Daniel David
Youth Team
MelvinSmiley;2900997 said:
That would kill the joke, which would be unfortunate since some people here do actually have a sense of humour.
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Brazil: COLOSSAL disappointment
- Thread starter ArgVega
- Start date
That would kill the joke, which would be unfortunate since some people here do actually have a sense of humour.
Sevillista
Starting XI
The reference was pretty obvious. If you don't get it, don't blame the poster for not spelling it out for you.MelvinSmiley;2900997 said:
+1 Argvega
Well, well...here I am, with my face ready to be slapped.
Allow me now to respond to some of the previous assertions in the most straight forward possible.
ARROGANCE
I'm sorry if my confident way was confused with arrogance. Yes, I bragged about Brazil. I said that it was going to be in the final match, even in another post. But let me see if I got this straight: it's football, right? Not tennis, where you can barely whisper and you'll be called unpolite, or golf. It's meant to be vibrating, emotional. It's not a chess game too, when you have to wait for your opponent's mistake in order to make your move and then, only then say anything or celebrate. This is football. It's party, it's a great encounter of belifes, of histories. If I'm not allowed to express it in my own way...someone has to move. If I'm supposed to see it only and strictly in an analytic, tied-collar way...damn, maybe we're watching different sports here. Once again, however, if I offended anyone, my apologies.
Many people probably thought that was all a huge demonstration of arrogance since I also posted something against I. Coast's behavior, in that "famous" and already parodied thread. After all, Brazil defeated Côte, what else should I want? And I even dared to say something against their behavior? What is that? Once again, this is my football fan emotional behavior. I can't stand demonstrations of arrogance, specially physical ones. And it's my opinion. It's supposed to be respected and agreed or disagreed with the same respect.
I established in my mind a clear difference between what it is and what is not arrogance in football: when you believe your team, and you 'predict' scorings, titels...that's confidence. When you relate your confidence with patriotism or racial pride, that's arrogance. It's my view.
I'd also like to claim for those who judge me or any other easily hateable brazilian fan to take a good look at themselves and finally realize if their target isn't aiming those brazilians because well, they're also football fans and of course, they want their teams, not Brazil, to win. So, some of those who judged me and my style under the terms of anti-arrogance, maybe should check if they're not also acting in the same passionate way, but expressed differently. The true reason why brazilian fans are hateable has solely to do with the fact that Brazil is a very strong side - which wasn't our case in this Cup's.
DUNGA
I supported him, because that man is bold. He dared Globo TV, the most powerful TV broadcaster of Brazil - and the 5th biggest in the world, closing the training ground and giving them and any other TV of the world the same space and time to talk to Brazilian players. He was picked up by them, and dirtly and subtly provoked and humiliated. Of course that yesterday as the game went to its end and Brazil's dream to the drain, the critics poured their poison out strong and generously. But they're right about their statements.
Being bold against the media wouldn't win a Cup. Players win a Cup. Goals win a cup. And Dunga, for lack of creativity or good support - as it was clear in the I. Coast match, when he was advised to not sub Kaká - and maybe a little bit of courage to go against his own rules, which is absolutely necessary to win a challenge when you're in charge of other people; wasn't capable of sealing his performance as a coach with the golden seal. He won everything he could across these 3,5 years...but the big meat is bound to other mouths...and I doubt they're south americans.
With his unnecessarily stubborn atittude he commited predictable mistakes: Felipe Melo was a train down the hill, since Fiorentina, actually since Gremio. EVERYONE knew that. And in the most dramatic and important match for Brazil in the Cup, it all came down to that moment of animal, ashameful fury that many people had already seen in their minds.
He also exposed Kaká. Kaká barely played for Real in the last season, and specially in the last months. It was obvious he wasn't ready for a Cup. Of course he wouldn't leave him out, but at least, having someone to back him up, such as Ronaldinho, wouldn't harm anyone. In the contrary, if it wasn't motivative, perhaps would give Kaká comfort and peace to work his football without the pressure of being The 10. Ronaldinho maybe didn't finish his season that well in Milan, but he finished better than Kaká. Instead of Dinho, Dunga took Kleberson. What were Kleberson achievements this year? Recover from his injury and disturb Corinthians in Libertadores? 6 months and a chance to a WC for that?
