FIFA 10 substitution bug

Discussion in 'FIFA 10 Support Forum' started by SAMUELKATALAN, Dec 13, 2009.

  1. Champion757

    Champion757 Youth Team

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2009
    Messages:
    479
    Likes Received:
    1
    Well I'd like to report that I did play one game where the CPU made two different non-injury substitutions, relieving two different players. This is a good sign. This means that this bug isn't a 100% bug, which is very encouraging.

    The time when this happened I had the DO_CPU_SUB = 10. (instead of = 1)

    There were also times when the bug still occurred with DO_CPU_SUB = 10 so I don't know if that had anything to do with it.

    But I'm pretty sure when they subbed two different players (instead of replacing the subbed player in their second sub) I made two subs before the CPU made their first sub.

    So nothing is conclusive at all, but it's definitely a good sign that there was a game where this bug didn't occur and the CPU made proper subs. Has anyone else had a game where the CPU didn't replace their first non-injury sub with their second sub?

    It's important that you guys share your findings in your games and let me know if there are times where the CPU doesn't replace their first sub.

    If we can isolate the conditions surrounding when that happens then we can get closer to fixing this bug.
     
  2. silvone

    silvone Starting XI

    Joined:
    May 18, 2008
    Messages:
    2,914
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Calarasi, Wallachia
    Quite interesting! so, did you tried another value instead 10?
     
  3. Champion757

    Champion757 Youth Team

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2009
    Messages:
    479
    Likes Received:
    1
    I also tried 100. I only witnessed the CPU making correct subs when it was set to 10. Maybe try values 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, or 9, too. 2 or 3 probably has the best chance of it happening. Or try 10 like I did and play a few matches and see if the CPU makes correct subs. Try making subs yourself in different ways. Like try making a halftime sub, then another quick sub early in the 2nd half and see what the CPU does. Or make no subs. Try to figure out when the CPU is subbing correctly.
     
  4. regularcat

    regularcat Manager Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    12,819
    Likes Received:
    201
    i make no subs 85% of the time & they still do it, there is no way around this.
     
  5. Champion757

    Champion757 Youth Team

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2009
    Messages:
    479
    Likes Received:
    1
    In the last game I played, the CPU made two subs replacing two different players with two new players off the bench. (no bugs)

    In the second-to-last game I played, the CPU made 3 subs, the first two subs replacing two different players with two new players off the bench. However, the 3rd sub they made replaced the second sub. (no bugs in the first two CPU subs, the 3rd sub being the bug)

    And there were no CPU injuries in these games.

    So I have not witnessed the second sub bug in my last two games. This is very encouraging. I don't mind if the CPU makes a 3rd sub and it replaces the second sub. That's not that bad. The main issue is the second sub replacing the first.

    So I have seen this issue get much better. I don't know why they are subbing better now. Maybe it has something to do with DO_CPU_SUB = 10. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I play 90 minute matches. Maybe it has something to do with the stamina parameters I put in. (that don't seem to be doing anything but maybe are affecting CPU subs somehow)

    All I know is this issue has been alleviated one way or another. It may still happen again, but i can live with it if it doesn't happen all the time or happens with the 3rd CPU sub instead of the 2nd.
     
  6. SAMUELKATALAN

    SAMUELKATALAN Senior Squad

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2005
    Messages:
    1,860
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Las 500, San Miguelito Panama
    Good contribution, I'll do that myself and then see what happends thanks very much
     
  7. regularcat

    regularcat Manager Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    12,819
    Likes Received:
    201
    what params did you put in dash ?
     
  8. Rayzor127

    Rayzor127 Youth Team

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2001
    Messages:
    238
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Providence, Rhode Island, USA
    Hi,

    I never noticed this bug until I read this thread. Now I'm noticing it several times but not always in every game.

    One recent game, I noticed the CPU subbed a forward in the 56th minute. I immediately kicked the ball out of bounds with a bad pass and the CPU subbed in another player for the one that just came in and it was still just the 56th minute! And I was able to confirm this when I went into the Match Facts screen.

    It doesn't seem to be happening in a consistent manner and I haven't tried changing any parameters to test yet.
     
  9. Champion757

    Champion757 Youth Team

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2009
    Messages:
    479
    Likes Received:
    1
    Hey. Yeah dude. Same here.

