Let's take it from another perspective:

US Soccer(not football)is in the upswing after the disaster of last years and the 70's when they had their league filled
with over the top European Stars.
remember the US CAN be there in about 35/40 years as serious Soccernation.
They have the best sports facilities of the world and it shows.
hardly any Hooliganism when going to a soccer match in the US, why? mentality!
Americans are very sport-mindend compared to us Europeans and Asians.
BUT the problem always was that the US thinks that it can market Soccer just like any other Sport in the US, like NBA Basketball,NFL Football, NHL Icehockey and MJL Baseball.

1 BIG difference!:

These are all TV sports!
look at the way it's played:
all intermissions in between and therefore exellent for investestors and
sponsors.
Soccer is not like that, It is a ongoing game 45 minutes with only 15 min break in between.

and the most important thing is!

Soccer = a game of the people!the mass
every little child, from China to Mongolia, to South America, to Afrika, and so on is familar with that round thing you kick at.
Only in the US they are familliar with that
semi-banana thing, wich you trow at each other.
therefore, it wil take such a time to get adjusted into the US society and it'smentality and hopefuly culture.

Americans have hardly any hooliganism because they treat sports differently than Europeans. To Americans a team is only a team.

For example:
Chicago Fire and DC United compared to Glasgow Rangers and Glasgow Celtic.

To people in Chicago and Washington DC their teams mean nothing more than their cities attempt at a team. To the people of Glasgow, Rangers and Celtic are much more than just teams. Rangers have always been the team Protestants support while Catholics traditionally support Celtic. At games between the two teams songs are sung by each side about various things in Northern Ireland, ie IRA and Orange Order stuff. The games represent the conflict in NI in a different aspect but many times end up getting violent because of the nature of the supporters.

You are right when you say the mentality of US sports fans is different, but you are wrong when you say it is because the US fans are more sports-minded.

Most of the other stuff you said I agree with.

One aspect that I think the MLS will have trouble coping with is size. In any European league you typically have 4 levels, Premier, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd divisions. In the case of the English league there are 20 teams in the Premier League, 24 teams in the 1st division, 24 teams in the 2nd division, and 24 teams in the third division. That is a total of 92 professional teams in England alone.

Almost every city, regardless of size has at least one football team. In the US, only major cities get sports teams. For that to happen in the MLS there would have to be hundreds of teams.

It`ll never be as good as the Scottish Prem,
Hey DirkDiggler - GLASGOW CELTIC #1, Rangers Suck Arse.

Americans are much less passionate about professional teams than they are about college (university) sports. That is where the fanaticism (sp?) rivals that of football in Europe and South America (minus racial abuse [sort of] and urine bombs of course).

Who's in first place again? Oh yes, it's the one and only Glasgow Rangers.

Dirk - there is already a sort of second division in USA, A League of course, Rochester Rhinos even won the US CUp this year beating three MLS teams on the way. Only thing different of course there is no promotion or relegation.

As to why MLS has trouble marketing in USA, I think its because Americans expect to see the very best talent and teams when they watch on tv or go to games. For example I read that Champions League games on ESPN which are here in the afternoon drew higher ratings than MLS games during the weekends.

Also think about the 4 major sport leagues in USA: NHL has the best hockey players from all over the world, NBA is so good its scary compared to the rest of the world, same can be said for baseball and NFL. Americans expect to see the best, but when they watch MLS they see mediocre talent and play, and that is not good as far as getting people to come to games.

[This message has been edited by PolishPower (edited 11-23-1999).]

Soccer is getting somewhere in the US.

It is by far the most popular youth sport. This is a very good thing. It means that we are literally growing a fan base for MLS. We also have talent development / finding programs in place for children as young as 8 to 10 in the form of Club teams (separate, and usually in addition to recreational teams) and the Olympic Development Program.

As far as the US being a television oriented nation, I agree with you. Up until the formation of the MLS four years ago, there were only occasional national team games shown on TV. It is hard to develop a huge fan base when at most you could watch on game a month (usually tape-delayed, usuall late at night). I know that in '90 for the first time that most of the World Cup games were shown live. But before then, I would wager that a lot of people wouldn't have known that the US had a national team.

Anyway, sorry for the side-track, soccer is claiming a place in the hearts of Americans. As far as TV goes, soccer games are getting more viewers on average than NHL games, and I think its ratings will only grow next season with the new rule changes.

We have a long way to go still, but we've come a long way since four years ago (regardless of the attendance figures). If looking at the U-17 World Championship going on right now is any indication, our future is a very bright one. Please just give us time to get going.