Everyone will crush Maradona now, but he was crazy enough to take 6 forwards instead of 6 midfielders. That was a craziness bound to Brazil, because Brazil needed it. We didn't have forwards finishing their seasons with excellent performances (Argentina had Tevez in great, great shape for Man City, as well as Milito - my god, and that's a great shape! - and also Higuain and Di Maria) so they didn't really need so many attacking players, while yes, perhaps a Cambiasso and a Zanetti wouldn't be too bad. Brazil in the other hand was in eager need of creative, decisive players, and Dunga wasn't "Maradona" enough to realize that.
There's nothing to be fixed now, it's done. But if I was Dunga, I'd have a clear talk with Ronaldo and Roberto Carlos. I'd ask 'em how bad did they want to go this last Cup of their career. I'd give them a goal and time to acomplish it. Ronaldo, obviously would have to go down several and several kilos. And I'm pretty sure that since the very own Brazil's coach talked to him, he'd give his best to get it. And he would. It's quite utopic but when I think about it, I really believe it. And Roberto, well, he didn't need anything to come back in great shape like he is now.
So, if I could turn back in time and advise Dunga, here's my 23 (some of them, like I said, utopic) to South Africa:
GK
Julio Cesar (Inter) - Gomes (Tottenham) - Vitor (Grêmio)
DF
Maicon (Inter) - Dani (Barça)
Roberto Carlos (Corinthians) - Bastos (Lyon)
Lucio (Inter) - Juan (Roma) - Luisao (Benfica) - Thiago (Milan)
MF
Gilberto Silva (Panathinaikos) - Cristian (Fener) - Ramires (Benfica) - Hernanes (São Paulo FC)
Kaká (Real) - Elano (Galatasaray) - Ronaldinho (Milan) - Diego (Juventus)
FW
Robinho (Santos) - Fabiano (Sevilla) - Nilmar (Villareal) - Ronaldo (Corinthians)
Allow me now to respond to some of the previous assertions in the most straight forward possible.
ARROGANCE
I'm sorry if my confident way was confused with arrogance. Yes, I bragged about Brazil. I said that it was going to be in the final match, even in another post. But let me see if I got this straight: it's football, right? Not tennis, where you can barely whisper and you'll be called unpolite, or golf. It's meant to be vibrating, emotional. It's not a chess game too, when you have to wait for your opponent's mistake in order to make your move and then, only then say anything or celebrate. This is football. It's party, it's a great encounter of belifes, of histories. If I'm not allowed to express it in my own way...someone has to move. If I'm supposed to see it only and strictly in an analytic, tied-collar way...damn, maybe we're watching different sports here. Once again, however, if I offended anyone, my apologies.
Many people probably thought that was all a huge demonstration of arrogance since I also posted something against I. Coast's behavior, in that "famous" and already parodied thread. After all, Brazil defeated Côte, what else should I want? And I even dared to say something against their behavior? What is that? Once again, this is my football fan emotional behavior. I can't stand demonstrations of arrogance, specially physical ones. And it's my opinion. It's supposed to be respected and agreed or disagreed with the same respect.
I established in my mind a clear difference between what it is and what is not arrogance in football: when you believe your team, and you 'predict' scorings, titels...that's confidence. When you relate your confidence with patriotism or racial pride, that's arrogance. It's my view.
I'd also like to claim for those who judge me or any other easily hateable brazilian fan to take a good look at themselves and finally realize if their target isn't aiming those brazilians because well, they're also football fans and of course, they want their teams, not Brazil, to win. So, some of those who judged me and my style under the terms of anti-arrogance, maybe should check if they're not also acting in the same passionate way, but expressed differently. The true reason why brazilian fans are hateable has solely to do with the fact that Brazil is a very strong side - which wasn't our case in this Cup's.
DUNGA
I supported him, because that man is bold. He dared Globo TV, the most powerful TV broadcaster of Brazil - and the 5th biggest in the world, closing the training ground and giving them and any other TV of the world the same space and time to talk to Brazilian players. He was picked up by them, and dirtly and subtly provoked and humiliated. Of course that yesterday as the game went to its end and Brazil's dream to the drain, the critics poured their poison out strong and generously. But they're right about their statements.