    I've never had them sub the same player out in the same minute. For me they usually sub their first sub around the 52nd minute mark, and usually they sub him out by the 58th minute. But sometimes they don't and they sub out another player who is actually fatigued. (like they should be)

    I dunno, like, this is a pretty major bug if you ask me. Others seemed to think since there's apparently no way to solve it 100%, why worry about it. But, that's not really good enough. I mean, in real soccer, that would never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever happen. Not once in the history of soccer has a player been subbed in and subbed out in the same minute in a non-injury situation, especially when the stamina bug that plagues 45 minute half matches makes it so by the second half, almost no players can sprint by halftime and most players, especially midfielder actually need to be substituted. To waste a sub on a player who was just subbed in is cataclysmically wrong and is a major, major bug. Not just a little annoying but that no one cares about but a real, actual bug that hinders the gameplay and should not be tolerated under any circumstances. To make matters worse, there's apparently no parameters that can alleviate this situation in any 100% way. I mean obviously this should never happen on default, but with all the ai and logic parameters in ai.ini, you would think there would be specific parameters that adjust the CPU substitution A.I.


    Well I've changed the DO_CPU_SUBS parameter to 10 instead of 1 and it seemed like the CPU make better subs but it could totally be coincidence and really do nothing.

    Above anything else, the issues of FIFA 10 that stand out most are :

    -Stamina depleted way too early in 45 minute half matches. players especially midfielders can barely sprint by the second half

    -No option for continuous clock

    -No option for 45 minute halves

    -CPU subs in and subs out the same player within seconds, wasting a sub that could be used to sub out a fatigued player

    -In stoppage time, the clock does not continue to run past 45:00 and 90:00 despite accurate stoppage time being used and play continuing. (yea if there's 4 minutes of stoppage time, i'd like the clock to continue to count 90:01, 90:02, all the way to 94:00 and even beyond depending on if there are more stoppages during stoppage time - like when you are watching a real match)

    These things may not matter to some people, perhaps those that just like playing a quick game or something. But these are issues that people who take football gaming seriously should not tolerate. They are huge bugs / poor design decisions whatever you want to call them and for a game this popular really is just a terrible oversight by the developers.

    Doesn't help that their competition (PES / WE) likely has some of the same in-game options / issues and the fact that there is no way to solve a lot of these issues so therefore people can't afford to care that much about it.

    Luckily, people like you, Rayzor127, exist to at least bring these issues to light.

    I will say that in UCL 06/07 on PC, the CPU subs seem fine and the stamina depletion remains accurate over 45 minute halves. So perhaps there is some way to edit the FIFA 10 exe so it operates as it did in UCL 06/07 with regard to CPU subs and stamina depletion.

    For the record, in UCL 06/07, I don't remember if the CPU commonly makes more than 1 non-injury sub per game. I'll have to play it this week and see how they sub in that game. But all I know is I don't remember them ever subbing in a player that they subbed out with no injury occuring.
     
  10. StevePitts

    StevePitts Senior Squad

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2001
    Messages:
    1,275
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Kings Langley, England
    I wonder whether these bogus substitutions are related to an attempt to change the team style to cater for the game situation (eg. switching to a more attacking formation, subbing in an extra attacker, but then deciding to switch back to a more defensive formation, subbing back in a midfielder, etc.) which is why they only happen some of the time??

    Given that the substitutions only take place on a stoppage of play, it is quite possible that you'd never see it, especially if you are patient in your build up play and therefore take time off the clock between breaks in play.

    From the comment in the INI file I would guess that this parameter has just two meaningful values, with 1 meaning that the AI performs tactical substitutions and 0 meaning that it does not.

