Gaza Strip

Deisler

Red Card [Being a douche] exp. 22/1/06
Alternative? Targeted assasination. Worked before, will be used again.

That is not the point though. Regev made it sound like the Qassam rockets and the tunnels were the main focus of the offensive. Well according to the IDF the rocket number is down to 3000 from an innitial 100000. And yet the offensive has goten stronger and stronger. The civilians are being send txt messages while the phones dont work because the power sources have been bombed. And when they do get the messages they have no place to go. Even the hospitals and the ONU schools have been hit, multiple times. What Israeldoes as soon as a sensitive target is hit they play the 'they hide rockets' in schools card. Mosques, hospitals, schools and other vital institutions are not allowed to be targeted. Even at war it is against every convention.

Face it, what is happening is not self defense, it is murder. If they keep it up it will become systematic ethnic cleansing.
 

Pogba4Now

Team Captain
Mandieta6;3714324 said:
That's ridiculous. Hamas is firing rockets from congested areas and using their civilians as human shields. They have explicitly said that the human shield tactic has been tremendously successful. Hamas has done nothing to limit their civilian casualities and benefit from them. The only people who have shelters are Hamas leaders and civilians are turned away from them and told to stay at their houses even if they are warned of a bombing.

Israel, on the other hand, underreports casualties to avoid helping Hamas improve their aim, they have set up the proper defenses and work to help civilians.

I hate when people just point at the figures because, to use a football analogy, it would be like seeing the Spain-Netherlands match and saying the latter must be tremendous without considering the culpability of the former's defense.

Please point out to me how Israel can dishabilitate Hamas without civilian casualties. I have never heard a single suggestion for an alternative plan of action Israel could pursue other than twiddle its thumbs.

There is no evidence that Hamas (or I should say, H*mas) is using civilians as "human shields" other than Israeli sources. As examples:

BBC's Middle East editor, Jeremy Bowen, has written, "I saw no evidence during my week in Gaza of Israel's accusation that Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields."

the Middle East and North Africa Director at Human Rights Watch, who said that "in most of the sites we investigated so far (in this conflict) we found no valid military targets"

Amnesty International has reported in a statement that it "does not have evidence at this point that Palestinian civilians have been intentionally used by Hamas or Palestinian armed groups during the current hostilities to “shield” specific locations or military personnel or equipment from Israeli attacks"

All those quotes are from unbiased sources. They do not come directly from Israel or Hamas.
 

clash

Senior Squad
People should stop acting as if this is a anti-terrorist operation. It's a political one. Israeli government is not just "dealing with" Hamas. Also, in what sense would Hamas need to be dealt with anyway? It's a (radical) political (islamist) movement with a militant wing, supported by large numbers of Palestinians who are not radicals, let alone terrorists. It needs to be "dealt with" politically and, if needed, by precise attacks on its militants. I don't believe IDF is reckless by accident, one of the best armies in the world cannot take out hundreds of civilians by accident. It is a strategical/tactical choice, a costly one. A bit of an arbitrary example, but shit makes me think of a huge hostage situation. If Israel was to save the kidnapped Nigerian girls from Boko Haram, they would decide to kill the kids with the terrorists and blame the kidnappers for using a human shield. Also, this: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/24/israel

As for the human shield, the pure existance of the rockets in the Gaza Strip is enough for IDF to say Hamas is using the human shield tactic. Yes IDF sometimes "warns" the people about the coming airstrike. But where are the people supposed to go? It's a small area and a dense area. Especially after IDF declared a 1,8 km wide "buffer zone" between Israel and Gaza, where everyone was told to leave. So, it is bordering with Israel, the Mediterranean fucking Sea and Egypt. The Egyptian-Palestine border is mostly heavily controlled or even closed for Palestine refugees. It's not that Hamas doesn't let people leave, it's more that the best place for the Palestines to leave is a sea.

Also, the warnings themselves. They usually come 3 minutes before the attack. Also, sometimes the warnings are as deadly as the bombings, as they sometimes use non-explosive shells that they drop on the roof before the real shit comes down. So imagine, you're having a dinner with your family, you hear the warning. You have like 2 minutes to take your 85-year old mum and your 3-year old daughter with you and make a run for it, knowing that you won't have a home to return to. So you get on the streets, trying to make your way to a safer place...which doesn't exist, because every UN shelter, school, hospital that were supposed to safe from the bombings are already in ruins.

