azazel52
26-10-2003, 04:40:PM
I’ve been playing the pc demo for hours (practically since it came)and I think I’ve completely mastered it in Pro (played World Class just for a little while; don’t want to ruin the final version for me). Well here’s my ten cents worth.
Just to start of I’d like to tell you that I’ve played every fifa under the sun, and am normally on world class within a day or so. (and no, I’m not a fifa fanboy, I just take the best option on the pc). I haven’t played anything from konami due to the fact that I don’t have a console, except for ISS 3, which quite frankly is the worst game in the history of computer games, so we’ll just put that aside. I’m not downloading the PES demo because its just too goddamn large, but I’ve downloaded tons of videos of it (and WE 7), pics, and read reviews/previews of the game, because I wanted to have a preview of what the fuss is all about. So based on these things I will also try to put some things in perspective in the PES vs FIFA war (note the mild terms… I haven’t played PES3 so all I can do is outline what could possibly be the ‘battle-fronts’ so to speak in this, so don’t eat me alive. I’m reserving my final opinion till I play both full versions)
I’d also like to say that I play football actually too, and I’m pretty damn good at it. I’ve learned my football in Italy (where I lived for most of my childhood), played in and been the captain of all my schools’ first teams and local district teams. So don’t go telling me I don’t know what football is all about.
GAMEPLAY
First of all, FIFA 2004 is HARD. I saw people in the forum talking about 12-0 scorelines in world class. Well they must have found a loophole I didn’t. It has never taken me more than a day or two to switch to world class in ANY fifa and be competitive. In this demo, I could barely win in pro for the first 2-3 days (which is about 5-6 hours of playing, I’m a busy person). Even when I did start winning, it wasn’t that I would win every time. At first (as expected… sore loser that I am) I attributed it to ‘sluggish’ controls, superhuman computer cheating, and horrible passing assistance (just pass the f’in ball to the LEFT!!!).
Once I got past this phase however, I realized that I was losing because FIFA 2003 had spoiled me. Passing was just too easy in that (On world class). You could practically pass from one wing, right to the other side of the penalty box, and the defenders would just peel away and watch and wait as the ball crawled to ur team-mate, at which point when they suddenly ‘woke’ up. Too late! I was trying to make such ‘incisive’ :p passes through the centre, and they kept being blocked in FIFA 2004, so I couldn’t get any penetration.
Moreover, in fifa 2003, if you stopped sprinting around and slowed the game down (i.e. by keeping possession, passing), the ai would slow down as well and pretty much let you to the edge of the penalty box no problem. In fifa 2004, sprinting or standing still, you ain’t getting past the back 4 without some serious trickery.
I have to say, the defensive AI is absolute SUPERB! I feel like I’m battering my head against a stone WALL trying to score. You really have to work them apart. The videos that I saw of PES3/WE7 didn’t make me feel that their defensive AI is any better (rather worse). The forwards would not be covered as well as FIFA 2004 (where u have to lure the defenders away to make space…. You will NOT find any ‘free’ defenders around).
However, all FIFA games have this problem in defensive AI: It is brilliant in terms of the competition around, but has:
a.) At least one sure shot scoring loophole
b.) One or two scenarios which are much easier to score from relative to the other ones
What this means is that no matter how good the rest of the AI is, even if you don’t use any loopholes, you will still end up trying those couple of scenarios again and again simply because they are so much easier relative to the others… Hence the fact that all FIFA goals end up being the same. PES I don’t think can rival the best of the FIFA defensive AI, but at least it is consistent, so that people can try many different ways to score without feeling that one method gives a huge marginal advantage over the others.
Here is my biggest observation of PES. They keep it simple and consistent and give complete control to the player to do whatever he wants, hence its popularity with hardcore games who want their skill to be imprinted on the match result, rather than coded limitations based on real life limitations. (I will substantiate this statement again in this review)
The defensive AI in FIFA 2004 is thankfully almost completely clean of the above disease. The one blemish (and that only in pro and below) is due to the combination of shooting and goalkeeping. Its not that the shooting is too fast… its too fast and accurate. If you go into the red, the shot is quick but inaccurate, however if u stay in the yellow, the shot is accurate… but not much slower. Somebody should fix this. Similarly, on long range shots, goalies (in the real world) see the shot earlier, so they start running in the right direction, so that they are in diving reach when the ball reaches the goal. Here I have to say PES 1:0 FIFA. The goalies in all the videos (of PES)I saw did exactly that. In fifa however, they seem to be sleeping until the ball reaches the penalty spot, and since in long shots, the goalies have a larger angle to cover, they are not within diving reach. This problem however seems fixed in WC in two ways:
a.)goalies are better
b.)Its hard to get a clean shot from ANYWHERE
Overall, attacking is very challenging. Anyone who says this is arcade play obviously hasn’t played it.
