• This is a reminder of 3 IMPORTANT RULES:

    1- External self-promotion websites or apps are NOT allowed here, like Discord/Twitter/Patreon/etc.

    2- Do NOT post in other languages. English-only.

    3- Crack/Warez/Piracy talk is NOT allowed.

    Breaking any of the above rules will result in your messages being deleted and you will be banned upon repetition.

    Please, stop by this thread SoccerGaming Forum Rules And Guidelines and make sure you read and understand our policies.

    Thank you!

[OFFICIAL] Operation Iraqi Freedom - Conflict in Iraq

rhizome17

Fan Favourite
Ok, my analysis of those polls. Firstly, it does look like they are all related to the one poll undertaken by the Oxford Research International group.

Secondly, I don't think that they show uncategorically that Iraqis overwhelmingly want the US there. The ABC stats show that a majority want the coalition forces gone, even though they don't support attacks on coalition forces.

And I think that this is indicated when you look at how hte Iraqis view their life post-Saddam. Indeed, looking at the stats one could say that a mjority think their life is better. BUT that is not the whole story - when you look at the breakdown, the majority of these people say that their lives are SOMEWHAT better (35%). Now, if they are only rating their life as 'somewhat' better, then that is a group of people who are going to change their views depending on temporal changes. Add these to the people who say 'about the same', and of course those who think things are worse, then the situation isn't so rosy. All it takes is one event (for example, Bremer shutting down the Shia newspaper) and then there can be a domino effect, where those who rate their lives as 'somewhat better' may change their views. This is increasingly likely if they end up as casualties in any US response to attacks.

If I were part of the coalition, I would not be too heartened by those polls, because obviously you want a clear majority saying things are much better now, especially one year into the occupation. If people are not perceiving a great benefit, then it makes for a volatile situation that can turn into the scenes we have seen the last few days. And the heavier the response of the troops, the more discontent will be fostered. Too many innocent people are getting caught in the crossfire, and like it or not, the blame is being put on the americans.

I mean, how 'secure' can things be if Sadrs militia can take over a few towns at will?
 

Elder

Starting XI
Originally posted by rhizome17
Ok, my analysis of those polls. Firstly, it does look like they are all related to the one poll undertaken by the Oxford Research International group.

Secondly, I don't think that they show uncategorically that Iraqis overwhelmingly want the US there. The ABC stats show that a majority want the coalition forces gone, even though they don't support attacks on coalition forces.

And I think that this is indicated when you look at how hte Iraqis view their life post-Saddam. Indeed, looking at the stats one could say that a mjority think their life is better. BUT that is not the whole story - when you look at the breakdown, the majority of these people say that their lives are SOMEWHAT better (35%). Now, if they are only rating their life as 'somewhat' better, then that is a group of people who are going to change their views depending on temporal changes. Add these to the people who say 'about the same', and of course those who think things are worse, then the situation isn't so rosy. All it takes is one event (for example, Bremer shutting down the Shia newspaper) and then there can be a domino effect, where those who rate their lives as 'somewhat better' may change their views. This is increasingly likely if they end up as casualties in any US response to attacks.

If I were part of the coalition, I would not be too heartened by those polls, because obviously you want a clear majority saying things are much better now, especially one year into the occupation. If people are not perceiving a great benefit, then it makes for a volatile situation that can turn into the scenes we have seen the last few days. And the heavier the response of the troops, the more discontent will be fostered. Too many innocent people are getting caught in the crossfire, and like it or not, the blame is being put on the americans.

I mean, how 'secure' can things be if Sadrs militia can take over a few towns at will?

Your observations are interesting to say the least. I think you are right in the fact that small changes day to day, like the paper closing, or the fighting that is taking place right now can shift opinion rapidly.

But there are many reports out of Iraq that you really don't see in the news that things are getting better for most people. You have to also remember the al Quada letter claiming to want to stoke a civil war to create chaos. So far, it looks like it's working, and this bastard sheik is helping it right along.

What's funny is this guy who we are after was an exile in Iran, his father was murdered by Saddam, and he thinks the US is the enemy. The only reason he is where is right now is because of the damn US. It sounds like a powerplay to me, and the quicker he is shot dead, the better for all Iraqi's.

But I do agree with you on anothe point. How the hell did the US let these militias grow and take over towns? I think it was because they were trying to placate the locals into not hating the US, when the plan the whole time was to fight the US. Sometimes, our Military is just too PC.
 

rhizome17

Fan Favourite
Originally posted by Elder
You have to also remember the al Quada letter claiming to want to stoke a civil war to create chaos. So far, it looks like it's working, and this bastard sheik is helping it right along.