Being bold against the media wouldn't win a Cup. Players win a Cup. Goals win a cup. And Dunga, for lack of creativity or good support - as it was clear in the I. Coast match, when he was advised to not sub Kaká - and maybe a little bit of courage to go against his own rules, which is absolutely necessary to win a challenge when you're in charge of other people; wasn't capable of sealing his performance as a coach with the golden seal. He won everything he could across these 3,5 years...but the big meat is bound to other mouths...and I doubt they're south americans.
With his unnecessarily stubborn atittude he commited predictable mistakes: Felipe Melo was a train down the hill, since Fiorentina, actually since Gremio. EVERYONE knew that. And in the most dramatic and important match for Brazil in the Cup, it all came down to that moment of animal, ashameful fury that many people had already seen in their minds.
He also exposed Kaká. Kaká barely played for Real in the last season, and specially in the last months. It was obvious he wasn't ready for a Cup. Of course he wouldn't leave him out, but at least, having someone to back him up, such as Ronaldinho, wouldn't harm anyone. In the contrary, if it wasn't motivative, perhaps would give Kaká comfort and peace to work his football without the pressure of being The 10. Ronaldinho maybe didn't finish his season that well in Milan, but he finished better than Kaká. Instead of Dinho, Dunga took Kleberson. What were Kleberson achievements this year? Recover from his injury and disturb Corinthians in Libertadores? 6 months and a chance to a WC for that?
Everyone will crush Maradona now, but he was crazy enough to take 6 forwards instead of 6 midfielders. That was a craziness bound to Brazil, because Brazil needed it. We didn't have forwards finishing their seasons with excellent performances (Argentina had Tevez in great, great shape for Man City, as well as Milito - my god, and that's a great shape! - and also Higuain and Di Maria) so they didn't really need so many attacking players, while yes, perhaps a Cambiasso and a Zanetti wouldn't be too bad. Brazil in the other hand was in eager need of creative, decisive players, and Dunga wasn't "Maradona" enough to realize that.
There's nothing to be fixed now, it's done. But if I was Dunga, I'd have a clear talk with Ronaldo and Roberto Carlos. I'd ask 'em how bad did they want to go this last Cup of their career. I'd give them a goal and time to acomplish it. Ronaldo, obviously would have to go down several and several kilos. And I'm pretty sure that since the very own Brazil's coach talked to him, he'd give his best to get it. And he would. It's quite utopic but when I think about it, I really believe it. And Roberto, well, he didn't need anything to come back in great shape like he is now.
So, if I could turn back in time and advise Dunga, here's my 23 (some of them, like I said, utopic) to South Africa:
GK
Julio Cesar (Inter) - Gomes (Tottenham) - Vitor (Grêmio)
DF
Maicon (Inter) - Dani (Barça)
Roberto Carlos (Corinthians) - Bastos (Lyon)
Lucio (Inter) - Juan (Roma) - Luisao (Benfica) - Thiago (Milan)
MF
Gilberto Silva (Panathinaikos) - Cristian (Fener) - Ramires (Benfica) - Hernanes (São Paulo FC)
Kaká (Real) - Elano (Galatasaray) - Ronaldinho (Milan) - Diego (Juventus)
FW
Robinho (Santos) - Fabiano (Sevilla) - Nilmar (Villareal) - Ronaldo (Corinthians)
!tinytim;2901551 said:
I'm no stupid, I don't believe in fairy tales like you.
Thats my motive not to say something as stupid and arrogant as "Brazil will win this cup and the next and open 3 cup gap on Europeans who never win outside of Europe"
1) Brazil didn't win this cup, we'll see about the next.
2) Hmm what a coincidence, the champion of this world cup can definately be from Europe. They has 3/4 in the semis, and its outside of Europe?
BTW, this is dumb discussion. Atleast we can say we leave this world cup with a little joy. Brazil failed, and Argentina failed. I think we both a little happy it turned out like that.
ArgVega;2901557 said:I'm no stupid, I don't believe in fairy tales like you.
Thats my motive not to say something as stupid and arrogant as "Brazil will win this cup and the next and open 3 cup gap on Europeans who never win outside of Europe"
1) Brazil didn't win this cup, we'll see about the next.
2) Hmm what a coincidence, the champion of this world cup can definately be from Europe. They has 3/4 in the semis, and its outside of Europe?
BTW, this is dumb discussion. Atleast we can say we leave this world cup with a little joy. Brazil failed, and Argentina failed. I think we both a little happy it turned out like that.