    Funny old world, isn't it, because none of those things bother me anything like as much as:
    • the fact that the mouse interferes with navigating the menu items using either the keyboard or the gamepad
    • the fact that the wrong controller vibrates (I have two identical Logitech Rumblepad 2s and when I hit a post, or am taking a penalty, the one I'm not using starts bouncing up and down on the desk!!)
    • the fact that some real world players have characters in their names that don't display in game (they show as a rectangle with diagonal cross in it)
    • the fact that friendlies get scheduled after the season rather than before
    • the fact that team experience gets stuck at five (unless you hack the database metadata)
    • the fact that XP growth gets reset every time you sign a player to your team
    • the fact that FA Cup replays get scheduled but have no effect on the result of the tie
    • the fact that many of those bugs have been in existence for at least three releases of the game

    Different strokes for different folks, I guess :)
     
  11. Champion757

    Champion757 Youth Team

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2009
    Messages:
    479
    Likes Received:
    1
    Potentially fascinating and quite possible. The CPU sub logic related to the priority of team styles (which was just implemented in this year's game) and / or game situations could indeed be overriding the priority of the subbing of fatigued players / players who started the game. The problem could indeed lie in the fact that when a player is subbed in, that player and his fatigue / stamina level and the fact that he just entered the game plays no part in who gets subbed for the second sub. It could be 100% related to the position and where the need game scenario / team style wise lies. This is actually probably what is happening. In essence, the CPU sub logic should bypass the position of the player who was subbed in with the first sub and the logic should only factor in the remaining 9 players who started the game (not including the GK and the first sub) from who is subbed out with the second sub. If there are no ini parameters to adjust this logic, then perhaps it is possible to look in the exe file for CPU sub logic. (which I have no idea how to do). Perhaps this logic is in one of the files in the zdatas. I don't know but someone could be a real hero if they figured out where that CPU sub logic lies.

    The question I have is has anyone observed this CPU sub bug in FIFA 08 or FIFA 09? If this issue did not occur in those games, then it's probably related to the team styles implemented in 10. (This is one thing that someone should please answer because the only games I have played prior to FIFA 10 on PC were FIFA WC 06 and Uefa Champions League 06/07.

    One thing I do like about FIFA 10 is that they usually make at least 2 non-injury subs a game, sometimes even 3 non-injury subs, which is great. If I recall from UCL 06/07, they usually only made 1 sub a game. (not sure about this I'll have to play a few games and verify this)

    Actually, on this point I can confirm that I do see it. Even if the ball is still in play, the substation indicator pops up on the screen, making you aware the the CPU is queuing a sub for the next stoppage of play. I have never seen a CPU team sub-in one guy and the sub indicator popup within the same minute of play following that sub. (keep in mind I am playing with real-time minutes with 45 minute halves, so unless Rayzor127 is playing with 45 minute halves, to see this happen within the same minute on his game (lets say he's playing 10 minute halves), it would have to be immediate with the ball going out of bounds following the first sub within a few seconds of game action. I have seen times where the CPU has subbed out two non-injury players in at once, but never one sub then another sub within the same minute, let alone subbing the player who was subbed in first out with the second sub.

    I would guess the same thing too but I did read on another thread from an old FIFA game (I think FIFA 2003) that some guy tried to change the DO_CPU_SUB value for some other reason, and said he tried values of 10 and 100 and it had some effect. (forget exactly what the reason was and what the difference was, I'll have to try and find that thread) But yeah so I tried DO_CPU_SUB = 10, I am currently using DO_CPU_SUB = 2. No idea if it does anything, but it can't hurt to try.



    • Haven't noticed this. I don't even use the mouse to navigate the menus. I strictly use my logitech dual action gamepad to navigate the menus.

      That's funny. I only have one controller at the moment. Come to think about it, maybe this is an issue because my controller never vibrates even though I believe it is set to vibrate in game and vibrates in other games. I'll have to look into this. I would think a semi-fix would be to unplug the second controller in-game so it doesn't vibrate. But that of course wouldn't solve the problem of the controller you are playing with not vibrating. Perhaps something values in devdata.dat can perhaps fix this.

      Hrmm. This could be a font issue on your machine. Can you give me an example of a player who has the rectangle with diagonal cross in-game so I can check it on my game?

      Haven't even started playing leagues. Too busy trying to get exhibition games right. No way I could play a league until I figure out how to fix the stamina issue for 45 minute half matches, meaning it's quite possibly I'll neve play a league. :(

      Again unfamiliar with this due to my inability to get past the issue of exhibition games.

      Heard about this issue. Yeah this sucks. There's gotta be someway around that. (I hope)

      Yeah this is really really annoying from what I hear. I've read people are having nightmares about phantom second legs of playoffs too.

