Okay Italy82, Goonerboy etc...
You all have your favorite countries and talk about how Brasil sucks but just for 1 sec answer these facts.

Does your nation have 4 World Cups won in the last 50 years??
The greatest player ever.

And please list as many quality players in each position as Brasil has. By the way these players are likely the ones that are young enough for WC 2002 - which Brasil will win.
No other Nation has as much depth period!

GK Dida, Carlos Germano
LB Roberto Carlos, Fellippe, Ze Roberto, Shivlino, Serghino
CB Odvan, Cesar, Zago, Junior Biano
RB Evanilson, Cafu, Ze Carlos

LM Denilson, Rivaldo, Dhjalamja
CM Emerson, Alex, Vampeta, Marco Assucono,
RM Juninhio, Beto, Amoroso

Strikers
Ronaldo, Ronaldhino, Elber, Warley, Christian, Fabio Junior, Jardel

Didnt think you could name as many with Brasil's depth.

Now do you actually think your best possible squad could beat any combination of these guys?

"Now do you actually think your best possible squad could beat any combination of these guys?"

Simple they can't, Brazil is the best there is.

New Zealand leaves Brazil for dead

Jonah Lomu
Christian Cullen
Jeff Wilson
Tana Umaga
Zinzan Brooke
Sean Fitzpatrick
Colin Meads
John Kirwan
Wislon Whineray
Waka Nathan
Murray Mexted
Fergie McCormack
Sid Going
Graham Mourie
Olo Brown

man I could go on for days.......

Um, I posted this as a serious topic. For those people that are constantly bickering that Brasil sucks with no evidence or reason for saying so.

New Zeland?? All I know about them is that Zico did some splendid dribbling and got an amazing bike kick in 82.

Have they even been to a world cup since???
I never heard of any of those chumps.
What league are they in?

I think he means footy.

Funny Junihio, I can't recall many people saying Brazil suck, but I recall many people including yourself saying how much better brazil and S America is than their european counterparts.

Brasil is great best players, talent top to bottom, no qustion the best potential team in the world.
But then you make a statement like your best squad could not hope to beat this squad etc. but you forgot your best squad got beat in 98: at the WC, lost to USA, lost to Norway, Argentina etc.

The way you say it you make it seem that Brasil never lost a game, won every world cup, Copa America, and Olympics, and every game its 8-0.

As a matter of fact I think theres a whole lot of teams that could give Brasil a hell of a good fight. I wont name them, starting with Denmark....

Juhninho,
Never heard of Johna Lomu, what about matthew Ridge.
Ya ken there no footballers surley, ya erse.

I doubt i`d even consider Brazil to be in the top five nations for producing stars. There are many nations more productive. The Dutch for me though are the best individual talents on average as a nation.

They are brilliant,
Bergkamp, Overmars, Davids, The De Boer bros, Seedorf, Kluivert, Stam, Zenden, Rieziger, Hasselbaink, Cocu, Van Bronkhorst ahhh theres too many i think i`ve made my point though.

Juninhio,
The reason you havent heard of any of those chumps is probably the same reason you cant work out that someone is taking the piss out of you.......

gooner boy that last statement about Brasil not being in top 5 for star production? is just about the dumbest statement I ever saw.

Holland, England, France, Argentina, Italy, Scotland, Norway, Sweden, Ireland, Germany........Pick any 5!!!!!!!

Juhniniho,
By the way, not once did i say i thought scots were the biggest producer of modern day talent and with regards to The best footballer ever well none of us can claim that......Unless your part Dutch!

Us scots have a player that the Brazillians are yet to match, Wee Jinky Jimmy Johnstone.

Hey idiot ,isnt it strange though with those player they never win any awards ,cause theres always someone to eliminate Brazil(Thats how crappy they are)

He should start to vote to see what is more stupid:
1 - This post.
2 - GOONERBHOY Statement, and his private soccer world, Oh my God! Ireland and Norway make more great players then Brazil...
3 - Italy82, Brazil never won awards.
4 - ZZUB, when everybody knows that Vietnam make better players then New Zealand! http://www.soccergaming.com/ubb/smile.gif

Lord you just back off right there buddy!!!!
Its been a bad enough year with the All Blacks losing and now I have you really going for the jugular with that comment
Man it may be true but at least we get to see in the new millenium before Vietnam.
}=)

Lord,
Why didn`t you question Italy, Sweden and Germany as well they were dumb picks. I only put in those cause i was struggling for numbers. Although Norway has to be us there with Riseth, the Flo Cousins, Rekdal, Solskjaer, Johnson and many more, i admit ireland was a joke, i just like Robbie Keane regardless of what he done to the gunners last night.