Well, I am still uncertain on this one. I mean, there are examples of cooperation between Shia and Sunni over the last few days, but whether this is a case of fighting the common enemy first and then fighting each other, I don't know.
 

Elder

Starting XI
Originally posted by rhizome17
Well, I am still uncertain on this one. I mean, there are examples of cooperation between Shia and Sunni over the last few days, but whether this is a case of fighting the common enemy first and then fighting each other, I don't know.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend...

I need to start reading up on Middle Eastern history. I have read enough about Europe to drive me crazy, and need to figure out why the Middle East is the way it is. At times it seems they are really stuck in the past and can't get past petty religous differences. But I guess "petty" to me is quite something else to them.

Being religous, you think they would come together for the common good of the people, and that's what i can't figure out about these folks. It's fighting fighting fighting all the time.
 

JTNY

Starting XI
Well. A year on, it does not seem that the war is over. Sure, Saddam is gone, but that not is the issue any longer. Without bringing back to life the argument about the justification of the Iraqi incursion, the occupying forces are in a dilly of a pickle (phrase stolen from the Simpsons).

Anyhow, Iraq is an area of instability. You know what I think is going to happen? Nothing, well nothing of note. In 25 years time when U.S. troops (well most of them) have headed back home (hopefully not in body bags) Iraq will still be just as a desolate place (standard of living wise anyway). Ever since the induction of the sanctions, large sections of the Iraqi middle class entered the impoverished classes. These people are not happy. Whether or not this is the U.S. and other countries fault (so as not to re-direct the topic) they are there now and have to deal with it. It is most likely this will not properly be dealt with and this area will continue to stink of instability, wretched conditions and human suffering.

Another place screwed over by centuries, well at least decades of sovereign interests, colonial or corporate.
 

Elder

Starting XI
Originally posted by JTNY
Well. A year on, it does not seem that the war is over. Sure, Saddam is gone, but that not is the issue any longer. Without bringing back to life the argument about the justification of the Iraqi incursion, the occupying forces are in a dilly of a pickle (phrase stolen from the Simpsons).

Anyhow, Iraq is an area of instability. You know what I think is going to happen? Nothing, well nothing of note. In 25 years time when U.S. troops (well most of them) have headed back home (hopefully not in body bags) Iraq will still be just as a desolate place (standard of living wise anyway). Ever since the induction of the sanctions, large sections of the Iraqi middle class entered the impoverished classes. These people are not happy. Whether or not this is the U.S. and other countries fault (so as not to re-direct the topic) they are there now and have to deal with it. It is most likely this will not properly be dealt with and this area will continue to stink of instability, wretched conditions and human suffering.

Another place screwed over by centuries, well at least decades of sovereign interests, colonial or corporate.

You really need to not be so pessemistic. Iraq in 25 years might be a stable, economically powerful country with culture that is thriving once again.

Who knows, but judging everything after just one year is silly.
 

JTNY

Starting XI
Originally posted by Elder
You really need to not be so pessemistic. Iraq in 25 years might be a stable, economically powerful country with culture that is thriving once again.

Who knows, but judging everything after just one year is silly.

Really? I am ging on more than a year, but the entire last century of Iraq, from colonial times to the 50s, to pre-Saddam, to Saddam's time and now.

War does not equal peace. The Iraqis don't seem too pleased about the foreign invaders. I mean, that mutilation that happened last week - not the acts of happy people. Sure you might say that happens now, but for that sentiment to be present, it does not just go away.
 

Elder

Starting XI
Originally posted by JTNY
Really? I am ging on more than a year, but the entire last century of Iraq, from colonial times to the 50s, to pre-Saddam, to Saddam's time and now.

War does not equal peace. The Iraqis don't seem too pleased about the foreign invaders. I mean, that mutilation that happened last week - not the acts of happy people. Sure you might say that happens now, but for that sentiment to be present, it does not just go away.

I just think they are sick f***s. But you are right about the last 50 years. it's time that something good happens for them... if they just calm down and let it...
 

Moron

Fast Breeder
Life Ban
"There may also be an ominous synergy developing between Sunni and Shiite insurgents. On Monday, insurgents fought a gun battle against United States troops in a Sunni neighborhood near Khadamiya in which three soldiers were killed. Witnesses said the attackers included a mix of Shiites and Sunnis. "There were Shiites from Sadr City and mujahedeen from Falluja," a hotbed of Sunni resistance, said Ayad Karim, a shopkeeper. "Now the resistance is united."
New York Times Really a good article...it appears to have become a real popular uprising, wider than any one organization, at least in that neighborhood. In any case, I think we'll see a lot less religious-sectarian division and violence in Iraq for a while, and the prospect of civil war now seems unlikely. Maybe Bremer should get a Nobel Peace Prize for that?