I mean like a league in Europe that has multiple divisions where promotion and relegation exist.

Are the teams in the American A league professional?

I think all sports would be much better with promotion and relegation. It gives teams a reason to perform because if they don't, they get relegated.

There is not just the A-League, but 3rd division teams in the USL.
For more info on the US league structure see:
http://www.unitedsoccerleagues.com/about/index.html
Yes. The A-League is professional.

Relegation would be a tough sell in the USA. Fans are used to knowing what teams are in a league. The financial aspect of it would be difficult as well. Every team that would be relegated from MLS would fold. As exciting as it would be to see a team like the Rochester Rhinos win promotion, it won't happen. Their only hope is future expansion.

Even the teams in England are often struggling for money in the lower divisions. It's a big problem there. Look at Crystal Palace... or Sheffield United...
(The same is true of the lower divisions of the Scottish leagues. There was a good article on this problem in WORLD SOCCER magazine about a year and a half ago.)
The difference is that in the USA, teams don't have lifelong fans yet. If a club were to be relegated... bye bye fans.

As for the Rangers/Celtic rivalry... you have chosen about the fiercest rivalry in sports to compare MLS rivalries to. Since the teams are only 4 years old at most, there is no fair comparison...except perhaps to J-League teams... where I would guess some of the same problems exist.

As for Americans considering teams to be just teams... I'd say that is partially true but not absolutely. Definitely true for soccer...
(But try to tell that to a Dallas Cowboy fan in the heart of Texas...
Or to a Kentucky Wildcat (NCAA) fan in Lexington...)

It seems that the places where soccer teams have fans who completely wrap their entire existance in a team are usually places where there is a lot of political or economic strife and depression. This sort of fanaticism (such as Celtic/Rangers, or River Plate/Boca Juniors... or even Newcastle's Toon Army) is something that is not found much in any US sports and has more to do with history and class hierarchy than sport.

I agree with DirkDiggler assesment on American sports. Here in the US, we have so many different teams in so many different sports, and each year the teams are overhauled because the owners can't afford the salaries of the players anymore. You're right. A team is just a team. Actually, a team is just a business. The players (for the most part) just play for money and as a result, ticket prices are so high it's difficult to attend many games. Right now, the NFL, NHL, NBA, and college basketball are all in full swing, so the fans in a particular city don't live and die by any one particular team. Of course this is not true in all cases, especially in the smaller cities, but even still, there is far less passion in a Chicago v DC United game than Rangers v Celtic. I suppose one difference is, the Chicago fans will get over the lose to DC, I suspect Rangers and Celtic fans don't get over loses to one another.

I believe it is a certinty that the US national team will improve, you must start your players young which would be hard in a nation with so many other sports but the population is so great that if a european manager came over they could improve the team but it will take some time.

the MLS has no chance though it too big a nation to convert the supporters that a league needs.the only benifit that the mls will have is to find individuals for your national team.

The Us will never catch Europe your a century behind.

jsbach what the hell are you talking about.strife and depresion,you think there is no strife and depresion in L.a or Chicago...To completely wap their entire excistance in a team,this is bull i belive you dont understand the meaning of true football passion,you cant comprehend it and you probably never will.so stick with "soccer"because football is not a game its a way of life...

Football like religion is,at least outside of america:The opiate of the masses

Loved by most.In America it's a niche sport played by school kids.The closest you could describe football to in relation to american sport would be,College sports.Particularly basketball.
It's a religion of sorts.
There's is no rivalries like in Europe.
Celtic and Rangers being the main example.
Do american teams have songs ?
We sure as hell do

Hail Hail The Celts are here
What the hell do we care
What the hell do we care
Hail Hail The Celts are here
What the hell do we care now

For its a Grand Old Team to play for
For its a Grand Old team to see
And if you know the history
Its enough to make your heart go
Nine-in-a-row

We don't care what the animals say
What the hell do we care
For its all we know
Is that there going to be a show
And the Glasgow Celtic will be there

I like the song man (fat Bhoy Tim) it has a certain artistic genius that came up with it, a genius that knew good music and a good team yeah!

Brendan,
You haven`t heard that before, wow, where have you been.
CELTIC #1

Here's some more

The Fields of Athenry

By lonely prison walls I heard a young girl calling
Michael they have taking you away
For you stole Trevaillians corn
So your young might see the morn
It's so lonely round the Fields of Athenry

Chorus:
Lo lie the Fields of Athenry
Where once we watched the small free birds fly
Our love was on the wing
We had dreams and songs to sing
It's so lonely round the Fields of Athenry

By lonely prison walls I heard a young man calling
Nothing matters Mary when you're free
Against the famine and the crown
I rebelled they cut me down
Now you must raise our child with dignity

Chorus

By lonely harbour walls she watched the last hour falling
As the prison ship sailed out against the sky
But she'll live and hope and pray
For her love in Botany Bay
It's so lonely round the Fields of Athenry

Chorus

---------

You'll Never Walk Alone

When you walk through the storm
Hold your head up high
And don't be afraid of the dark
At the end of a storm there's a golden sky
And the sweet silver song of a lark.