PS: I do watch many different leagues but the style of play just doesn`t appeal to me.

Italy82 I dont get you!

Are you just stupid or is just your english thats bad.

btw do you remember the Brazilian Squad of 82, that played offensive and lost to that squad to only knew how to defend.

[This message has been edited by edu (edited 12-26-1999).]

gooner it would be a good arguement if we were talking Holland vs Brasil, or Argentina -Brasil I agree, it is very close. And it would be very very close, but in no case could you say any of those countries have clearly better stars or more talent than Brasil. I mean how many times did you hear in the WC 98 analysis that Brasil had the most talent, are you saying all those experts know bollocks?...

Sweden? No, not even close to Brasil.

GONNERBHOY - No you said that England made the best players in this century, but it only wons one WC because the best players were Scots...

PS - You have to explain better, when he says that only Dutch could claim they have the best footballers, he is not talking abou Cruyff, but about Bergkamp.
Yes, Bergkamp is better then Pele, Maradona and Puskas...
GOONERBHOY words...

You work very well. Now I know that you don´t know nothing about soccer!

You wanna who can beat Brazil?Easy everyone.

ZZUB has the best list

all those players could
literally
steamroller the brazilians

LOMU LOMU LOMU
the man mountain

Holland offcours!

Jerrel Hasselbaink
Dennis Bergkamp
Jaap Stam
Marc Overmars
Ruud van Nistelrooy
Michael Mols
Patrick Kluivert
R. de Boer
F. de Boer
Philip Cocu
Boudewijn Zenden (almost whole Barcelona)
Clarence Seedorf
Edgar Davids
Giovanni van Bronckhorst
Winston Bogarde
Edwin van der Sar
Michael Reiziger
Richard Knopper
Aron Winter
Pierre van Hooijdonk
Bert Konterman
Kees van Wonderen

And I could go on hours!!!!!!!


[This message has been edited by Bart (edited 12-27-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Bart (edited 12-27-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Bart (edited 12-27-1999).]

I'll name two. Argentina (boy, do I like that team?!) and Holland. Brazil's good, no doubt...but there are teams that can give them a good fight. While in form, they can rout Argentina 4-2 and on their off day, they'll lose just as badly to formidable opposition such as France.

Polish...thanks for being one of the more sensible guys on the forum.

Okay your all missing the point of this post. If you think there is a team that has better players.
LIST THEM!

how about 5 for every position except 2 plus keeper.

Italy82 list 5 left wingers that are Italian. How about 5 center midfielders. All the Italians have is Vieri Nesta and Buffon.

I have to admit Italy's midfield is not that great ,but their defense are one of the best
starting with their goalie Buffon and Toldo
Defensemens like Maldini(despite is age he can still take the ball away from any player)
Nesta(the next Maldini),Ferrara(some of you might disagree ,but if you see him play ,this guy is an excellent defensemen ,rarely makes any mistakes)Cannavaro(another excellent defensemen ,he was their best defensemen when they won the UEFA last year)
Their Offense:
Christian Vieri(5 goals in wc'98,says it all),Del Piero(Great playmaker,excellent passer)Inzaghi(best scorer in serie A,in 1997 with Atalanta)
You can see clearly they have good players ,but its all up to Zoff to make right decision.If they use the right strategies ,they can beat easily anyone.

Juninhio - You have to end this "We are the better in the world and no one could take near our feets."
This is just our marketing and Futebol Mídia words.
That´s the same statement that made us, without a WC for 24 years, even with great teams.

Brazil is the best team ,MY OPINION, but there are 5 team that could beat Brazil and it will be normal: Holland, Argentina, Italy, Germany and England; because they have great players and are not better TODAY, and 70, and 58... but not always! Remember 82...

Im sorry ... did Lord say that Bergkamp is better than Pele and Maradona? WHAT ARE U SMOKIN??? I love Bergkamp, that guy is a magician, but Pele and Maradona?? Geez ... those two won how many World Cups together?? 5?

And Juninhio, you gotta stop this Brazil is the best, they are the best, but leave it alone.

No!!!!!!!!!!?!?!??!?!

It was GOONERBHOY.
I just want to explain that when GOONERBHOY say that only Dutch could claim they have the best footballer, he is not talking about Cruyff, but Bergkamp.

No he was just clarifying that i ment Bergkamp instead of Cryuff or Van Basten or someone when i said the greatest of all time was a dutchman.

and i still and always will stand by that until someone better comes along.(Jimmy Johnstone a close 2nd)

I don`t give a fack what the rest of you think that`s MY opinion!

