should be sent in to help . Think of it this way we say sorry USA we are staying out of this one ... then 10 years down the track .. Indonesia (not meaning to vicitimise indos here) attack australia ... we ask for help from America .. and they say ... well we lost our alliance when you refused to help us in the war on terror ...

I want to know hermolt how you would deal with the current situation if you were PM and their was a war againt iraq .... remembering that terrorist attacks happen against us as well ie Bali ... knowing theirs a threat of more attacks we will just sit back and let USA on their own ?

OK.

First things first, I dunno what you were smoking when you said Keating screwed up our Indo relations - he fostered a special relationship with the Suharto government above all other Asian nations. Johnny's dug his own, racist, hole. I'm sorry, but on this point you're just plain wrong.

2nd - I disagree with the burning of flags, but the principle of free speech shoud rise above all others as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of an individual or society as a whole - flag burning does neither. I agree it's a stupid way to vent though, government policies are merely temporary and nations permanent (basically, anyway) and you won't see me with a US flag and some kero any time soon.

I'm definitely not narrow in my views, any opinion I have will be based on me having read as much as possible on the subject before I attempt to put forward a qualified view - that includes left and right wing material.

About us fighting with America - with the exception of WW2 when we felt threatened by the fall of Singapore, all those conflicts have been supporting the US or Britain. Now, I ask you, where were US forces when we went into Borneo and Malaya to quell uprisings there? We felt threatened by Communists, and requested their help, but nope they didn't fight with us in those conflicts. Then, when we were still threatened by communism in Asia, BANG! Guam Doctrine of 1969 stating they would no longer go into Asia to fight. Sorry, Australia. You're on your own. So if one studies history, who's to say they'll help us the next time we get into a conflict? Meanwhile, thousands of Aussies would die if we sent a force into Iraq.

As far as such a war goes, if I were PM, it would depend on the circumstances. If Bush were to go to war unilaterally, it would be a big no. If it were UN sanctioned, then yes. I believe strongly in international law, thus if it were a legal war under international legislature, I would go ahead and attack Iraq.

keating was crap :o

howard is/was better then keating ...

not getting into something long and lengthy .. just my opinion :)

You obviously are strong in your opinions as i am in Mine .. but i am hesitant to continue arguing as it is very easy to be subjective towards things like politics ... its also easy to judge in hindsight but it takes courage to implement certain policies .. not knowing how successfull they'll be

i'll finish by posting two great cartoons of the previous two prime ministers

these are great i found them the other day the site has em for all our previous Pm's

Dude..keep arguing with me.

I love it, I wanna keep going..:(

http://www.iabc.nlc.net.au/iabcnews/0502news4.htm

Keating enjoyed a close relationship with former President Soeharto and the pair established a Ministerial Forum in 1992, which facilitated an exchange of ideas between government departments from both countries.

Also it states in that article what Keating did as Treasurer and PM with regards to the economy. He was f'in great, if we'd not deregulated and had the recession in 1991, we'd have become a total flop in world economics. Rather than Howard digging us out of Keating's hole, Keating laid the foundations for what Howard did. No Keating = Howard has to do it and look like a crap PM. Someone had to have the guts to bite the bullet and Keating did it. Howard's policies don't display guts, they display rampant pandering to the racist, xenophobic lobby in this nation.

Plus I will always have massive respect for someone who left school at 15, never went to Uni and still managed to become the democratically elected leader of a nation.

All these issues are the same........................

I say screw the poli's.................

It ain't gonna change.................


That is that................


:confused: :( :kader: :kader:

Just a few things I hate about your Johnny Howard

MUA DISPUTE: Did everything to force the Union out of all wharfs in Australia calling it industrial relations - THEN LIED ABOUT (proved he lied when the persons he hired to go to Dubai to train were coming back saying they were former amy officers told to go their by the PM to take other peoples jobs and replace them with inexperienced farmers who were paid 60% less than the people orginally there - it was the minimum wage for them and no union)

Just because Im part of a warfie family does not make me pro-Union yes I have seen the bull**** goes on but honest hard workers who deserve job security should never during of the middle of the night at gun point be pushed out by the managing CEO Chris Corrigan - who previously his job was held by one man Joe Murphy (my father)

PETER RIEF - Phone cards, planes trains and cars every scandal that any minister has had he has covered up - HE LIED AGAIN - peter heffernan a good example

KERRY PACKER - He only has to pay $1 (and thats was not even yearly) tax for his fabulous tax package.