The defensive AI of the human team used to irritate me with its ineptness. Now I LOVE it. I can’t just control one player and hope the rest do their job. On attacks or counter attacks I have to immediately scan the entire situation and quickly switch players to make sure they’re all where I need them e.g. if a winger is coming up in a counter attack, I’ll often let him come forward, but start blocking everyone he could pass too. Once you get the hang of this, this is unbelievably enjoyable.
The Attacking AI of the Computer is BRUTAL. They will take you apart unless you are very alert to all the opposition shirts around you. They are so brutal that initially you start hating the game, but once you get the hang of it, you’ll love it.
Here comes my BIGGEST COMPLAINT OF FIFA2004 DEMO though. Its hard to attack through the wings (or anywhere apart from the centre for that matter). And unless you force the CPU otherwise, it always blitzes down the centre. Now if in the final version u can change style of play otf to say wing based, and the CPU style changes with different teams and situations in the match (which possibly required more space to put in the demo), I’d say this is a near perfect game. Otherwise, good still (I will buy it), but I’d have to say, the PES people were right.
That said, ALL YOU HARDCORE PES FANS OUT THERE: NO SINGLE PLAYER GAME IS EVER HUGELY FUN AFTER EVEN 3-4 MONTHS OF PLAYING. ALL TIME GREATS SUCH AS HALF-LIFE, QUAKE, DEUS-EX, DOOM ARE SLATED TO HAVE PLAYING TIMES IN THE ORDER OF A FEW WEEKS. SO IF YOU SAY THAT YOU STILL HAVE AS MUCH GAMEPLAY FUN AFTER A YEAR ON PES, YOU ARE JUST BLIND TO THE FACTS. AND THIS IS WHERE FIFA WINS. YOU SHOULD TELL YOUR KONAMI THIS. ONCE THE GAMEPLAY IS MASTERED, MAX IN 3 OR SO MONTHS, FIFA ELONGATES IT LIFE WITH MANY REAL TOURNAMENTS AND LICENCES. IF ONLY KONAMI WERE SMART ENOUGH TO UNDERSTAND THIS, I WOULD BURN ANY FIFAS I HAVE RIGHT THERE AND THEN!
The GOODIES
Movements/Animations : Here I think FIFA made a misjudgement. (before PES fans start rejoicing, let me say, PES isn’t even IN this battle. If FIFA had such simplistic and generic movements, it would look super fluid and smooth as well). The organic movement, when pulled of looks gorgeous, however, the system I think has not been perfected, and in pushing a bit too hard to create real world movement, the animations sometimes seem weird. A good and bold step though
Graphics: Well, barring the crowds, FIFA was the king and will always be the king
Player Models: Well… they take some getting used to heh (Edgar Davids = Neolithic MAN? lol) , but far more realistic looking than PES anyday (and I’m sure of this, I don’t need to play pes to decide this, just the pics and videos are enough).
I need to play the full PC version to comment on the rest.