Saying Bergkamp is best player of century is like saying Wimbledon is the best team of century...

TO ZZUB & FAT BHOY TIM:
WHAT THE F#@* U GUYS NO ABOUT?
AREN'T ALL THOSE PLAYERS RUGBY PLAYERS?
SURE THEY COULD STEAM ROLL THE SAMBA KINGS...
NICE JOKE THOUGH IT REALLY MADE ME CRACK UP.

AND BY THE WAY BRAZIL DO HAVE A LOT OF TALENT
BUT THERE ARE A FEW MORE TEAMS THAT CAN BEAT THEM AND EVEN HAVE DEAPTH IN THE SQUADS. FOR GOD SAKE IT'S A NATIONAL TEAM...
E.G. ENGLAND (EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE GOING **** AT THE MOMENT)
GERMANY (LIKE ENGLAND)
FRANCE (PROVED THAT THE BRAZILIANS ARE BEATABLE IN FRONT OF 3 BILLION PEOLPE WORLD WIDE)
AND I'LL GET BORED IF I KEEP GOING BUT I'LL LEAVE U WITH THIS THOUGH: BRAZIL 3 DENMARK 2.
WC 98 QRT-FINAL MIGHTY CLOSE TO ELIMINATION.

The Rugby players were obvously a joke although i wouldn`t put anything past Jonah.
Germany better than Brazil,

Scotland 1 - 0 Germany

We must be better than everyone then and we can`t even get past the first round of the WC.

Just goes to show you results only prove the winner on the day, nothing more.

hi y'all,

I hate to whip a dead horse but could not resist making my first post on such an empassioned topic.

My short answer, "J", is that while no one would rightly argue with the depth of Brazil (your main point eh?) - though Argentina and France come pretty close. I make this judgement based on the exports you see around (mostly European) the top leagues.

One interesting observation on your Brazilian depth chart though - your weak up front...
Ronaldo is done and Ronaldinho has yet to begin. The rest of your strikers are unproven in the national squad (I don't care how many goals Jardel puts away in Portugal.)

Still, you could always put Rivaldo and Amoroso up front....

Sorry for the long post footy fans. (Could I be any more bold, saying Brazil is weak on strikers in my first footy post?)

Cheers.

Israel Rocks!

http://www.soccergaming.com/ubb/smile.gif

How 'bout them Berkovic and Revivo!

Duke, criticism well take. First your forgetting Elber, who could have been the piece Bayern needed to beat Man U in the final.

Elber best striker in Germany
Amoroso Most goals in Italy last season
Ronaldo Most goals in Italy including Italian cup season before that.
Ronaldinho - player blessed by Pele as the best he has seen in 10 years.
Jardel - not only in the portugese league, check out his Champions league stats

But your right Rivaldo and Denilson could both play upfront. I know Denilson has been s****** on Betis, but he is on Betis!

Plus a dozen or so strikers soon to be coming to Europe.

Juninhio,

Did you leave Giovanni Elber off of your Brazilian depth chart? Thanks for bringing him up! He is a brilliant striker, who proves Brazilians also have the "power" as well as finesse to succeed in a tough, physical European league.

But just a tiny rebuttle, or a few notes on your response:

Italy is a real cauldron's test for strikers, but isn't Amoroso struggling for minutes at Parma right now?

As for Pele's comments on little Ronaldo, be careful - I remember him saying even stronger things after Euro '96 about Steve McManaman!!!

Also, we really will have to cross our fingers and wait and see if Inter's Ronaldo ever comes back to form again.

By the way, though others find it annoying, I love your passionate loyalty for your South Americans! If we all felt the same way, we wouldn't be punching these keys in the middle of the night....

Cheers.

I belive most of you are forgettig of the Brazilians that play outside of Europe.in Brazilian league theres Alex who was wearing wrong sized shoes against Man U, he could have easily scored a hat trick, theres also o'animal Edmundo who scored many goals in Firenza and is still scoring goals in Brazil. lets not forget about Romario hes still playing and damn good and then theres brazilians in the MLS like welton and in Mexico you have Tiba,Zinha,Pinheiro,Claudinho.theres many more in leagues around the world so many that they know that to be called to play for the selecao national team is so damn hard that they end up playing for other countries like Lopez in japan and oliviera in Belgium and others i cant remember the only other country were players have done this is Argentina lets see Pizzi in Spain and half the squad of the world champion italia 34 thats right kids time to check the history footy books...so Argentina is 2nd in producing players because of population then Holland same reason and Yougoslavia the war and the seperation they had all these takes away players and Last but not least Nigeria if they had a better league and no ebola virus or so much poberty we would be talking about the Brazil of the Africas.... AND ALL OF YOU CAN TAKE THIS TO THE BANK....

