Well i remember the season, when arsenal finished 13th and our best player was schwarz. I started supporting them when i found out that ian wright was my second cousin. but i was not impressed.

next season, rioch was in and we finished 5th and bergkamp was playing for us.

next season wenger was in and we finished third

next season we won the premiership

and from then on i could not understand how arsenal have gotten to be known as one of the top teams in europe.

we havent got much money, but arsene has transformed the team. when arsenal move into a new stadium, i can see them being the last team to have made such a big transformation.

last season arsenal were euro flops, and even though we harldy made any additions, arsene wenger has got into the heads of the rival, saying we r the best in europe. even though i am an arsenal fan, i dont believe him. we will not win the champions league this season nor next but i am sure one day we will. the pitch at arsenal is to small and we cannot use width that we would normally.

from....nothing? :|

Originally posted by ogsimon
Well i remember the season, when arsenal finished 13th and our best player was schwarz. I started supporting them when i found out that ian wright was my second cousin. but i was not impressed.

next season, rioch was in and we finished 5th and bergkamp was playing for us.

next season wenger was in and we finished third

next season we won the premiership

and from then on i could not understand how arsenal have gotten to be known as one of the top teams in europe.

we havent got much money, but arsene has transformed the team. when arsenal move into a new stadium, i can see them being the last team to have made such a big transformation.

last season arsenal were euro flops, and even though we harldy made any additions, arsene wenger has got into the heads of the rival, saying we r the best in europe. even though i am an arsenal fan, i dont believe him. we will not win the champions league this season nor next but i am sure one day we will. the pitch at arsenal is to small and we cannot use width that we would normally.

how much money does arsenal have?....they have tons of great players im pretty sure it costs a lot to get them.....although i LOVE watching them play currently they are my least favorite team in the world right now ....haha.....i even took henry off my WE6 ML team ..haha.....anyway aresenal have as good as a chance to win the CL as anyone but i dont think they will.....peace and love to all you aresenal fans....i have respect for the team just not right now :crazyboy: .....peace

from nothing?? they always remain the top team in england for a since the george graham time when pple was singing boring arsenal not pretty but effective... so i don't see your point... but i must admit that arsenal still has to prove themselves in the european competition, in terms of that they are still far far far far far behind as compare to any other team in england nor team from euro.. if i'm not wrong their only european title was the uefa cup way back in the 60's... so still a lot of work to be done if arsenal were to be consider among the european top elite group.. (in term of european title won)

Originally posted by ogsimon
we havent got much money, but arsene has transformed the team. when arsenal move into a new stadium, i can see them being the last team to have made such a big transformation.


Very, very surprising remark!
You can't pay those huge wages if you aren't a rich club.
Tons of it Arsenal have!

Arsenal do not have enough respect for other European football teams. That's why they are not tearing Europe apart like they should be.

Man United do have that respect. That's why they are doing ever so well.

you lot missed his point.
His main foucs is that all of a sudden, and it is sudden, European powerhouses fear Arsenal.

Arsenal have lost the plot a bit in Europe but, it's noticeable that teams play Arsenal with considerable caution.
I haven't seen a singe team all year that outplayed Arsenal. They have all come with the intention to defend and 'get one at the other end'.

And by the way, I think it's baloney when people say that there is a certain way you play in Europe.
Wenger never says that to his credit, he states the true fact, the real difference is that suddenly you are up against eleven players that are just as good or better than you.
It's like when Tyson said, everyone has a plan until they get smacked in the mouth.

I have no worry about Arsenal, they have completely dominated the EPL for nearly two years, and I can't wait for them to line up against Madrid (I got it right this time) and/or Milan.

There is a certain way you play in Europe.

In the premiership, you can hold the ball up. The pace is slower.

European football is fast flowing football, you have to make your chances count, if you don't, it will prove costly, Newcastle proved that against Inter the other night.

Like I said, you have to show respect to other teams. Man U beat Juve 3-0 in Italy, yet they drew 1-1 with West Ham 60 days or so before. It's a massive change, Manchester United are doing a whole lot better in Europe than the premiership, just like Barcelona.

I think you probably wrote what you did not mean to say, or something like that.

And I probably did too, I am not saying that an Arsenal vs Charlton match will be the same as Arsenal vs Inter.
I am saying that Madrid, Arsenal, Barcelona play the same football in their leagues as they do in Europe.