    Yeah I'd like to know which of this issues have been present in FIFA 08 and FIFA 09. The general consensus seems to be that FIFA 07 was better than FIFA 08. Given the fact that the most recent game I've played in UCL 06/07, which is similar to the FIFA 07 engine, it's quite possible that FIFA 07 / UCL0607 were the last game to not have a lot of these issues. Hopefully we can create a running tally on exactly which of these bugs were present in FIFA 08 or FIFA 09.

    Yeah, I wish I was able to even get into Leagues and stuff, but until I can resolve some of the issues with 45 minute half matches (mainly the stamina depletion issue and the CPU sub logic issue for FIFA 10), I may have to go back to UCL 06/07 to play Leagues. (the Treble it's called)

    I will say that one thing I really miss is the 4 by 4 on the fly tactics in-game interface, triggered by the 4 d-pad directions)

    I love being able to send wings in motion on the fly in-game, switch between zonal and man-to-man marking defense on the fly in-game in UCL 06/07. Adds so much to the gameplay. And as great as team styles is in theory, it's a lot of new complexity to the gameplay and you can't switch anything on the fly, which takes away a lot of the enjoyment out of the strategy during games, especially multiplayer games.

    I also wish there was a way to use team-specific formations in FIFA 10 and still have the ability to adjust all the different team style options. It seems that when you use the team-specific formation in team styles, all of the team style options (like zonal marking for example) that aren't set to On by default cannot be turned on, unless of course you switch to a base formation like 4-4-2 or a created formation. But I see no reason why they had to gray those options out? Why can't you play with a team-specific formation and still set zonal marking or something to on even if it's off by default? Makes no sense.
     
  12. StevePitts

    StevePitts Senior Squad

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2001
    Messages:
    1,275
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Kings Langley, England
    You make it sound so easy, but that kind of reverse engineering is going to be borderline impossible even with a specialist debugging setup

    I certainly didn't notice it with FIFA 08, and I suspect that I would have. I didn't bother with FIFA 09 so cannot comment on that version.

    The difficulty with any INI editing that affects the gameplay is identifying cause and effect, especially with a situation like this where the problem is intermittent.

    Nor do I generally (although I wil occasionally use it to select an option if I'm not sure which button performs the action, especially on pages that have half a dozen or more choices) but the location of the mouse pointer affects the behaviour of the menus when navigating with either the gamepad or the keyboard IME

    Bogdan Ionut Lobont, the AS Roma goalie is the first example I found in the problem comments in my code but I've seen many others. The t at the end of his surname and middle name both have a cedilla accent, which is why they have a special encoding that the game signally fails to display on my Windows XP system

    Whilst I've not found any way to affect this in game, there are settings in the CAREER.INI that control how quickly players recover between matches, so you could probably mitigate the issue by fiddling with those settings.

    The only obvious solution involves saving the XP growth values before signing a player and then reinstating them afterwards (in the case of a player signed from the shortlist or youth academy that can be done straight away, but other players join your club immediately after a game so you lose any growth accumulated during that particular match). I believe that it is possible to handle the saving and re-loading using Rinaldo's Internal Master, with a bit of manual file editing in the middle, but I still do it by hand using a hex editor and my EAFFSaveValidator utility (which re-calculates the CRC values)

    To the best of my knowledge only the team experience and cup replay bugs are new (although the latter might have been in FIFA 09 too - as I've said I didn't play it)

    Obviously 'better' is a hugely subjective term, but I certainly had more fun with FIFA 07, which I played for a full year and completed sixteen different seasons (in two different manager modes), than with FIFA 08, which I lost interest in before the new year rolled around and only completed three seasons with.

    A couple of them date back that far (or beyond) and there are others that have either been eliminated since or which I've not had a chance to scope out with the new version (the 30 player limit problems being the most egregious)

    I guess that fell victim to the team styles, which are now too complicated to control by such a simple mechanism. I have to say that I use/used the mentality switch far more often than the tactics change, but obviously it was a nice feature to have.

    I've not fiddled much with team styles yet, nor figured out exactly how they are represented in the data (there are 11 new fields in the teams data, three of which look like on/off switches and the rest percentages, and a teamstyles value in teamwrite, with the latter ranging from 0 to 16383 so I'm guessing that it holds fourteen bit switches) but I would guess that since the styles affect how the game positions players that working out all the combinations for over 500 different formations was just too complicated for them.
     