[This message has been edited by Edoardo (edited 12-29-1999).]

HEY JUNINHIO, ITALY 1949 WAS THE BEST TEAM OF ALL TIME...THEY WOULD HAVE KILLED ANY TEAM IN THEIR WAY IF ONLY THE TORINO TEAMS PLANE DIDNT CRASH A YEAR BEFORE THE WORLD CUP...TORINO HAD 9 OF THE STARTING 11 THAT YEAR AND WERE THE BEST CLUB TEAM OF THAT ERA

What Christo said was right ,Cause of the plane crash Italy didnt go to Wc in the fifties .If that never happened ,the outcome would have been different .Back then Torino won 4 scudetti in a row .The only team who has done that better was Juventus from 1931 to 1935 .

Okay, that is officially the stupidist thing I heard. Better than Brasil of the fifties?? They would have had to go to South America.

They would have been annihalted with pure offence football

Juninhio I'll tell you, Juninho and Denilson are both total crap, and Romario that old fagg, couldn't cut it in Europe anymore, so he wen't to the weak Brazilian league.

Brazil had just as much trouble beating the Aussie in the U-17 Final then the US, and I mean Australia, they're hopeless at soccer.

Name me some good players, if you mention Ronaldo,Romario,Denilson etc as good players your'e crazy. Betis paid so much for a bag of sh*t like Denilson.

Right on Ajax supporter.

We could all sit here rattling off names and disagreeing for ever. The point is, however, that it doesn't matter if you've got the most quality players, football has always been a TEAM game. A team of top quality players who can't work together is like a solid gold jigsaw where none of the pieces fit: pretty but useless. Sure quality helps but only within a solid team. That's why France dominated Brazil in the '98 final; they had the quality and the balance (and the same happened to England in their Euro 200 qualifying campaign, they certainly had the edge in quality but teams like Hungary, Sweden and Poland could still at least match them). In '98 Brazil had a lot of players who were just too similar. There was no Brazilian player who could make the killer pass in the same way LeBoeuf, Petit or Zidane could.
Of course nowadays it seems like Luxembourgo is building a real team with a good balance of players (including, miraculously, some half decent centre backs) so I expect this new Brazil side to perform better in 2002 if he stays. On the basis of international tournaments so far, however, (which is the only way you can judge these things) I think Brazil would be lucky to be about the 4th best team (behind France, Holland and Argentina).

You saw all the games of Sao Paulo with Denilson, so you can tell he is total crap, didn't you Ajax?

Yes you are right, Brazil does not have good players! They all suck, now could we move on?

Paul Louis - I don't agree. There is no need for a great explanation. France suck in all WC98.
A tied with Paraguay and Italy, a "luck" goal against Croatia (because it was Thuram goal not France). They were worst then Brazil, Holland and Argentina. But they play at home and they play the final with all theirs hearts. So they won. They don't need to be super to win.
Brazil didn't play a great WC too, as Holland and Argentina, but they were better teams.

Now I think the last 3 WC were the worst. Too much marketing, but few great football.
WC 90 the worst, if a 70% Maradona and 71% Matthes.
WC 94 few good teams and a +- Brazil.
WC 98 a great Holland and Brazil teams that played much more before the WC.

Why cant you admit France deserve to win in 98.Saying that they were at home is a cheap excuse.

As if they would pay as high for anyone not in south america. All that matters is that Brasil have the most world cups the best player ever the official title of greatest nation ever by fifa and are all still a young team which should be more mature for 2002. Unlike Germany and others where they play ancient players and like Baggio who is still challenging for a spot in Euro 2000 Brasil has so much talent that every player no matter how great has to stay on his heals.

What are you talking about ,first of all Baggio is not playing for Italy no more and I doubt that he will play in Euro 2000 .Other than Germany ,every european team have young players that will become stars .

Look at Italy ,they have Buffon(24 years old),G.Zambrotta(21 years old),Vieri(only 25 years old),N.Ventola,A.Pirlo(both are about 21 or 22).Have you seen U-21 italian team ?They are almost unbeattable ,they've beat teams like France,Germany,Austria etc...

Juninhio,

Bottom line, Brazil WERE a good team, but the better players have retired, like Dunga, Cesar Sampaio, Leonardo, Romario, etc. The only descent new Brazilian is Ronaldhino.

-Simon

well well well

Juninho, you say that Brazil is the best in all positions.