I just don't see any major tactical changes , or any change for that matter that they would not normally utilize in a normal league match.

It's not like if ManU vs Arsenal in the FA Cup final would be a different game to Arsenal vs ManU in the Champions League final!

Like I said, you have to take your chances in the CL because you are pressured more and the game is always being chased. That's what makes Europe faster. That's what makes the difference.

Originally posted by antithesis
you lot missed his point.
His main foucs is that all of a sudden, and it is sudden, European powerhouses fear Arsenal.

Arsenal have lost the plot a bit in Europe but, it's noticeable that teams play Arsenal with considerable caution.
I haven't seen a singe team all year that outplayed Arsenal. They have all come with the intention to defend and 'get one at the other end'.

And by the way, I think it's baloney when people say that there is a certain way you play in Europe.
Wenger never says that to his credit, he states the true fact, the real difference is that suddenly you are up against eleven players that are just as good or better than you.
It's like when Tyson said, everyone has a plan until they get smacked in the mouth.

I have no worry about Arsenal, they have completely dominated the EPL for nearly two years, and I can't wait for them to line up against Madrid (I got it right this time) and/or Milan.

The fact tat Arsenal are doing so well in the EPl is that most teams have never heard of adaptation. Most english teams (especially at home) only think about attacking and play 1 one 1 in defence. With the speed of the Arsenal strikers this is deadly.
In Europe, they have recognised that Arsenal needs room to play well, dont give them this room and you will shut them out, as you could see in the games against ajax and Valencia. If the english teams wouldnt play so naive, Arsenal would have a lot more trouble winning their games.

Originally posted by Amika
if i'm not wrong their only european title was the uefa cup way back in the 60's...

Actually you are wrong... :p You are (almost) right about the fact that Arsenal won the UEFA cup a long time ago -- they won the Fairs Cup in 1969/70. I guess you forgot that Arsenal beat Parma 1-0 in the 1994 Cup-winners' Cup final...

Cheers mate! :)

Originally posted by J.Karlsson
Actually you are wrong... :p You are (almost) right about the fact that Arsenal won the UEFA cup a long time ago -- they won the Fairs Cup in 1969/70. I guess you forgot that Arsenal beat Parma 1-0 in the 1994 Cup-winners' Cup final...

Cheers mate! :)

sorry about that.. :p cause i'm not an arsenal fan... :rolleyes:

they haven't won anything significant in Europe...so theres a lot to be proved.

You are never considered a European powerhouse till you win the CL.

most of you don't even remember the feats of Dortmund or Liverpool in Europe.

2 bad seasons and most of you were quick to point out that 'Italian ffootball sucks'.....when in reality Milan and Juve have dominated Europe throughout the 90s.

So similarly, what makes you think that just 2 season of good football by Arsenal makes them aristrocrats ?

All i can say is that many of you are shallow about your footy knowledge, and to put it simply - some of you just don't know too much....just typical 'fans' who switch on their TV sets and buy a jersey.....:rolleyes:

There is a difference between European football and the EPL. In Europe you have to learn how to attack defensively, if you understand what I mean? It's where Arsenal have been caught out a couple of time and Liverpool were caught out all together.

Arsenal poor forward in attack, often leaving just 2 players at the back (Campbell is turning into a collosal defender, I haven't seen much get passed him this season). If you look at the goals they conceded against Ajax and Roma (the most recent), they really came about because of a quick, long ball, one touch and a shot. United get caught out by it occasionally in Europe too, but not as often as Arsenal have.

Liverpool, on the other hand, took an all out defensive approach. What happened was that against top rate teams that just cut through them like Valencia they had to abandon that plan as soon as they conceded, which left gaps that the opposition could then exploit because Liverpool had put-out a pre-dominantely defensive line-up.

Like anti said though, the main difference is quality of the opposing players. Arsenal play these tactics in the EPL and it's pretty safe against teams like Sunderland because they haven't got the players that Roma have. Man Utd try to play the European style in the EPL, which seams to suit the lower placed teams, and Liverpool, because they can sit back and soak up the pressure then catch them on the break later on in the game because United were attacking-defensively and they now have to get less defensive.