  13. regularcat

    regularcat Manager Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    12,819
    Likes Received:
    201
    try putting this in your user|locale.ini as it has removed many of the issues
    w/ tildes & other foreign accent markers in my game, which now display.


    DEFAULT_TEXT_LANGUAGE = eng
    INSTALL_LANGUAGE=eng

    []
    AVAILABLE_LANGS = eng,fre,ger,spa,ita,por,swe,Shifty,dut,chi,jap,rus,kor,nor,por,pol
     
  14. StevePitts

    StevePitts Senior Squad

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2001
    Messages:
    1,275
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Kings Langley, England
    Nice idea, but (fortunately, since I have that variable set to just eng to get rid of the language selection prompt on start up) it doesn't make any difference.

    Do you see a t cedilla at the end of Lobont's name in game (he is the first team goalie at AS Roma)??
     
  15. Rayzor127

    Rayzor127 Youth Team

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2001
    Messages:
    238
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Providence, Rhode Island, USA
    Yes, I'm only playing 10 min halves which may/may not be why the sub happened immediately. Definitely wasn't tactical since the game never actually continued, ball just went out of bounds right away then immediate sub for same guy in same minute.
     
  16. nacholas95

    nacholas95 Club Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2009
    Messages:
    72
    Likes Received:
    0
    please someone help me!............

    [​IMG]
     
  17. regularcat

    regularcat Manager Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    12,819
    Likes Received:
    201
    stop spamming thread nacholas, your looking for a temporary ban.
     
  18. Champion757

    Champion757 Youth Team

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2009
    Messages:
    479
    Likes Received:
    1
    Just an update regarding this bug. I played one match and the bug did not occur. The CPU made 3 subs all replacing starters. Then I played another match and the bug happened.

    So it seems like there's a 50% chance of the bug happening when I play the CPU. I thought that perhaps it has something to do with formations / team styles. I played against a team running a 4-4-2 and the bug did not occur. Then I played a team with a different formation and it happened. In both games one of their players got injured and had to be replaced. In both games, the CPU used all 3 of their subs.

    How often have you guys seen this bug in your matches? Have you noticed any trends as to what causes the CPU to replace subs with subs when there are guys who are very fatigued left in the match?

    Have any of you found ways to adjust the rate of stamina loss / fatigued? I play 45 minute matches and most players are fatigued by halftime.
     
  19. Champion757

    Champion757 Youth Team

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2009
    Messages:
    479
    Likes Received:
    1
    Another update on this bug. I tried putting in a very large value into DO_CPU_SUB. (like a value of over a trillion)

    I can't say it did anything, but for the first time ever I saw the CPU sub two different players in at once. But I will say that the bug seems to have about a 50% repro rate. Literally, every other game it seems to occur. But the good news it that somehow this bug has been minimized. Even when the bug occurs now, it is usually occurring when the 2nd sub is replaced by the 3rd sub. I also have a hunch that this bug is related to team styles. Earlier in this thread, StevePitts mentioned that it could be team styles that caused this problem. Frankly, I think there is some parameter in team styles that increases or decreases the probability that the CPU subs out the previous sub.

    It seems like this bug is happening less since I imported a bunch of new teams into my FIFA through CM10. It also could be due to stamina, so I am adjusting the attribute ranges to try to see if anything changes. I'm trying to investigate this bug at a game by game level, trying to see if my opposing team's formation of team style may trigger this bug. Perhaps it could be like the bug happens when a team plays a very aggressive style more than a team that plays a passive style. You know, maybe a team that is fatigued heavily at halftime may trigger this bug due to stamina levels. Or maybe it's a team that is passive. That is basically what I am trying to isolate.

    To anyone who owns and actually plays FIFA WC 2010. Was this cpu substitution bug fixed? Did the team styles system change in WC 2010?

    I usually don't ask questions about console versions of FIFA, but since WC 2010 did not come out for PC, this could give us an indication of whether EA was aware of this bug, and whether we can expect it to be fixed for FIFA 11 PC. (assuming this bug is in all versions of FIFA 10) If this bug wasn't fixed in FIFA WC 2010, then we should make sure EA is aware of this bug on the PC version since FIFA 11 PC is currently under development.
     
      

Share This Page