I just have one word of advice to you people. If I made a soccer game with just a dot for a ball and bigger dots for players, I’d probably come up with the best AI simulation ever. But it’s the entire package that matters. More complex player movements, options etc… makes implementing the same AI harder. So while PES might give you complete control, I cannot say that the PES3 gameplay will necessarily better than FIFA2004, simply because they cannot touch fifa in many other aspects. And while PES3 might be a good game for multiplayer since it lends you complete control (so you can have a completely skill based match), I still feel that FIFA models real soccer control better. The ball has a weight, the player’s momentum has a weight fellows, If you are trying to model that the game SHOULD feel heavy (which pes people call sluggish) rather than super fluid and pinball like. You want pure control, go to PES without a look back; you want real world soccer like control, which means no complete control and many flukes, go to FIFA. Remember soccer is played by human beings, not robots, the challenge is just not to have good strategy, but a large part of the challenge is also to do the basics right; passing, running, turning etc…
Anyway, I’d say go for both. Today should be the deciding year to say which will be the only game you will buy for next year
Just to start of I’d like to tell you that I’ve played every fifa under the sun, and am normally on world class within a day or so. (and no, I’m not a fifa fanboy, I just take the best option on the pc). I haven’t played anything from konami due to the fact that I don’t have a console, except for ISS 3, which quite frankly is the worst game in the history of computer games, so we’ll just put that aside. I’m not downloading the PES demo because its just too goddamn large, but I’ve downloaded tons of videos of it (and WE 7), pics, and read reviews/previews of the game, because I wanted to have a preview of what the fuss is all about. So based on these things I will also try to put some things in perspective in the PES vs FIFA war (note the mild terms… I haven’t played PES3 so all I can do is outline what could possibly be the ‘battle-fronts’ so to speak in this, so don’t eat me alive. I’m reserving my final opinion till I play both full versions)
I’d also like to say that I play football actually too, and I’m pretty damn good at it. I’ve learned my football in Italy (where I lived for most of my childhood), played in and been the captain of all my schools’ first teams and local district teams. So don’t go telling me I don’t know what football is all about.
GAMEPLAY
First of all, FIFA 2004 is HARD. I saw people in the forum talking about 12-0 scorelines in world class. Well they must have found a loophole I didn’t. It has never taken me more than a day or two to switch to world class in ANY fifa and be competitive. In this demo, I could barely win in pro for the first 2-3 days (which is about 5-6 hours of playing, I’m a busy person). Even when I did start winning, it wasn’t that I would win every time. At first (as expected… sore loser that I am) I attributed it to ‘sluggish’ controls, superhuman computer cheating, and horrible passing assistance (just pass the f’in ball to the LEFT!!!).
Once I got past this phase however, I realized that I was losing because FIFA 2003 had spoiled me. Passing was just too easy in that (On world class). You could practically pass from one wing, right to the other side of the penalty box, and the defenders would just peel away and watch and wait as the ball crawled to ur team-mate, at which point when they suddenly ‘woke’ up. Too late! I was trying to make such ‘incisive’ :p passes through the centre, and they kept being blocked in FIFA 2004, so I couldn’t get any penetration.
Moreover, in fifa 2003, if you stopped sprinting around and slowed the game down (i.e. by keeping possession, passing), the ai would slow down as well and pretty much let you to the edge of the penalty box no problem. In fifa 2004, sprinting or standing still, you ain’t getting past the back 4 without some serious trickery.
I have to say, the defensive AI is absolute SUPERB! I feel like I’m battering my head against a stone WALL trying to score. You really have to work them apart. The videos that I saw of PES3/WE7 didn’t make me feel that their defensive AI is any better (rather worse). The forwards would not be covered as well as FIFA 2004 (where u have to lure the defenders away to make space…. You will NOT find any ‘free’ defenders around).
However, all FIFA games have this problem in defensive AI: It is brilliant in terms of the competition around, but has:
a.) At least one sure shot scoring loophole
b.) One or two scenarios which are much easier to score from relative to the other ones
What this means is that no matter how good the rest of the AI is, even if you don’t use any loopholes, you will still end up trying those couple of scenarios again and again simply because they are so much easier relative to the others… Hence the fact that all FIFA goals end up being the same. PES I don’t think can rival the best of the FIFA defensive AI, but at least it is consistent, so that people can try many different ways to score without feeling that one method gives a huge marginal advantage over the others.
Here is my biggest observation of PES. They keep it simple and consistent and give complete control to the player to do whatever he wants, hence its popularity with hardcore games who want their skill to be imprinted on the match result, rather than coded limitations based on real life limitations. (I will substantiate this statement again in this review)
The defensive AI in FIFA 2004 is thankfully almost completely clean of the above disease. The one blemish (and that only in pro and below) is due to the combination of shooting and goalkeeping. Its not that the shooting is too fast… its too fast and accurate. If you go into the red, the shot is quick but inaccurate, however if u stay in the yellow, the shot is accurate… but not much slower. Somebody should fix this. Similarly, on long range shots, goalies (in the real world) see the shot earlier, so they start running in the right direction, so that they are in diving reach when the ball reaches the goal. Here I have to say PES 1:0 FIFA. The goalies in all the videos (of PES)I saw did exactly that. In fifa however, they seem to be sleeping until the ball reaches the penalty spot, and since in long shots, the goalies have a larger angle to cover, they are not within diving reach. This problem however seems fixed in WC in two ways:
a.)goalies are better
b.)Its hard to get a clean shot from ANYWHERE
Overall, attacking is very challenging. Anyone who says this is arcade play obviously hasn’t played it.