Anyway. I'm not really sure how quick you can call Arsenal's rise in Europe. They've been playing in the CL competition for 5 seasons now. In their 5th season Man Utd won the competition after they had reached the semi-finals (Dortmund) and quarter finals (Monaco) previously. Arsenal have reached the quarters once (Valencia) and are now playing their 5th season in the CL. Having said that they are a team that could win it this season. But like IceBlu said, Arsenal cannot consider themselves European powerhouses yet.

i am talking about present time. when arsenal play to their potential, they are one of the top 5.

Arsenal are also officially the fastest counterattacking team in Europe

Originally posted by ogsimon
i am talking about present time. when arsenal play to their potential, they are one of the top 5.

Arsenal are also officially the fastest counterattacking team in Europe

Maybe they are, but the point is, they wont get many chances to counterattack in Europe.

Originally posted by aldostuta
The fact tat Arsenal are doing so well in the EPl is that most teams have never heard of adaptation. Most english teams (especially at home) only think about attacking and play 1 one 1 in defence. With the speed of the Arsenal strikers this is deadly.
In Europe, they have recognised that Arsenal needs room to play well, dont give them this room and you will shut them out, as you could see in the games against ajax and Valencia. If the english teams wouldnt play so naive, Arsenal would have a lot more trouble winning their games.

I fully agree with this. In fact I was about to write pretty much the same. In the EPL opponents play a pretty open game (man city - Arsenal :D ) and that's great for a counter-attacking side.
Also Arsenal has a big problem at the back qua build up. Neither Campbell nor Keown are good in building up, so if they play against a team who keeps things close, like Ajax, they give a long ball which is often easy for their opponents, or Vierra comes back to defense to do proper build up, in which case Arsenal plays with a man short on midfield.
Arsenal is a very dangerous side if you play like in the EPL, but against closed defenses they are short at creativity at the midfield. Bergkamp at attacking midfield is the only one, so mark him out of the match and Arsenal has a problem.
That's why Arsenal has to look for another creative player and knowing Wenger, it should also be a Frenchman :rolleyes: so Zidane will do to help them out :)
Sofar Arsenal is not at the top of Europe in my humble opinion.

i agree arsenal need a creative midfielder in there. you are also forgetting that pires is another one of our creative players, playing on the left. Wenger knows he needs another creative player. he is trying to sign Reyes or Ronaldinho. i aslo agree about the defence. cygan is good with the build up but he has trouble with mild pace and balls over the top.


also do u think that Kanu could still do a job in europe for arsenal. when he comes on, he is good with the ball to feet and recently has improved his heading.

what players availabe do u think arsenal would need.

i think Van der Vaart would suit

from nothing ... to what exactly .... ?

I am with Yash :)

I don't know as much as Yash does when it comes to football/soccer ... but ogsimon,

never mind ... I am lost for words :o

Still the point is missing.
Arsenal's goals weren't conceded because they are naive in Europe, they were conceded because they defended poorly.

And people keep saying that Arsenal were shut out against Ajax and Valencia, well, maybe you missed the fact that those teams shut out themselves too, and that's what Ogman is saying.
He is saying that Ajax, Valencia, Roma and whomever Arsenal meet this year, with the obvious exceptions, play Arsenal with the attitude that the London team is a better attacking force than they are, so let's defend, that's not tactical brilliance, that's just an option to maximise your ability to get points against stronger opponents.

And still we hear about the Arsenal defence, but, this defence has conceded three goals.
You see this is where we become hypocrites. Juventus were awful in defence for three games consecutively, but no one will write that they can't defend and that they are naive, because they have pedigree.
Arsenal concedes 2 goals in five matches and all of a sudden they can't defend.
That's ludicrous, especially when you consider the attempts on goal against Arsenal in those 5 matches.
Arsenal have conceded less than 30 attempts on goal iN FIVE CL MATCHES.
That's not naivete, that's good defending.
And anyone who thinks you have more time on the ball in an EPL match, must be going bonkers.

the guy above is right. and the group arsenal are in incidnetally all the teams are known for their defensive stability. there is no doubt arsenal have improved. if arsenal do get to the 1/4 finals then they will come up against teams who dont defend and have these great reputations to attack that it would be beneath them to sit back and defend against arsenal, im talking about, Real, Barcelona, Juventus, Inter and to a certain extent Manchester United. these teams may see themselves as better because of their rep. if they come to attack, then 8/10 times they fall to their knees.
Now i have not forgotten Milan, they are the most dangerous of them all, they have the best defence, and can attack from all angles.
I hope arsenal do not come up against them, and also hope keown and campbell stay fit. because i would not like to see stepanovs and cygan against the likes of rivaldo, rui costa, shevchenko, and inzaghi

Originally posted by Han
....... so if they play against a team who keeps things close, like Ajax, they give a long ball which is often easy for their opponents, or Vierra comes back to defense to do proper build up, in which case Arsenal plays with a man short on midfield.