Also:link The American dream to bridge ancient Iraqi sectarian rivalries turned nightmarish Tuesday (UPI)...I guess Bush really is a uniter, not a divider!

How did this happen? Well, the occupiers have been stonewalling Shi'a demands for elections for some time. Then, on Sunday, March 28, they shut down a newspaper associated with Muqtada al-Sadr and his "Mahdi's Army": link They said it was inciting violence, which is just plain false; NOW Sadr is inciting violence, and you can see how different things look. And they said it was spreading false rumors; pot, meet kettle.

Al-Sadr began organizing massive, peaceful protest marches like this one. This went on for a week.

Then, on Saturday, the occupiers arrested one of Sadr's aides, on a warrant that was apparently issued months ago. From the timing, it's clear the motivation was political.

On Sunday, the demonstrations grew bigger and angrier. At least 20 protesters were shot down in Najaf, along with 4 Salvadoran soldiers. According to an AFP correspondent on the scene, the fighting began when soldiers shot at stone-throwers. But the "coalition" claims the "Mahdi's Army" fired first, and we all know of the Salvadoran army's legendary respect for human rights, including the right to assemble and protest, so I'm sure that's true.http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/04/...1017035856.html Also on Sunday, 47 demonstrators were shot in Baghdad by (U.S.-commanded) Iraqi police or soldiers, according to the guardian . Again, it's disputed who fired first. The Guardian article's also interesting for its analysis of why Bremer might be seeking to deliberately provoke armed confrontation in southern Iraq.

In response, Moqtada al-Sadr issued a statement: "I fear for you, for no benefit will come from demonstrations. Your enemy loves terrorism, and despises peoples, and all Arabs, and muzzles opinions. I beg you not to resort to demonstrations, for they have become nothing but burned paper. It is necessary to resort to other measures, which you take in your own provinces. As for me, I am with you, and I hope I will be able to join you and then we shall ascend into exalted heavens. I will go into an inviolable retreat in Kufa. Help me by whatever you are pleased to do in your provinces."

This was widely misinterpreted by pundits and reporters; some even thought he was backing away from confrontation by calling off the demonstration. Obvious now that ain't the case, huh? So lemme just say how I read it: "there's no point in holding peaceful demonstrations when that just gets you mowed down by automatic weapons. It's time to resort to other means."

Clearly the Shi'a uprising was provoked by Bremer, deliberately or otherwise. "Suppressing your newspaper ain't enough to make you resort to force? Then I'll just start arresting your leaders, one by one." And it might well be deliberate: Washington's greatest strength is brute force, and it might well be to Washington's advantage to move things into that arena.

link This AP article even argues this may be a good idea. But then, its author assumes that the "Mahdi Army" will be isolated, not only from other Shi'a organizations, but from the Shi'a population. On that, Bremer seems to have miscalculated...but it's in the nature of imperialism to underestimate the oppressed.link

:kader:
 

rhizome17

Fan Favourite
US tactics condemned by British officers
By Sean Rayment, Defence Correspondent
(Filed: 11/04/2004)


Senior British commanders have condemned American military tactics in Iraq as heavy-handed and disproportionate.

One senior Army officer told The Telegraph that America's aggressive methods were causing friction among allied commanders and that there was a growing sense of "unease and frustration" among the British high command.

The officer, who agreed to the interview on the condition of anonymity, said that part of the problem was that American troops viewed Iraqis as untermenschen - the Nazi expression for "sub-humans".

Speaking from his base in southern Iraq, the officer said: "My view and the view of the British chain of command is that the Americans' use of violence is not proportionate and is over-responsive to the threat they are facing. They don't see the Iraqi people the way we see them. They view them as untermenschen. They are not concerned about the Iraqi loss of life in the way the British are. Their attitude towards the Iraqis is tragic, it's awful.

"The US troops view things in very simplistic terms. It seems hard for them to reconcile subtleties between who supports what and who doesn't in Iraq. It's easier for their soldiers to group all Iraqis as the bad guys. As far as they are concerned Iraq is bandit country and everybody is out to kill them."

The phrase untermenschen - literally "under-people" - was brought to prominence by Adolf Hitler in his book Mein Kampf, published in 1925. He used the term to describe those he regarded as racially inferior: Jews, Slaves and gipsies.

Although no formal complaints have as yet been made to their American counterparts, the officer said the British Government was aware of its commanders' "concerns and fears".

The officer explained that, under British military rules of war, British troops would never be given clearance to carry out attacks similar to those being conducted by the US military, in which helicopter gunships have been used to fire on targets in urban areas.

British rules of engagement only allow troops to open fire when attacked, using the minimum force necessary and only at identified targets.