Going back to where I started. It's political. Netanyahu himself said that Israel can't afford to lose control over the eastern areas and they were about to. For the first time Fatah and Hamas were close to coming together, forming a government together, that's a remarkable thing for anyone who knows anything about the politics in the area. That would've been more dangerous for Israel than all the rockets shot from Gaza combined. Hamas has put forward its terms for ceasefire, political demands.

Hamas' militant wing has never had any problems taking responsibility for their terrorist acts. The kidnapping and killing of the 3 Israeli teens is widely being brought up when needing to reason the current operation. Hamas has not taken responsibility for it. Everyone from analysts to the head of Israeli police, have stated openly that if it would've been an act by Hamas, they would've known about it beforehand. That it was either by a isolated small cell within Hamas or didn't have anything to do with Hamas at all. So to me, the best way to DEAL with Hamas right now is stop culling innocent civilians and to start political processes that include the political wing of Hamas.
 

shorelooser

Club Supporter
If you study both sites of history , they are both freedom fighters !

The world PUSHED the isrealis to its way to isreal and simultaneously the palestinian FLED away! So both sites fighting for their freedom ... i think thats the prime point in that conflict ! i do not tolerate the happenings
 

Pogba4Now

Team Captain
"More than 1,900 Palestinians, mostly civilians, have been killed, according to the UN.

Sixty-seven people have died on the Israeli side, including three civilians."

A mosque has been bombarded and 3 dead bodies have been pulled from it. How can you justify that? Can't be more obvious than that. Killing 95% civilians is not called self defense. This is pure hatred and murder.
 

Pogba4Now

Team Captain
Palestinian deaths

1,922 killed, including at least 1,407 civilians
448 children
235 women

Israeli deaths

64 soldiers
2 civilians
1 Thai national in Israel

Killing that many civilians/children/women and calling it "self defense" is the most shameful thing ever.
 

MaestroZidane

YELLOW CARD: Untrustworthy
Yet Hamas and it's supporters are more than happy to let the ceasefire end so they can continue their attacks on Israel.
 
MaestroZidane;3717938 said:
Yet Hamas and it's supporters are more than happy to let the ceasefire end so they can continue their attacks on Israel.

that's the attitude we should be talking about surely..

firing random rockets to civilian areas and then hiding behind civilians, and whining about civilian casualties.. 8|


I'm not defending israel, but hell I'm not with palestine either.. I'm only sorry for those kids who died..
 

Alex

sKIp_E
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Theodorakis;3718015 said:
that's the attitude we should be talking about surely..

firing random rockets to civilian areas and then hiding behind civilians, and whining about civilian casualties.. 8|


I'm not defending israel, but hell I'm not with palestine either.. I'm only sorry for those kids who died..

Yep. That's my exact summation of the situation basically.
 

Pogba4Now

Team Captain
MaestroZidane;3717938 said:
Yet Hamas and it's supporters are more than happy to let the ceasefire end so they can continue their attacks on Israel.

Hamas should stop firing at Israel but that's not a bloody excuse for Israel to kill even more innocent people.
 

Alex

sKIp_E
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
nady;3718049 said:
Hamas should stop firing at Israel but that's not a bloody excuse for Israel to kill even more innocent people.

Nobody ever said it was an excuse. Nor did anybody ever say it was ok.

We simply said both sides are in the wrong, and until that stops, nothing will change.
 

Pogba4Now

Team Captain
Totally agree but there's nothing more shameful and cowardly than Israel's homicide of innocent people. Hamas is at least targeting military personnel. Israel is obviously not.

Israel's claim that Hamas as using civilians as "human shields" is totally unfounded. There is very little to no evidence.

That being said, I agree that both sides are in the wrong and I've said it before.
 

Alex

sKIp_E
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
nady;3718082 said:
Totally agree but there's nothing more shameful and cowardly than Israel's homicide of innocent people. Hamas is at least targeting military personnel. Israel is obviously not.

Israel's claim that Hamas as using civilians as "human shields" is totally unfounded. There is very little to no evidence.

That being said, I agree that both sides are in the wrong and I've said it before.

Israel also aren't purposely putting their civilians in harms way to help to get the Nady's of the world support them.

There is plenty of evidence that Hamas do little to stop civilian casualties, and in fact do plenty to encourage them. Not literally "human shields" but weapons in schools, not allowing people to move etc are all for the same purpose.
 


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