All this because ajax get 2 draws with arsenal?....give me a break... we often just dont take our chances when we get them thats the ONLY problem,the way we play i believe we only need to be adequate in defence,and be excellent in attack b'cos its our strength, how do you account for the games we've lost in the epl this season?blackburn esp(is it adaptation as well?) we create tons of chances and just waste em,same thing against ajax,roma & even valencia when they came over, people dont often realise the amount of chances we miss b'cos often we make up for them and games we should win by a couple of goals we scrape through. Everyone keeps saying but its b'cos its true, we just need to be more ruthless in taking our chances.

Talking about huge wages, you obviously dont realise that we probably have the tightest wage structure in the country. Personally i couldnt give less than a **** if were considered a european powerhouse or not(rightly bcos we havent done much),everyone knows when were hot we r really hot & they come expecting the worst but hoping for the best,thats why u see ajax and the rest clebrating after they get draws, but european football faster than the epl?:o ,i thought it was bcos teams were more smarter,technically gifted(aka slower)etc and all this other crap ppl come up with when they want to explain arsenals poor form in europe.

Originally posted by antithesis
Still the point is missing.
Arsenal's goals weren't conceded because they are naive in Europe, they were conceded because they defended poorly.

And people keep saying that Arsenal were shut out against Ajax and Valencia, well, maybe you missed the fact that those teams shut out themselves too, and that's what Ogman is saying.
He is saying that Ajax, Valencia, Roma and whomever Arsenal meet this year, with the obvious exceptions, play Arsenal with the attitude that the London team is a better attacking force than they are, so let's defend, that's not tactical brilliance, that's just an option to maximise your ability to get points against stronger opponents.

And still we hear about the Arsenal defence, but, this defence has conceded three goals.
You see this is where we become hypocrites. Juventus were awful in defence for three games consecutively, but no one will write that they can't defend and that they are naive, because they have pedigree.
Arsenal concedes 2 goals in five matches and all of a sudden they can't defend.
That's ludicrous, especially when you consider the attempts on goal against Arsenal in those 5 matches.
Arsenal have conceded less than 30 attempts on goal iN FIVE CL MATCHES.
That's not naivete, that's good defending.
And anyone who thinks you have more time on the ball in an EPL match, must be going bonkers.

I can only talk about the Ajax games, but in Amsterdam Ajax most definately wasnt shut out, they had the better chances (in London is was even).
The tactics of Arsenals opponents isnt all out defending, but to keep the space small for the Arsenal attackers. How good Henry may be, when not given space, he is not very dangerous, as goes for the entire attack.
When you judge the arsenal defence, it depends on which standard you use. When you look purely at defending, they are pretty good (Keown excepted), but if you use the dutch standard (which means football qualities), it is very poor.

Originally posted by ogsimon
the guy above is right. and the group arsenal are in incidnetally all the teams are known for their defensive stability. there is no doubt arsenal have improved. if arsenal do get to the 1/4 finals then they will come up against teams who dont defend and have these great reputations to attack that it would be beneath them to sit back and defend against arsenal, im talking about, Real, Barcelona, Juventus, Inter and to a certain extent Manchester United. these teams may see themselves as better because of their rep. if they come to attack, then 8/10 times they fall to their knees.
Now i have not forgotten Milan, they are the most dangerous of them all, they have the best defence, and can attack from all angles.
I hope arsenal do not come up against them, and also hope keown and campbell stay fit. because i would not like to see stepanovs and cygan against the likes of rivaldo, rui costa, shevchenko, and inzaghi

I dont know how you come up with this, but Ajax isnt known for their defensive stability (quite on the contrary I would say). Secondly, Im under the impression that Inter and Juve and Milan are counter attackers pur sang. I can assure you that they wont come to Highbury to win.

Originally posted by antithesis
Still the point is missing.
...people keep saying that Arsenal were shut out against Ajax and Valencia, well, maybe you missed the fact that those teams shut out themselves too.