GST - Said heed never bring it in..... well here we are GST and all and he said he would never raise it well guess what was in last weeks paper???? - LIED AGAIN TWICE

We have people (I wouldnt call them that probably arseholes would be best) ALAN JONES AND PIERS ACKERMAN racist jerks to the highest order

Piers Ackermans only history of terrorism is being held up in a NYC trafficjam - poor him
Alan Jones - former promoter of one Anthony Mundine - well not allow any Aborigines in his studio nor will he allow any Muslim to sit next to him in a restuarant - these people are part of John Howards campaign ministry

___________________

I have been screwed many times by this jerk

He is not an economy genious that falls to Costello - Howard is a statesman who woos the ignorant - I rest my case

Next time you say this guy is the best prime minister in the country then why did 55% of the country vote against him????

The Myth of Free Trade
Ralph Nader

The ultimate downfall of the corporate globalizers may be that they know no limits.

Not satisfied with imposing pull-down agreements on the trade in goods, Big Business is looking to do the same thing for services through the General Agreement on Trade in Services (GATS). Services includes such economic sectors as finance (banking, insurance, pensions), healthcare, telecommunications, construction, travel and tourism, the professions, education and training, express delivery, energy and environmental services. GATS is part of the World Trade Organization (WTO), and now undergoing renegotiation to become more encompassing.

The Wall Street banks and the other service multinationals first want to ensure that countries do not discriminate against foreign service providers. The United States does not let foreign airlines service domestic routes, for example. Such restrictions to protect domestic firms are prevalent in developing countries, and an impediment to the expansionary dreams of the rich country multinationals.

But the multinationals want much more than non-discrimination. Their real goal is to use the language of non-discrimination (they talk about "market access" and "national treatment" for foreign companies) in order to force deregulation and privatization.

A key priority for the service companies is to place a burden on all countries to show that their regulations are the "least trade restrictive" means to achieve a legitimate purpose.

What does this mean? In case after case, the European Union has suggested that the U.S. federalist system -- with overlapping regulatory powers between the states and federal government -- is an impediment to trade. The argument goes like this: American companies with a bigger presence in the United States can more easily manage to deal with separate regulatory agencies in each state. Foreign companies with a smaller presence cannot negotiate this terrain as easily. Thus, goes the EU argument, regulation should be done at the federal level.

Do we really want to sacrifice important state-level consumer and civil rights protections -- for example, interest rate caps, limits on corporate discriminatory practices like redlining, restrictions on predatory lending -- because they are inconvenient for European companies? Of course, the real point is not that they are inconvenient for Europeans, but for business. The U.S. companies hope to use GATS to eliminate U.S. regulations -- just like the European corporations want to get rid of rules in the EU.

There are relatively weak GATS rules in place now, but ongoing negotiations between nations under corporate influence to tighten them and apply them to more and more services raise serious concerns.

What might a strengthened GATS mean for the United States? It's too early to say with certainty, but based on a careful analysis of existing proposals, Professor Patricia Arnold of the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee has raised a set of disturbing questions:

Will GATS weaken efforts to regulate financial markets in the aftermath of the financial and accounting scandals? Already foreign companies are complaining about the reach of the modest Sarbanes-Oxley accounting reform bill, which would require foreign, as well as U.S. CEOs, if they sell stock on the New York Stock Exchange, to attest personally to the validity of their companies' financial statements.
If Wall Street gets its way and achieves a partial privatization of Social Security, will GATS make it impossible ever to bring the program back fully into the public sector? GATS requires countries to pay compensatory damage if they grant new public rights over the supply of a service, she notes, making privatization a one-way street.
Would GATS limit efforts to regulate the health insurance sector? The insurance industry argues that service agreements should prohibit restrictions on the types of insurance products allowed on the market. Might this mean a ban on legal requirements that health insurance policies must cover certain medical conditions?
Some will argue these are Chicken Little sky-is-falling concerns. But if the NAFTA-WTO experience shows anything, it is that corporate lawyers will grab onto any crevice in trade rules to hoist corporate interests above the public interest.