Walk on through the wind
Walk on through the rain
Though your dreams be tossed and blown

Walk on walk on with hope in your heart
And you'll never walk alone
You'll never walk alone...

Walk on walk on with hope in your heart
And you'll never walk alone
You'll never walk alone...


--------

The Celtic Song

Hail Hail The Celts are here
What the hell do we care
What the hell do we care
Hail Hail The Celts are here
What the hell do we care now

For its a Grand Old Team to play for
For its a Grand Old team to see
And if you know the history
Its enough to make your heart go
Nine-in-a-row

We don't care what the animals say
What the hell do we care
For its all we know
Is that there going to be a show
And the Glasgow Celtic will be there

---------

Over and Over

Chorus:
Over and Over we will follow you
Over and Over we will see you through
We are Celtic supporters faithful through and through
and over and over we will follow you.

If you go to Germany you will see us there
France or Spain its all the same
We'll go any where
We'll be there to cheer you
as you travel round
you can take us anywhere we won't let you down.

Chorus

If you go to Lisbon we'll go once again
In Zaire you'll find us there calling out your name
when you need supporting you will always know
we'll be right there with you every where you go.

Chorus

Hmm I seem to have entered the "You are now in Parkhead forum"

Edoardo, you might not agree, but there's no need to insult.

I'll explain further.
Strife... as in the strife between Catholics and Protestants in Glasgow that has led to the fierce rivalry there. There is nothing like that in the USA.

Or how about the economic class stratification that has over many many years led to the division between Boca and River Plate. English imperialism led to all of that originally, and then it has evolved from there along economic lines.

Most football clubs where these passions exist (and I purposely say clubs) originated from true sport clubs. In the USA most franchises developed as business ventures.
That's the difference.
Since the clubs are formed from the people, the direct links to the strife are there and they are reflected in the clubs.
There is racial strife in the USA, but even though most NFL teams are made up of mostly African-Americans, the fan bases are not divided on any racial or economic lines.

There is strife and depression in the USA, but not for the majority and not to the same scale as in many places in the world.

Perhaps I don't understand a true "life" passion for a sport. Perhaps my life is more fulfilling than that.
From a philosophical standpoint, you have to admit it is a bit silly to base your life on a bunch of spoiled brats running around a field kicking a ball. Those players aren't going to feed my family, or buy my house.
That's real life passion.
Loving those around you and working for that love.



[This message has been edited by jsbach (edited 11-24-1999).]

How philosophical
and true !

HAIL HAIL ALL THE SAME

Havent American sports been around for years? If so why dont any of thier sports teams have songs?

HAIL HAIL THE CELTS ARE HERE!!!!!

That's not entirely accurate.
Compared to European football teams, most American sports teams are relatively young.
Even in MLB and the NFL, most (not all) of the teams did not exist in their current form 50 years ago.

However there are a few with songs that come to mind.

The Washington Redskins (NFL) not only have songs, but a band.
The Atlanta Braves (MLB) have that crappy little war chant thing...

However, to find songs like in Europe you have to go to the college sports.
College football and basketball are filled with song. Try going to a Michigan-Indiana basketball game. You will hear "Hail to the Victors" and "Indiana, Our Indiana", among others, ad nauseum!
Every Div. 1 school has a whole arsenal of songs...
(Another difference is that in American sports, the songs tend to be sung at times when US television is showing commercials.)



[This message has been edited by jsbach (edited 11-24-1999).]

in the US, the closest thing to a rivalry influenced by something outside of soccer, like those previously mentioned, would have to be US and Iran. During the world cup, the stations here in the states gave that game a ton of publicity. and sure enough, the more passionate iranians beat up on a struggling US team in need of reform.

in the us sports, rivalries are started by the players. two players from opposing teams will get in a scuffle or fight and the next time they play the games are a lot more physical than normal. here, what town you come from doesn't deside what team you support. just as long as you stay faithful to the team you chose to support at the start. but even still, some people switch their favorite teams just as often as soccer teams update their uniforms. it reminds me of a commercial i saw recently promoting the NFL. a 6 year old kid and his father were sitting in front of the tv, both in Jets jersey's watching a game, and the father tells his son, "now remember, son, it's about being faithful" or something like that.then it shows him and his father watching games as the boy is growing up. the boy stays with the Jets but each shot has the father in a new jersey rooting for other teams. the commercial ends with a present day shot. the father is old and the boy is grown up, and the father is back to the Jets because i think they're good this year. and the father reminds his son of what he told him when he was young. that's how most of the US is. they just jump from team to team. so there is rarely long time supporters. and even more rarely, rivalries that last more than a season.