First of all, if we do not agree with you, doesn't mean we miss the point :)
Ajax shut themselves out? Over two matches Ajax won on away goals and that can be vital for who's going through!

And still we hear about the Arsenal defence, but, this defence has conceded three goals.
You see this is where we become hypocrites. Juventus were awful in defence for three games consecutively, but no one will write that they can't defend and that they are naive, because they have pedigree.
Arsenal concedes 2 goals in five matches and all of a sudden they can't defend.
That's ludicrous, especially when you consider the attempts on goal against Arsenal in those 5 matches.
Arsenal have conceded less than 30 attempts on goal iN FIVE CL MATCHES.
That's not naivete, that's good defending.

I agree with you, Arsenal can defend very well (although Campbell and Keown are a bit static), but my point was that their defenders are weak in the build up, causing Vierra to assist them and is forced to weaken the midfield.

Orginally posted by Jigger37
All this because ajax get 2 draws with arsenal?....give me a break...

Of course not! Just an example! It is a general problem, but it shows up against a team who adapt to Arsenal, unlike in the EPL, but very much alike in the CL!

we often just dont take our chances when we get them thats the ONLY problem,the way we play i believe we only need to be adequate in defence,and be excellent in attack b'cos its our strength, how do you account for the games we've lost in the epl this season?blackburn esp(is it adaptation as well?) we create tons of chances and just waste em,same thing against ajax,roma & even valencia when they came over, people dont often realise the amount of chances we miss b'cos often we make up for them and games we should win by a couple of goals we scrape through. Everyone keeps saying but its b'cos its true, we just need to be more ruthless in taking our chances.

Either Arsenal's attack is not that good as you say, if they miss these chances, or your argument is not right.
As you absolutely can't say that the attack Wiltord-Henry-(Bergkamp, attacker or midfielder?)-Pires is weak, your argument must be incorrect.
And I think you can't say you got tons of chances against Ajax and Valencia (against Roma you did indeed!). Newcastle is a different match, donno about that, but you can adapt the wrong way, so maybe that was the case.....

Talking about huge wages, you obviously dont realise that we probably have the tightest wage structure in the country.

I don't know, I take that from you :) But a tight wage structure in the EPL is still a lot I guess; I know Bergkamp still makes far more money than most at Ajax, PSV or Feyenoord....

Personally i couldnt give less than a **** if were considered a european powerhouse or not(rightly bcos we havent done much),everyone knows when were hot we r really hot & they come expecting the worst but hoping for the best,thats why u see ajax and the rest clebrating after they get draws, but european football faster than the epl? ,i thought it was bcos teams were more smarter,technically gifted(aka slower)etc and all this other crap ppl come up with when they want to explain arsenals poor form in europe.

I can see you are not a fan of technically refined teams, as you automaticly assosiate that with slow :D
I agree, the running pace is a lot higher in the EPL, but the passing pace (one-touch football) is a lot higher at some good technically gifted teams at the continent. It's just a matter what kind of pace you like ;)
About cellebrating after a draw:
You can't blame the yougsters of Ajax that they were happy, because Arsenal was considered as the better and more experienced side. Ajax did far better than expected and now I see the tendency that people start to expect them to act like a top team (=not celebrating after draws against Arsenal), which is not fair. Ajax did a fantastic job sofar and even if they do not qualify for the quarters, they did their club proud!

Originally posted by aldostuta
... but if you use the dutch standard (which means football qualities), it is very poor.
yes the standards that have kept ajax out of the CL for how long now?..how hilarious is this.

Originally posted by jigger37
All this because ajax get 2 draws with arsenal?....give me a break... we often just dont take our chances when we get them thats the ONLY problem,the way we play i believe we only need to be adequate in defence,and be excellent in attack b'cos its our strength, how do you account for the games we've lost in the epl this season?blackburn esp(is it adaptation as well?) we create tons of chances and just waste em,same thing against ajax,roma & even valencia when they came over, people dont often realise the amount of chances we miss b'cos often we make up for them and games we should win by a couple of goals we scrape through. Everyone keeps saying but its b'cos its true, we just need to be more ruthless in taking our chances.

Talking about huge wages, you obviously dont realise that we probably have the tightest wage structure in the country. Personally i couldnt give less than a **** if were considered a european powerhouse or not(rightly bcos we havent done much),everyone knows when were hot we r really hot & they come expecting the worst but hoping for the best,thats why u see ajax and the rest clebrating after they get draws, but european football faster than the epl?:o ,i thought it was bcos teams were more smarter,technically gifted(aka slower)etc and all this other crap ppl come up with when they want to explain arsenals poor form in europe.