Consider the "Chapter 11" investment protections in NAFTA. In a case closely paralleling what might occur in other countries with a GATS agreement, UPS is suing the Canadian postal service for offering express delivery service. The postal service is subsidized for mail delivery, and that subsidy unfairly advantages Canada Post over UPS in the express delivery market, UPS claims.

If Canada Post wants to compete in the market, they should set up drop-off boxes separate from mail boxes, employ delivery and sorting staff separate from the people who handle the mail, and handle delivery packages at separate facilities from the mail, UPS argues. Since Canada Post had the temerity not to pursue this economic irrationality, UPS is asking for hundreds of millions of dollars in compensation.

This is actually happening, and other companies are filing lawsuits in each others' countries against safety regulations, court verdicts and other expressions of domestic sovereignty.

Enough cases like this -- and a more dominant GATS will make sure there are many more -- may eventually produce a backlash that will bring down the whole WTO-NAFTA edifice. But the damage inflicted in the meantime is too severe. Better instead to prevent new agreements that diminish our living standards and roll back existing ones. For more information on how to stop the GATS, contact Global Trade Watch at www.tradewatch.org.

Originally posted by zul-aid
Just a few things I hate about your Johnny Howard

MUA DISPUTE: Did everything to force the Union out of all wharfs in Australia calling it industrial relations - THEN LIED ABOUT (proved he lied when the persons he hired to go to Dubai to train were coming back saying they were former amy officers told to go their by the PM to take other peoples jobs and replace them with inexperienced farmers who were paid 60% less than the people orginally there - it was the minimum wage for them and no union)

Just because Im part of a warfie family does not make me pro-Union yes I have seen the bull**** goes on but honest hard workers who deserve job security should never during of the middle of the night at gun point be pushed out by the managing CEO Chris Corrigan - who previously his job was held by one man Joe Murphy (my father)

PETER RIEF - Phone cards, planes trains and cars every scandal that any minister has had he has covered up - HE LIED AGAIN - peter heffernan a good example

KERRY PACKER - He only has to pay $1 (and thats was not even yearly) tax for his fabulous tax package.

GST - Said heed never bring it in..... well here we are GST and all and he said he would never raise it well guess what was in last weeks paper???? - LIED AGAIN TWICE

We have people (I wouldnt call them that probably arseholes would be best) ALAN JONES AND PIERS ACKERMAN racist jerks to the highest order

Piers Ackermans only history of terrorism is being held up in a NYC trafficjam - poor him
Alan Jones - former promoter of one Anthony Mundine - well not allow any Aborigines in his studio nor will he allow any Muslim to sit next to him in a restuarant - these people are part of John Howards campaign ministry

___________________

I have been screwed many times by this jerk

He is not an economy genious that falls to Costello - Howard is a statesman who woos the ignorant - I rest my case

Next time you say this guy is the best prime minister in the country then why did 55% of the country vote against him????


I agree with a lot of that except......... the sad fact is, the others can do no better, and do not say otherwise......... remember last time Labour was in........:kader:

He has done well, nothing spectacular, I am eager to see Costello take the reins personally, I dont mind Johnny.

Originally posted by Juventus_theres_next_year
I agree with a lot of that except......... the sad fact is, the others can do no better, and do not say otherwise......... remember last time Labour was in........:kader:

He has done well, nothing spectacular, I am eager to see Costello take the reins personally, I dont mind Johnny.

Peter cant lead his own people in his party wont let him his ego and arrogance have left him sometimes isolated in the party thats why when Johny said he was going to retire this year well he changed his mind after his own party told him to keep going till 2007 as a poll went out before the previous election and asked who is a better leader Howard, Beazley, Abott or Costello... Costello ran dead last

Labor cant do better is because its divided into three The Right, The Left and the extremel left Labor
The Right want Labor to be like the Liberals (which is stupid imo).
The Left who want Crean to be leader and rid of the Union membership in the party
While the extreme Left want someone like Greg Coombe (ACTU leader) Geoff Carr (NSW Premier) or Peter Beattie (QLD Leader) and even Steve Brackes (VIC Leader) the leader of the federal party and for the Union to have more a say in party affairs then a decrease.

I stuck between the Left and the extreme left.