Do you really think the Iranians beat up on the US?
I watched that match, and in my opinion, the US dominated the match. They had most of the possession, and many more opportunities.
They failed to finish them and fell victim to some very skilled counter attacks.
I don't think passion had all that much to do with it.
The rivalry seemed stronger in the world media and stands than it was on the pitch. The match was very clean and a strong display of good sportsmanship on both sides.
The Iranian team is very underrated and with players like Mahdavikia, Khakpour, and Daei, I look forward to watching them face Arena's revamped US team in their upcoming match this winter.


[This message has been edited by jsbach (edited 11-24-1999).]

<< that's how most of the US is. they just jump from team to team. so there is rarely long time supporters. and even more rarely, rivalries that last more than a season. >>


That's not entirely true of US fans, although it's getting more disgustingly prevalent! http://www.soccergaming.com/ubb/frown.gif

I have been rooting for my favorite teams either since I was little (in the case of the San Francisco 49ers [NFL], San Francisco Giants [MLB], Golden State Warriors [NBA], San Jose Earthquakes [old NASL/WSL]), since I started attending college (teams of any sport from San Jose State University, my alma mater http://www.soccergaming.com/ubb/smile.gif ), or since the teams' more recent inception (San Jose Sharks [NHL], San Jose Earthquakes [MLS, ever since they started out as the San Jose Clash])!

As for rivalries in pro sports not lasting more than a season: for the most part that's true, but there are exceptions, ala the usually-heated San Francisco Giants - Los Angeles Dodgers baseball rivalry (especially for those in the San Francisco Bay Area), which is still going on since the two team were conceived in the New York area in the 1880's (I think)! http://www.soccergaming.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


-G




[This message has been edited by Goodsport (edited 11-24-1999).]

yeah, the dodgers and giants have a pretty good one, but that's also a rivalry that was started by the players instead of the fans. i've seen footage of the fight, way back, when the giants catcher was hit by a baseball bat. did they even have baseball in the 1880's?

coming from san jose you might have heard of a high school called bellarmine. we have a pretty big soccer rivalry with them. you could say it is religious because they're a catholic private school, and we're a mixed bag public school, but that's really not true http://www.soccergaming.com/ubb/smile.gif it's just becase we always play them in crusial moments in the regional tournament. we're playing them next week and everyone's buzzing about it. last time we met, they beat us in double overtime in the central coast section finals.

and with that in mind, from hands on experience, i can definitely say that the US is improving when it comes to soccer. there are a lot of brilliant players in my area.

<< did they even have baseball in the 1880's? >>

Well, I know that the then-New York Giants baseball team was formed in 1883... I remember being at the 100-year anniversary ceremony at Candlestick Park up in San Francisco when I was almost twelve during the summer of 1983 (I'm old! http://www.soccergaming.com/ubb/frown.gif )!


<< coming from san jose you might have heard of a high school called bellarmine. we have a pretty big soccer rivalry with them. you could say it is religious because they're a catholic private school, and we're a mixed bag public school, but that's really not true http://www.soccergaming.com/ubb/smile.gif it's just becase we always play them in crusial moments in the regional tournament. we're playing them next week and everyone's buzzing about it. last time we met, they beat us in double overtime in the central coast section finals. >>

Yeah, I've heard of Bellermine - you guys have a pretty good team! Actually, though, I went to Wilcox High School in Santa Clara (I live somewhat near there as well). However, I just had my ten-year high school reunion a few months ago, so I obviously haven't gone to high school for a while (like I said... I'm old! http://www.soccergaming.com/ubb/frown.gif ). It's even been a little over four years since I graduated from San Jose State University (did I mention that I'm old? http://www.soccergaming.com/ubb/frown.gif ).

By the way... didn't Joe Cannon (the current starting goalkeeper for the San Jose Earthquakes) go to Bellermine?