I'm a little happier because we didn't take four kicks in the ass...just one and a half.
ShiftyPowers
Make America Great Again
Brazil is a really good team, and they have the perfect squad for modern football. They lost because of set pieces and poor discipline. I'm sure most of the world is longing for more "Samba Football", but Dunga found the right way to win in the modern game, you were just unlucky because of the things mentioned above. If I had to handicap the odds again, and you sent me in a Time Machine to Match Day 1, I would still put Brazil as the favorites.
ShiftyPowers;2901668 said:
I have to partly agree here. His tactics are quite decent, this team has managed to ally a lil bit of samba, whilst not forgetting defensive awareness and relying on deadly counter-attacking football. For four years until this Holland match, Brazil were the most successful team on the world, winning every thing (i've said every thing) possible.
Dunga's faults stand for the players he called up and his lack of a plan B. Our manager looked lost when we were 2-1 down, almost as he didnt have no alternatives to change that dreaded scenario. And when we take a close look at our bench, well, he didnt. We didnt have any match winners to bring in, and we know what happened. But anyway, 2014, here we go...
Yes. Tactically, there isn’t much to criticize Brazil. Our errors were, basically:
1. Lack of concentration. That led to the errors in set pieces (and to the goals by North Korea and Côte d’Ivoire).
2. Players selection. That led to poor discipline and lack of (skilful) alternatives.
By the way, have you noticed how Spain has been playing with a formation very similar to Brazil’s? 4-2-3-1 is very common nowadays, but the thing that makes Brazil’s and Spain’s so similar to each other is: both are lopsided, with a striker on the left flank (Robinho/Villa) and a midfielder on the right flank (Elano/Iniesta).
Similar on paper, of course. Interestingly, Spain doesn’t seem to be playing very well with this formation, albeit having better midfield players than Brazil. Perhaps because their “wide” players tend to go central so much? I’m not sure.
1. Lack of concentration. That led to the errors in set pieces (and to the goals by North Korea and Côte d’Ivoire).
2. Players selection. That led to poor discipline and lack of (skilful) alternatives.
By the way, have you noticed how Spain has been playing with a formation very similar to Brazil’s? 4-2-3-1 is very common nowadays, but the thing that makes Brazil’s and Spain’s so similar to each other is: both are lopsided, with a striker on the left flank (Robinho/Villa) and a midfielder on the right flank (Elano/Iniesta).
Similar on paper, of course. Interestingly, Spain doesn’t seem to be playing very well with this formation, albeit having better midfield players than Brazil. Perhaps because their “wide” players tend to go central so much? I’m not sure.
I feel for Dunga. His style was more likely to result in success than that Samba crap from 50 years ago. Those days are come and gone....it will NOT work anymore.
A backup plan was lacking. When you fall behind you've got to respond rather than panic/give up like Argentina.
A backup plan was lacking. When you fall behind you've got to respond rather than panic/give up like Argentina.
emmer;2901978 said:
Spain are showing the same problems we did when facing defensive opposition. There are some stuff they dont have in common with us, a "brucutu" for instance (emmer will get this, but for our english/european/whatever folks, we use that word to define a tough defensive mid, known for his tackling, roughness and overall lack of ability, a Gattuso type of player).
They're struggling with their play because Torres is lacking anything ressembling form, and he's an important part of their tactical plan. Fabiano, on the other hand scored three goals before saying goodbye to the tournament. None of their midfield players are ball-stealers (Busquets, which plays more deep defensively speaking, is the best one they have at midfield). Alonso and Xavi are best known for their passing. Their marking, on the other hand, leaves something to be desired.
And then they dont have that vertical, incisive player like Kaka. Even though he wasnt in the best of forms, he added another dimension to our midfield, because he tried to do some interesting runs and link up plays with Fabiano and Robinho. Always running forward and trying to break up defenses with dribbling. Iniesta does this, on the flanks, whilst Xabi and Xavi tend to control tempo, and sometimes (sometimes) try that killer pass, which is something that's not working in this WC, given the ultra-defensive stance of their opponents.
Guess that's Spain biggest trouble, they play the possession game, try passing their way into goal. When it doesnt work, you need a dribbler, and they dont have that type of player. When Iniesta managed to dribble past an opponent, Spain scored their goal against Paraguay. Sometimes passing is not enough. Let's see how the fare against Germany.