I remember reading an article by Margo Kingston about the election of 2001 and how Labour will be divided up and Abbott will in a coup take the riegns of the Liberals which looks like coming to reality.........

i dont want to flog a dead horse but

Keating's spending was a huge problem .. actually .. sometimes it was his spending sometimes it was his promises of spending and then failure to deliver ... pre-election he made many speeches about millions for this thousnads for that and then the organisations and schemes were very very slowly put together if they were at all ... Howard got us out of extreme debt .. also he introduced the GST which has helped the country previously flawed tax system ... even though he said he never would (yet he changed with the times)

Also i am satisfied with Howard as our PM right at this moment , Costello is potentially the only other possible candidate for PM because crean will never be PM .. Rumour has it that Beazely (who actually grew up around the corner from my house and was/is (maybe) our local member ... nah thats phil pendal ... anyways i am not a big arguer and dont like to get into slanging matches unless its about liverpool :D but as i said to view anything in hindsight its easy to pick out mistakes and problems .. you have to govern for the time your in power and the future not for the past .. .. and thats what howards doing IN My Op

Howard's racist policy is doing nothing for our future.

Originally posted by hermolt
Howard's racist policy is doing nothing for our future.

care to elaborate ... :confused:

no clue what that is :$

Originally posted by Grassy56
care to elaborate ... :confused:

no clue what that is :$

He is using One Nations' Foriegn Policy

When One Nation Party was on the way out, Johnny thought it would be fun to use ONs ideals in QLD to increase votes

As we all know every state is under labor leadership

GST is NOT!!!!!!! the way of the future as PROVEN in many other countries like NZ, Canada and any other countries - it supports and helps the rich

Johny makes calculated mistakes - he is PM. Tampa is a good case

We have been here what 200 - 250 years never before have Indonesia or any extremist attacked us - we were once friendly to our region - then Costello put out leaders calling the PNG PM fat, New Caledonians are drunks, etc etc.. so many got pissed - Dr Marhatia of Malaysia was always targeted and ignored - these are our neighbours and this is how we treated him

Maddog you say he has brought the country foward then how-come the price of the dollar is the lowest it has ever been even though thats the same for US dollar

Johny went to the States before Sept 11th and stayed still Sept 21st... Bali he went on Oct 16th 4 days after the blast and stayed for 2 hours. America is more a risk then that place especially after Sept 11th.

Australia has never got into international slagging matches he left that to the big boys - Howard the media hog that he is (example I could post 1000000000 of examples) thought hey lets get in on the action - would Keating, Hawke, Frazier, Whitlam done that - well Whitlam went against the USA and cited China as a country even under communitist rule, 5 weeks later Richard Nixon then President of USA did the same. Since Howard has been on the international scene we have been attacked and we will be attacked again yet this has never happened before in our brief history here especially over the last 50 years when we should have.

Liberals get into power by loopoll - he is the most hated Prime Minister ever opinion polls show people hate him as much as Costello but as all everyone said no one is out there to take him out.

We get nothing out of Howard and nothing out of our trade relationship with the states

[/B][/QUOTE]
Originally posted by zul-aid

GST is NOT!!!!!!! the way of the future as PROVEN in many other countries like NZ, Canada and any other countries - it supports and helps the rich

Lets see some figures to back that up .. also it has been very succesful so far .. whats to say the trend wont contine
Originally posted by zul-aid

Johny makes calculated mistakes - he is PM. Tampa is a good case

The tampa is a good case of a calculated mistake ? When the government act on advice from senior cabinet members its a calculated mistake ? pish Howard was told the situation and acted on what he was told ...
Originally posted by zul-aid

We have been here what 200 - 250 years never before have Indonesia or any extremist attacked us - we were once friendly to our region - then Costello put out leaders calling the PNG PM fat, New Caledonians are drunks, etc etc.. so many got pissed - Dr Marhatia of Malaysia was always targeted and ignored - these are our neighbours and this is how we treated him
how can you blame the current state of the world on our government what you are saying in "no extremist attacked us" in this context is the same as saying its howards foreign policy that made bali happen ... if thats your attitude is a pretty simple one i offer you the same challenge as hermolt to show me a way which howard could have changed his foreign policy after 9/11 to satisfy the public and then not have a hand in americas pocket.. also ww2 Dominoe theory ... south east asias wave of communism .. so i gues that rules out that the 250 of our neighbors not posing any potential threatOriginally posted by zul-aid