You are not roght or wrong

the problem that Brazil has is their defence and goalkeeping. They, and some African teams are good because of their athletism. They can run all day without rest.
but there some weaknesses in their game like tactics, or teamworks. They can dribble, shoot and run pretty good, but a lot of things need some work. And plus, all players come from different championships, and that is why teamwork needs a lot of work. Also, there are a lot of roughness n the pitch; the players are hot tempered.
But to look on European side,
Europeans have the best defence, and they have pretty much good discipline, but, you all may say how can I say this, their attack won't even competite with Brazil's. Besides, Soccer is Brazil's first and last sport, with nothing else. in England there is cricket, rugby, etc. that what makes Brazzil the best.

Alex, Fellipe, yes Denilson who is on crap Betis, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Amoroso, Rivaldo, Roberto Carlos, Emerson, Dida all are going to be under 30 in time for 2002.

Brasil have the best midfielders best wing backs and best attackers. All they need are 2 good center backs and they will be unstopable at every position

I know many would disagree but England does have many quality players, even if they cant seem to play well together at the moment!

England

GK, Seaman, Martyn, Flowers, James, Simonsen, Wright,

LB, Gordan, Hinchcliffe, Le Saux, Winterburn

CB, Adams, Keown, Pallister, Southgate, Ferdinand, Campbel, Ehgiough, Perry,

RB, Neville, Neville, Dixon,

LM, Guppy, Wise

CM, Ince, Gascoigne, Redknapp, Batty, Scholes, Butt, Merson, Lampard,

RM, McManaman, Beckham, Izzet, Anderton, Parlour,

ST, Owen, Shearer, Fowler, Cole, Dublin, Phillips, Campbel, Ferdinand, Armstrong, Smith,

Sorry about any spelling mistakes or mis nationalities.

Man......I've been trying to stay out of this topic, but now I can hold it back no longer......
AJAX SUPPORTER IS A ***#ING MORON!!!!

Listen you little Ajax bastard, just because Romario spit in your mommas boy European face and went back to the real home of football gives you no right to say the Brazilian league is weak.
Look at the facts you *******.....how many international titles do Dutch clubs have? Ajax won one a few years ago, but that is the only one I can remember this Century.
How many have Brazilian clubs won? Too many to list!
And when we werent the champions, we were 90% of the time in second place.
So shut your stupid little mouth....at least if you came from a country with better clubs like Italy or England, I wouldnt be as mad if you said the things you did, BUT HOLLAND?!?!?! COME ON!!!!

And as far as what the topic is really about, I have to say this:

You Europeans seem to want to blame S. America's(Specifically Brasil's) SUPER success in football on stamina, by saying crap like: They win because they can run all day....bla bla bla...

We are not some second rate African country!
Our football is made up of skill and technique....that only a few countries in Europe come even close to matching.

The on-going argument that is as old as the sport itself of whose better, S. America or Europe is virtually impossible to answer,as there is NO real answer to that question.( No right ones atleast)
But I will say this....S.America has MORE national team titles that ANY ONE in the world. S.American clubs have MORE international club titles that ANY CLUB in the world. And when I say international club titles, I dont count the European championships, because the rest of the world clubs dont participate, that would be like counting the Libertadores or Mercosul titles. It wouldnt be right either because the rest of the world doesnt participate.

Just think those facts over. They are not ment to point the better finger at any direction over the Atlantic, they are just TRUE facts.......

And many of you have been talking about Brazil's defeat to France in WC 98 WAY TOO MUCH.

Ok, France deserved to win. Although they were crap throughout the whole competition, and didnt deserve to be in the final in the first place, they did deserve to win the Cup because they played better than Brazil.

BUT...Brazil was and still is the much better team. On that day, many things were going on behind the scenes with the Brasilan squad that contributed to their loss.
If Brazil had played under a good coach with a healty squad, and no pressure from NIKE, things would have turned out much diffretnly.

Galo it was Juninho who started this whole argument so dont think that we Europeans just decieded to say...

"Oh look Brazil and the reast ofSouth America aren't as good, lets tell them they are worse."

We are simply defending ourselfs. If you wanna shout abuse at anyone for this I would direct it at Juninho...

Anyhow I agree with you... This Argument cant be won. You can't judge two continents against each other... Thats thousands of players.

Each continent is better for different reasons, you can't judge Europe v South america.

South America has a better history, but Europe hold all the current titles... well 2 of them. THEY ARE EVEN!!!

Brazil didnt deserve to go in the final in 98.Denmark deserved to win against Brazil if it werent for their mistakes .What about Holland,they played 10 times better than Brazil did .So dont say these bull**** about France didnt deserve to go in the final ,cause I taught it would have been France vs Holland and im sure the score would have been more tight .