The defensive AI of the human team used to irritate me with its ineptness. Now I LOVE it. I can’t just control one player and hope the rest do their job. On attacks or counter attacks I have to immediately scan the entire situation and quickly switch players to make sure they’re all where I need them e.g. if a winger is coming up in a counter attack, I’ll often let him come forward, but start blocking everyone he could pass too. Once you get the hang of this, this is unbelievably enjoyable.
The Attacking AI of the Computer is BRUTAL. They will take you apart unless you are very alert to all the opposition shirts around you. They are so brutal that initially you start hating the game, but once you get the hang of it, you’ll love it.
Here comes my BIGGEST COMPLAINT OF FIFA2004 DEMO though. Its hard to attack through the wings (or anywhere apart from the centre for that matter). And unless you force the CPU otherwise, it always blitzes down the centre. Now if in the final version u can change style of play otf to say wing based, and the CPU style changes with different teams and situations in the match (which possibly required more space to put in the demo), I’d say this is a near perfect game. Otherwise, good still (I will buy it), but I’d have to say, the PES people were right.
That said, ALL YOU HARDCORE PES FANS OUT THERE: NO SINGLE PLAYER GAME IS EVER HUGELY FUN AFTER EVEN 3-4 MONTHS OF PLAYING. ALL TIME GREATS SUCH AS HALF-LIFE, QUAKE, DEUS-EX, DOOM ARE SLATED TO HAVE PLAYING TIMES IN THE ORDER OF A FEW WEEKS. SO IF YOU SAY THAT YOU STILL HAVE AS MUCH GAMEPLAY FUN AFTER A YEAR ON PES, YOU ARE JUST BLIND TO THE FACTS. AND THIS IS WHERE FIFA WINS. YOU SHOULD TELL YOUR KONAMI THIS. ONCE THE GAMEPLAY IS MASTERED, MAX IN 3 OR SO MONTHS, FIFA ELONGATES IT LIFE WITH MANY REAL TOURNAMENTS AND LICENCES. IF ONLY KONAMI WERE SMART ENOUGH TO UNDERSTAND THIS, I WOULD BURN ANY FIFAS I HAVE RIGHT THERE AND THEN!
The GOODIES
Movements/Animations : Here I think FIFA made a misjudgement. (before PES fans start rejoicing, let me say, PES isn’t even IN this battle. If FIFA had such simplistic and generic movements, it would look super fluid and smooth as well). The organic movement, when pulled of looks gorgeous, however, the system I think has not been perfected, and in pushing a bit too hard to create real world movement, the animations sometimes seem weird. A good and bold step though
Graphics: Well, barring the crowds, FIFA was the king and will always be the king
Player Models: Well… they take some getting used to heh (Edgar Davids = Neolithic MAN? lol) , but far more realistic looking than PES anyday (and I’m sure of this, I don’t need to play pes to decide this, just the pics and videos are enough).
I need to play the full PC version to comment on the rest.
I just have one word of advice to you people. If I made a soccer game with just a dot for a ball and bigger dots for players, I’d probably come up with the best AI simulation ever. But it’s the entire package that matters. More complex player movements, options etc… makes implementing the same AI harder. So while PES might give you complete control, I cannot say that the PES3 gameplay will necessarily better than FIFA2004, simply because they cannot touch fifa in many other aspects. And while PES3 might be a good game for multiplayer since it lends you complete control (so you can have a completely skill based match), I still feel that FIFA models real soccer control better. The ball has a weight, the player’s momentum has a weight fellows, If you are trying to model that the game SHOULD feel heavy (which pes people call sluggish) rather than super fluid and pinball like. You want pure control, go to PES without a look back; you want real world soccer like control, which means no complete control and many flukes, go to FIFA. Remember soccer is played by human beings, not robots, the challenge is just not to have good strategy, but a large part of the challenge is also to do the basics right; passing, running, turning etc…
Anyway, I’d say go for both. Today should be the deciding year to say which will be the only game you will buy for next year