The American approach was markedly different: "When US troops are attacked with mortars in Baghdad, they use mortar-locating radar to find the firing point and then attack the general area with artillery, even though the area they are attacking may be in the middle of a densely populated residential area.

"They may well kill the terrorists in the barrage but they will also kill and maim innocent civilians. That has been their response on a number of occasions. It is trite, but American troops do shoot first and ask questions later. They are very concerned about taking casualties and have even trained their guns on British troops, which has led to some confrontations between soldiers.

"The British response in Iraq has been much softer. During and after the war the British set about trying to win the confidence of the local population. There have been problems, it hasn't been easy but on the whole it was succeeding."

The officer believed that America had now lost the military initiative in Iraq, and it could only be regained with carefully planned, precision attacks against the "terrorists".

"The US will have to abandon the sledgehammer-to-crack-a-nut approach - it has failed," he said. "They need to stop viewing every Iraqi, every Arab as the enemy and attempt to win the hearts and minds of the people.

"Our objective is to create a stable, democratic and safe Iraq. That's achievable but not in the short term. It is going to take up to 10 years."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/04/11/wtact11.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/04/11/
 

Elder

Starting XI
Originally posted by Thelonious
Its like Vietnam all over

That's uh... really stupid. We have another 66,000 thousand American lives to go, and more than a million Iraqi's to go before it gets to Vietnam levels.

For those who argue that it is like another Vietnam, go read your history books.
 

Elder

Starting XI
Originally posted by rhizome17
US tactics condemned by British officers
By Sean Rayment, Defence Correspondent
(Filed: 11/04/2004)




http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/04/11/wtact11.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/04/11/

First of all, "anonymous source." I already have doubts. There are too many of these "anonymous sources" in the news nowadays. And with how many stories are being fabricated.. who knows.

Second, the British are not the ones being attacked on a daily basis. The untermenschen part is interesting... I can't say I disagree when I see people burning bodies, 10 year olds standing on their charred heads, and then stringing them up on a bridge... Those people are sub human to me. And when I see a picture of this Sheik Sadr or whatever his name is, I can't think of him as a human either. He will be dead soon.

As for the peaceful Iraqi's, which is probably 98 percent of them. They should stand up to these bastards once and for all.
 

Thelonious

Senior Squad
I meant it was like Vietnam in , that the war is completely pointless and that America is not going to achieve anything by staying there. There is also the high civilain death toll. America has only been there for 1 year , there are many more deaths to come.
 

zul-aid

Starting XI
Originally posted by hanek45
Vietnam was so much worse and bigger scandal..


Actually their are more scandals and far more protestors then vietnam, the only difference is the propaganda on both sides has increased.

There wasnt any mass media back then, compared to now. Case example their wasnt 24 hour cable news, newspapers werent owned by mass companies (orginating from a little company in Adelaide called News Limited) etc etc etc...

The other side didnt have the interent or other underground methods or the Michael Moores, Norm Chomskys of this world.

Probably everyone here wasnt alive when Vietnam war was on, but from what is being released from both sides this is much worse, people werent being kidnapped left right and centre last count 40 odd "tourists on duty" have now gone missing.

Yeah the casualty list from the Vietnam war maybe higher, that doesnt mean it was worse (example Sept 11th).
 

Elder

Starting XI
Originally posted by zul-aid


There wasnt any mass media back then, compared to now. Case example their wasnt 24 hour cable news, newspapers werent owned by mass companies (orginating from a little company in Adelaide called News Limited) etc etc etc...





24 hour news isn't very influencial... Maybe a few million people per day out of 300 million watch it in this country. And I think that people in the 60's were much more aware of the news and what was going on in the world. Now we have American Idol and **** like that to watch.
 

rhizome17

Fan Favourite
Iraqi 'beaten to death' by US troops
April 14, 2004


AN Iraqi has died of his wounds after US troops beat him with truncheons because he refused to remove a picture of wanted Shiite Muslim leader Moqtada Sadr from his car, police said today.

The motorist was stopped late yesterday by US troops conducting search operations on a street in the centre of the central city of Kut, Lieutenant Mohamad Abdel Abbas said.

After the man refused to remove Sadr's picture from his car, the soldiers forced him out of the vehicle and started beating him with truncheons, he said.

US troops also detained from the same area five men wearing black pants and shirts, the usual attire of Sadr's Mehdi Army militiamen and followers.

Qassem Hassan, the director of Kut general hospital, identified the man as Salem Hassan, a resident of a Kut suburb.

He said the man had died of wounds sustained in the beating.

A spokesman for the US-led coalition could not confirm the incident.

http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,9282016%5E2,00.html

---------------------------------------------------------

untermenschen, anyone?
 


Top