Looking at the games against Ajax and Valencia, they didnt create tons of chances. Of course Ajax celebrated at Highbury, a point away is a good result. After the home game most of the players were disappointed becuase they should have gotten more. The cheering indicates they had respect for Arsenal because everybody claimed they were the best in Europe. But now teams realise it is pertty easy to shut them out, which indicates that Arsenal arent (yet) a powerhouse.

Originally posted by jigger37
yes the standards that have kept ajax out of the CL for how long now?..how hilarious is this.

You can't deny Holland produces high-quality defenders (think about Stam!) and your arguement about how long we were out of the CL is dangerous.
Suppose we Dutch would reply like "how long ago won Arsenal the CL and howmany times"?? :D ;)

Ajax won it 4 (four!) times.
So a bit respect please for Ajax....:o

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Han


Either Arsenal's attack is not that good as you say, if they miss these chances, or your argument is not right.
As you absolutely can't say that the attack Wiltord-Henry-(Bergkamp, attacker or midfielder?)-Pires is weak, your argument must be incorrect.
And I think you can't say you got tons of chances against Ajax and Valencia (against Roma you did indeed!). Newcastle is a different match, donno about that, but you can adapt the wrong way, so maybe that was the case.....


No i never said they were weak,dont misquote me, i said they sometimes miss great goal scoring chances.

I don't know, I take that from you :) But a tight wage structure in the EPL is still a lot I guess; I know Bergkamp still makes far more money than most at Ajax, PSV or Feyenoord....


thats to do with the attractiveness of your league.


I can see you are not a fan of technically refined teams, as you automaticly assosiate that with slow :D

No, it doesnt mean that, i said those were the arguments people made, when trying to explain our inability to meet with the expectations eople have of us.

]

Do you mean that you find it funny that Ajax haven't been in the CL much since winning it in the mid 90s? Why so? Are you against Ajax generally, or just because a few Ajax supporters are wondering why Wenger's 'best-team-in-the-world-ever' struggled against them, and they are wondering why? Or maybe I read what you said in the wrong way?

In all honesty I'm wondering why as well. Because when the groups were announced I pretty much expected Arsenal to walk every match except for the two against Valencia. They were playing the poorest Italian team (who played with 10 men for 3/4s of the game at Highbury but were given a right pasting in Rome), Ajax (who have failed to do anything in the CL for a while now) and a strong, slick, defensive Spanish team. After all, if Arsenal struggle against these teams that do not have the players of Man Utd, Juve, Real, AC Milan, etc, why not just use the same tactics and let the extra talent tell?

On the EPL-CL debate. EPL is faster but the CL is more technical imo.

Originally posted by jigger37

thats to do with the attractiveness of your league.



Yes, attractive in terms of sponsors who want to spend money in the league. I agree with that.
Still I would ask you to pay also some attention to the Dutch PM (via Eurosport for instance) and you will be amazed by the high quality goals scored. Often even better that in the EPL!
It is not for nothing a lot of international clubs want Dutch players....

Originally posted by monkee
Do you mean that you find it funny that Ajax haven't been in the CL much since winning it in the mid 90s? Why so? Are you against Ajax generally, or just because a few Ajax supporters are wondering why Wenger's 'best-team-in-the-world-ever' struggled against them, and they are wondering why? Or maybe I read what you said in the wrong way?

No,im not against ajax(though i think kezman owns the dutch league),i just keep hearing bout this 4 CL,which i believe cant possibly make you that inexperienced(compared to one with none) as it means its the club's tradition(call it organisation culture if u will) to be successful and should pass on to players regardless of generation, it strange how no one seems to mention Basle,now thats inexepirience and theve actually beaten teams that are supposed to be way better than them.

Originally posted by Han
Ajax won it 4 (four!) times.
So a bit respect please for Ajax....:o Who will be the first to win the fifth CL title? :D

Originally posted by jigger37
No,im not against ajax(though i think kezman owns the dutch league),i just keep hearing bout this 4 CL,which i believe cant possibly make you that inexperienced(compared to one with none) as it means its the club's tradition(call it organisation culture if u will) to be successful and should pass on to players regardless of generation, it strange how no one seems to mention Basle,now thats inexepirience and theve actually beaten teams that are supposed to be way better than them.