Maddog you say he has brought the country foward then how-come the price of the dollar is the lowest it has ever been even though thats the same for US dollar
Well the dollar is an interesting one because i can remember when i was about 7 or 8 when one Australian dollar was worth about 85 C US ... now lets see say roughly 10 years 35 cents its going down on avg 3.5c a year .. its not just our dollar thats crap ... the Us dollar is down against the pound as well .. i blame this solely on the introduction of the Euro :D

Originally posted by zul-aid

Johny went to the States before Sept 11th and stayed still Sept 21st... Bali he went on Oct 16th 4 days after the blast and stayed for 2 hours. America is more a risk then that place especially after Sept 11th.

In both cases the reasoning is the danger to the Pm would you go to bali a day after a terrorist attack knowing the threat of another one .. things werentvery clear in the first day or two afterwards ... he probably should have gone a day or so after wards .. Downer went .. and for me thats good enough .. Sept 11 he stayed because Flights were grounded for about a week
Originally posted by zul-aid

Liberals get into power by loopoll - he is the most hated Prime Minister ever opinion polls show people hate him as much as Costello but as all everyone said no one is out there to take him out.
a 55% loopoll hes the most hated PM thats funny because he is also one of the longest serving PMs go figure ?
just one last thing .. before i make this my last post in this thread as i think i am getting RSI in my fingers ... In all of these situations your beloved labour party, would they have done things much differently ? i think you'll find not .. its very easy to criticise and show flaws but its alot harder to stay loyal through tough times.. . anyways i dont think i am going to post again here ... as i hve said a few times .. you can argue just about anything

Originally posted by maddog1983
how can you blame the current state of the world on our government what you are saying in "no extremist attacked us" in this context is the same as saying its howards foreign policy that made bali happen ... if thats your attitude is a pretty simple one i offer you the same challenge as hermolt to show me a way which howard could have changed his foreign policy after 9/11 to satisfy the public and then not have a hand in americas pocket.. also ww2 Dominoe theory ... south east asias wave of communism .. so i gues that rules out that the 250 of our neighbors not posing any potential threat [/B][/QUOTE]

I'll tell you what he could have done. He could have not pandered so much to the US. When have they EVER helped us?? Come on..name one situation when they've given us a hand.

I don't get what your saying about the Domino Theory and South East Asian communism..what's your point there?

Regarding the GST, it's certainly slugging the poor more than the rich - that's a well known fact. And the fact that he said we wouldn't have the GST in the early 90s shows how hypocritical he is.

We are Bush's lackey - no more, perpetrating racist policy and spending 1.5 billion dollars on "border protection" - then we wonder why Mahatir etc despise us.

GST by its very nature (a flat tax) affects the poor more than the rich because everyone is taxed at the same rate on purchases. Consequently as a proportion of income the poor are taxed at a higher percentage than the rich.

The Green Party of NZ had a good idea at the last election, removing GST on food because that is a necessity. Unfortunately they were hikacked by their own potential coalition partners and are kind-of in the opposition, kind of in the government. So an extremely intelligent idea is wasted yet again.

As for the US, I their hegemonic grip on this part of the world is definitely on the wane, and has been at least since Vietnam. Whilst canoodling up to Bush may bring some short term gains, I think that over time a more 'European' approach will yield dividends.

how can you blame the current state of the world on our government what you are saying in "no extremist attacked us" in this context is the same as saying its howards foreign policy that made bali happen ... if thats your attitude is a pretty simple one i offer you the same challenge as hermolt to show me a way which howard could have changed his foreign policy after 9/11 to satisfy the public and then not have a hand in americas pocket.. also ww2 Dominoe theory ... south east asias wave of communism .. so i gues that rules out that the 250 of our neighbors not posing any potential threat

I'll tell you what he could have done. He could have not pandered so much to the US. When have they EVER helped us??( Come on..name one situation when they've given us a hand. how bout when darwin was bombed ? WW2 and Vietnam we have fought together for the same cause and we fought for our countries respectively ...

So we just fark off a hundred years of history and tradition ? we are and have always been a part of the allied forces ...

I don't get what your saying about the Domino Theory and South East Asian communism..what's your point there?