<< and with that in mind, from hands on experience, i can definitely say that the US is improving when it comes to soccer. there are a lot of brilliant players in my area. >>

I totally agree! http://www.soccergaming.com/ubb/smile.gif The US U-17 team just lost a semifinal to Australia, but they still went far in the tournament! The San Francisco Bay Area (and especially the South Bay) is one of the best areas in the country to find emerging young soccer talent! http://www.soccergaming.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


-G




[This message has been edited by Goodsport (edited 11-24-1999).]

>> By the way... didn't Joe Cannon (the current
>> starting goalkeeper for the San Jose
>> Earthquakes) go to Bellermine?

could have. i don't know. i don't follow the mls at all. but i do know that our coach, Tim Martin, went to bellarmine, played for the clash, and now plays for colorado. he comes back to california to coach us in the off season. i've seen a few clash games on the local fox sports channel and have heard the commentators mention bellarmine more than once though.

<< i don't follow the mls at all. >>

Why not?

Well said, Jsbach! Your explanation was right on the money!

I'm not saying that the American sports mentality is any better or any worse than the International sports mentality... that's just the way things evolved here in America. Teams beginning as business ventures in America vs. starting as clubs in other countries - THAT'S the major reason for the difference in the evolution.


-G




[This message has been edited by Goodsport (edited 11-24-1999).]

I think in baseball National League was formed in 1876? I think thats the date on the NL patch. Also I do know that soldiers would play baseball for recreation during the Civil War(1862-65). The first World Series was played in 1903.

Goodsport, if it makes you feel better, I think we're about the same age.

:-(

My 10th year reunion was last month, though I didn't go.

As a child I idolized Franz Beckenbauer, closing his career with the NY Cosmos.
(Down with "Metrostars" Up with "Cosmos"!)

Don't feel bad Goodsport-- I graduated from H.S. in 1990.

As an outsider looking in on English football, it looks like the Premiership is starting to be like the NFL is in the U.S. It just "seems" like kids in the U.K. are moving away from supporting the home club and looking to the telly for the team they like. The game is being marketed at the expense of club loyalty. I think a perfect example of this is Man United (aka Satan's XI). Its rise sort of reminds me of the way the Cowboys became "America's team" in the 70's and early to mid 90's. They also remind me of the 90's Bulls-- everyone liked the Bulls with Jordan. I know that Man U has always been popular, but now kids who would normally say they supported Brighton, WBA, or even Newcastle, call themselves United supporters even though they'll never go to Old Trafford, and they have a club 10 miles away.

In an attempt to increase revenue by broadcasting more games, and show more matches on PPV or Sky, the Premiership may dilute the passion that so many of us find intriguing. The fact that their ticket prices are beginning to get out of the range of the working class supporter only makes it worse. Just like college sports venues in America are louder and more exciting than the pros, I think the real passion for football may one day reside in the lower divisions, where the "real" supporters are. It would be a shame for top-flight soccer in the UK to become a pasttime that only the relatively wealthy can experience in person. Look and listen to NBA arenas to see what this is like. BORING (with piped in sound).

I am really sleepy, so this may not make much sense. Any thoughts?

Hello all you huns and tims out there. I have a good song for you:

Hello Hello
We are the KILLIE boys
Hello Hello
We're here to make a noise
We're up to our knees in Ayr* blood
Surrender or you'll die
For we are the ayrshire KILLIE boys!!!!!

*Pardon my French.

I think they have troubles just because of limited people going on the soccer games.
I mean, D.C, San Jose, Boston Area are very popular, but to take Dallas Burn, they have very little attendance on average game.
In Europe, every (almost) city is a soccer city.
If some small city's team would come through first division, for example in England, they would have sellouts on each game.
Its a bit different in US.

I think it will be a long time until the USA becomes a soccer nation. You ask the average Billy Yank and he would not know what soccer really is, at least not understand it.
Soccer isn't the sport on the minds of the American public. I cant say for sure (because I don't live there) but from what i've seen the Yanks are only really interested in the NBA, NHL, MLB and NFL. I think that four major sports would be enough for them.
I guess that is the case down here in Australia also. We have a large European contingent who strongly support soccer (or football, whatever, but it's soccer down here) but other than that, again, the average Aussie couldn't give a stuff. All we really care about is Aussie Rules (which to most of us is football) and Rugby (whichever, league or union, but i prefer union).
For example, some of you mention the crowd sizes in the MLS. Well in our national competition, the NSL, most games barely manage too pull 10,000 people to the stadiums. South Melbourne, Australian champions who will be representing Oceania in the World Club Championships, average about 8000 people per game! not much for Australian champions!
I guess if Australia win the U17 World Cup tomorrow more people will take notice, and if Australia had qualified for the World Cup '98 (bloody Iranians) it would be a different story but until then we are much in the same position as the MLS.