I dont think victories from the past make the present team experienced, only matches om the highest level do (compare the first match between Ajax and Valencia with the second one). And on kezman we could open a whole new thread ;)

Originally posted by vince15
Who will be the first to win the fifth CL title? :D
If Ajax can keep this side together, it will be Ajax, 100% sure! :)

well, i think that when arsenal go to the mestella we will see how good they are, when valenica need a win. and it is basically a knock out. Valencia in my opinion have the second best defence and if arsenal knock them out then, arsenal will know where they stand.

I also rate ajax highly, i think they r a quality team, especially van der vaart.

Originally posted by ogsimon
well, i think that when arsenal go to the mestella we will see how good they are, when valenica need a win. and it is basically a knock out. Valencia in my opinion have the second best defence and if arsenal knock them out then, arsenal will know where they stand.

I also rate ajax highly, i think they r a quality team, especially van der vaart.

well look what Roma did against them in spain, its not impossible....i think in spain the better team will win.....which i think is arsenal

Remember, Ajax has been an underdog, even in the first round, cuz people hadn't heard from Ajax since the mid-95s and nobody knew the names from the squad. Only Chivu, vdVaart and Litmanen were names that stood out.

But we've got great names behind the scene (Koeman, Krol) and we have the greatest talent-school...

I'm not doubting Ajax' Ability to make it to the quarterfinals. Hell, they might even make the semi-finals :D

I also think that jeffers should start in valencia. Bergkamps goals have dried up and he does not have the effect that he used to. Aliadiere should be drafted in. and put pennant in there. we should not lose a talent like him, just as we did with upson

I hate saying it, I'll say it again: Bergkamp's time is over..I dont we'll ever see the old Dennis again...unfortunately..:(

Originally posted by Vagegast
I hate saying it, I'll say it again: Bergkamp's time is over..I dont we'll ever see the old Dennis again...unfortunately..:(

Arent you being a bit opportunistic? A few months ago Bergkamp was the best, and now his time is over?

Opportunistic? Huh? I never said (well maybe a couple of yers ago, but not a few months ago) that Bergkamp was the best..ever since he quit the Dutch National team he's been going downwards, well, he is getting older every day. How old is he? 36?

I'm not saying he sucks, he's still Arsenal-worthy (for the moment) but he's not getting better by the day...

many 36-year-olds dont get better by the day... :rolleyes:

Originally posted by bk146
many 36-year-olds dont get better by the day... :rolleyes:

they also dont start

Jeffers, should start vs. Valencia, he is in a bit of good form as of late, and should partner well with Henry up front, i think Wiltord should start this game as a laid back forward, as he can score goals, and has adaped to midfield.

Originally posted by Ljungberg08
Jeffers, should start vs. Valencia, he is in a bit of good form as of late, and should partner well with Henry up front, i think Wiltord should start this game as a laid back forward, as he can score goals, and has adaped to midfield.

Yes, and Jeffers will probably dive and get a penalty

@ Ajax Forever: Lol!

@ frostwolf: That's exactly my point..

Originally posted by aldostuta
Yes, and Jeffers will probably dive and get a penalty

that definitely will happen... ;)

These injuries Arsenal have suffered has exposed their lack of depth on the bench. Other big clubs in Europe could field a very good side that can be competitive using reserve players, but it looks like Arsenal doenst have this depth.

what. r u kidding me. Arsenal have top 3 squad in europe. they have a huge squad. we have a quality player in svard who can play at centreback. we could use another 2 defenders but that is it. we have good young players also. aliadiere, a striker who is better than jeffers from what i have seen french u-21, pennant is a good player who should b starting, jerome thomas plays left mid, etc.

we were unbeatan in last 20 games, so i dont see how this shows a lack of depth. u cannot expect teams to replace excellent players with excellent players in all positions but arsenal r close.

Example: Kanu! Ajax would die for him to come back (btw, he was mostly sitting on the bench in Amsterdam too, but when he played it was like a magician with a football).