That was a threat to our border .. we were worried by the spread of communism being so close to Australia ... hence regarding zulaid's statement about us never having our borders threatened



Regarding the GST, it's certainly slugging the poor more than the rich - that's a well known fact. And the fact that he said we wouldn't have the GST in the early 90s shows how hypocritical he is.

it takes a big man to admit he is wrong.... also If you earn more than 100 000 a year then you get taxed 45 c of every dollar ! thats certainly not as much as some one whos on 25 000 whos gets taxed 20-30c a dollar depending on circumstances... the government are way to lenient on the unemployed have the dole ... many countries overseas has no such thing as the dole .. in the Usa you are poor you need to find a job .. theirs benefits for 6 weeks then it becomes non existent you know how many dole bludgers we have in this country !

One thing i hate .. be it libs , labs or demos i hate how much polis get paid ! that makes me angry

Mark Darwin down - but they only fought cos they were there. Ask yourself - had they been in Washington and it happened, would they have come? Again, they didn't go to Borneo. Nor Malaya. And the left us in the cold with the Guam Doctrine. Free Trade? Not bloody likely. Howard kisses arse for 2 years and Bush still lets the agricultural lobby ride roughshod over liberalism, which America preaches to the rest of the world. May I remind you, we might be about to sign an agreement, but as Bush went to Paraguay championing free trade, theUS government continued to provide protection for their farmers, and slug imports with a massive tariff. So. In the last 55 years, what have they done? As I said, they've fùcked us off, I strongly suggest we do the same. Vietnam we fought FOR THEM. Calling it 200 years of tradition is grossly overestimating as well. We signed ANZUS in 1951. In that time, they've done nothing for us, us everything for them. And we want to help them in the misguided notion that they MAY help us should we need it. Well super. The US looks after itself and no one else, I suggest it's time Australia tries looking after itself a bit more.

Originally posted by maddog1983

I don't get what your saying about the Domino Theory and South East Asian communism..what's your point there?

That was a threat to our border .. we were worried by the spread of communism being so close to Australia ... hence regarding zulaid's statement about us never having our borders threatened


domino theory was a farce.

Ho Chi Minh used Communism ONLY to make Vietnam independent, nothing else. Its been proven historically. Cause after the North won the Vietnam War, no other countries SOUTH of Vietnam fell to Communism.

And China was never satisfied with the Soviet Union, they're were complete and utter two different forms of Communism. And therefor never got on well with each other.

So yeah, domino theory imo was thought up to spread fear in the western world, of communism.

Originally posted by Grassy56
domino theory was a farce.

Ho Chi Minh used Communism ONLY to make Vietnam independent, nothing else. Its been proven historically. Cause after the North won the Vietnam War, no other countries SOUTH of Vietnam fell to Communism.

And China was never satisfied with the Soviet Union, they're were complete and utter two different forms of Communism. And therefor never got on well with each other.

So yeah, domino theory imo was thought up to spread fear in the western world, of communism.

Gee Grassy showing signs of intelligence all the way from Tasmania who'd have thought.

Maddog many many times i have discussed the RIGHTS value on leadership - if John Howard was a dictator you'd support him no matter what as the RIGHT would say "love the one your with"

Labor is struggling thats obvious just go to the radio or paper to hear Alan Jones or Peirs Ackermann talk about Labor and bashing them but you never hear what the Liberals have done wrong.

In your previous post you said you complained about how much MPs get paid - well the worse case happened at the start of the year when on of Johnys men a Senator (man I have forgotten) said he will stay on for the whole term (one of his conditions for re-election into the senate) then Johny doesn't like one or two of his policy changes (I think he was that communications senator) and decided to give him 2 Million dollars and now his off the Republic of Ireland to spend the rest of his life as an ambassador

Another one again a Liberal and again a senator she was a long serving MP she was incharge of the CES and the Dole, she helped Johny and Costello write up new legislation which in turn made her eligable for three Dole payments on top of her War Widows Pension and her retirement package from the Government - I believed she retired in Tasmania on a cool $5 millions dollars tax free

_______________

Johny screws us all and makes us all eat it
When you have Murdoch and Packer on your political side and they get something in return its hard to get into power.

Originally posted by zul-aid
Gee Grassy showing signs of intelligence all the way from Tasmania who'd have thought.



vietnam war intrests me a wee bit .. Tasmania has nothing to do with it :o

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Chomsky/NeoliberalismPOP_Chom.html

How Countries Develop

... In the eighteenth century, the differences between the first and third worlds were far less sharp than they are today. Two obvious questions arise

1. Which countries developed, and which not?
2. Can we identify some operative factors?

The answer to the first question is fairly clear. Outside of Western Europe, two major regions developed the United States and Japan-that is, the two regions that escaped European colonization. Japan's colonies are another case; though Japan was a brutal colonial power, it did not rob its colonies but developed them, at about the same rate as Japan itself.
What about Eastern Europe? In the fifteenth century, Europe began to divide, the west developing and the east becoming its service area, the original third world. The divisions deepened into early in this century, when Russia extricated itself from the system. Despite Stalin's awesome atrocities and the terrible destruction of the wars, the Soviet system did undergo significant industrialization. It is the "second world," not part of the third world-or was, until 1989.

We know from the internal record that into the 1960s, Western leaders feared that Russia's economic growth would inspire "radical nationalism" elsewhere, and that others too might be stricken by the disease that infected Russia in 1917, when it became unwilling "to complement the industrial economies of the West," as a prestigious study group described the problem of Communism in 1955. The Western invasion of 1918 was therefore a defensive action to protect "the welfare of the world capitalist system," threatened by social changes within the service areas. And so it is described in respected scholarship.
The cold war logic recalls the case of Grenada or Guatemala, though the scale was so different that the conflict took on a life of its own. It is not surprising that with the victory of the more powerful antagonist, traditional patterns are being restored. It should also come as no surprise that the Pentagon budget remains at cold war levels and is now increasing, while Washington's international policies have barely changed, more facts that help us gain some insight into the realities of global order.

... the question of which countries developed, at least one conclusion seems reasonably clear development has been contingent on freedom from "experiments" based on the "bad ideas" that were very good ideas for the designers and their collaborators. That is no guarantee of success, but it does seem to have been a prerequisite for it.

Let's turn to the second question How did Europe and those who escaped its control succeed in developing? Part of the answer again seems clear by radically violating approved free market doctrine. That conclusion holds from England to the East Asian growth area today, surely including the United States, the leader in protectionism from its origins.

Standard economic history recognizes that state intervention has played a central role in economic growth. But its impact is underestimated because of too narrow a focus. To mention one major omission, the industrial revolution relied on cheap cotton, mainly from the United States. It was kept cheap and available not by market forces, but by elimination of the indigenous population and slavery. There were of course other cotton producers. Prominent among them was India. Its resources flowed to England, while its own advanced textile industry was destroyed by British protectionism and force. Another case is Egypt, which took steps toward development at the same time as the United States but was blocked by British force, on the quite explicit grounds that Britain would not tolerate independent development in that region. New England, in contrast, was able to follow the path of the mother country, barring cheaper British textiles by very high tariffs as Britain had done to India. Without such measures, half of the emerging textile industry of New England would have been destroyed, economic historians estimate, with large-scale effects on industrial growth generally.

A contemporary analog is the energy on which advanced industrial economies rely. The "golden age" of postwar development relied on cheap and abundant oil, kept that way largely by threat or use of force. So matters continue. A large part of the Pentagon budget is devoted to keeping Middle East oil prices within a range that the United States and its energy companies consider appropriate. ... one technical study of the topic ... concludes that Pentagon expenditures amount to a subsidy of 30 percent of the market price of oil, demonstrating that "the current view that fossil fuels are inexpensive is a complete fiction," the author concludes. Estimates of alleged efficiencies of trade, and conclusions about economic health and growth, are of limited validity if we ignore many such hidden costs...

Originally posted by Grassy56
vietnam war intrests me a wee bit .. Tasmania has nothing to do with it :o

Its referred to by many on the mainland that Tassy has no political opinion and when the GREENS!!!! got a good showing in your last state election everyone before that election was asking is there any signs of intelligent life in Tassy???

Originally posted by zul-aid
Its referred to by many on the mainland that Tassy has no political opinion and when the GREENS!!!! got a good showing in your last state election everyone before that election was asking is there any signs of intelligent life in Tassy???

greens did jack really.

liberal party sucks down here
labor party sucks even more down here
greens couldn't run a 20 m race let alone tasmania :)
and if there was any other political bumkin down here they'd suck as well ;)

tasmanian politics are the worst ...