Originally posted by ogsimon
what. r u kidding me. Arsenal have top 3 squad in europe. they have a huge squad. we have a quality player in svard who can play at centreback. we could use another 2 defenders but that is it. we have good young players also. aliadiere, a striker who is better than jeffers from what i have seen french u-21, pennant is a good player who should b starting, jerome thomas plays left mid, etc.

we were unbeatan in last 20 games, so i dont see how this shows a lack of depth. u cannot expect teams to replace excellent players with excellent players in all positions but arsenal r close. Arsenal sucks at Champions League, that's it.

Originally posted by ogsimon
what. r u kidding me. Arsenal have top 3 squad in europe. they have a huge squad. we have a quality player in svard who can play at centreback. we could use another 2 defenders but that is it. we have good young players also. aliadiere, a striker who is better than jeffers from what i have seen french u-21, pennant is a good player who should b starting, jerome thomas plays left mid, etc.

we were unbeatan in last 20 games, so i dont see how this shows a lack of depth. u cannot expect teams to replace excellent players with excellent players in all positions but arsenal r close.

No I am not kidding. Where were these 'quality' players on defense against Blackburn? You say yourself Arsenal need 2 more defenders, and they will have a hard time if their starters dont heal quickly. That looked like a division 2 line of defenders Arsenal had against Blackburn.

Originally posted by ogsimon
Well i remember the season, when arsenal finished 13th and our best player was schwarz. I started supporting them when i found out that ian wright was my second cousin. but i was not impressed.

next season, rioch was in and we finished 5th and bergkamp was playing for us.

next season wenger was in and we finished third

next season we won the premiership

and from then on i could not understand how arsenal have gotten to be known as one of the top teams in europe.

we havent got much money, but arsene has transformed the team. when arsenal move into a new stadium, i can see them being the last team to have made such a big transformation.

last season arsenal were euro flops, and even though we harldy made any additions, arsene wenger has got into the heads of the rival, saying we r the best in europe. even though i am an arsenal fan, i dont believe him. we will not win the champions league this season nor next but i am sure one day we will. the pitch at arsenal is to small and we cannot use width that we would normally.

I must admit that Arsenal is the only team that i enjoy to watch in England. They really come from "nothing" (compared to all European BIG GUNS like Real Madrid,Barcelona,AC Milan,Juventus,Man Utd(ugly team),Bayern Munchen,Sporting Lisbon,Inter) and became one of the most effective teams in Champions League. I think that Arséne Wenger had a lot of importance on importing his way of play(very continental) and on the new player wave that give the team the enought talent to be champion-players like Henry,Robert Pires,Ljundberg,Patrick Vieira,Silvestre and Wiltord ,are that kind of player. In my opinion there's only one team in the world that is superior to Arsenal, and that team, is obviously, real Madrid.

For me , the 10 best teams in Europe are :

1- Real Madrid
2- Arsenal
3- Juventus
4- Manchester United
5- Inter Milan
6- AS Roma
7- Valência
8- FC Porto
9- Bayern Munchen
10- Newcastle:mrpimp: :mrpimp:

Originally posted by ALVALADE-XXI

For me , the 10 best teams in Europe are :

1- Real Madrid
2- Arsenal
3- Juventus
4- Manchester United
5- Inter Milan
6- AS Roma
7- Valência
8- FC Porto
9- Bayern Munchen
10- Newcastle:mrpimp: :mrpimp:

Im afraid I cant agree with you on this one. Ajax should most definately be mentionedb in any top ten.

Yes, Jeffers would dive...i hate it when he does that...

No denying tho, he can be a quality attacker.

Kanu should get more playtime too.

Originally posted by ogsimon
Arsenal are also officially the fastest counterattacking team in Europe

That's probably true but do you know why? It's because of Arsenal's small pitch, it really is very small so Arsenal have developed a very effective style for playing at Highbury, the fast counterattacking move however when they have tried it in europe (away from home) it never works...why do you think Arsenal are so lethal at home in the premierleague, a lot of it has to do with the size of the pitch. It was the same when Southampton played at their old ground (forgot the name) before moving to St. Mary's, they had a very small pitch too and caused a lot of teams problems.

Arsenal are amongst the Top10 european teams but not in the Top10 of Champions League teams in terms of being succesful in the Champions League.

bit off that theory is, seeing as they havent won at home in a cl match in a while eh :)

Originally posted by bk146
bit off that theory is, seeing as they havent won at home in a cl match in a while eh :)

Well, european football is different....and it was 10am when I wrote that so...:p

@ Al: Porto and Newcastle in the top ten, nah, add Ajax and Barcelona.