Roots of the English National Team's woes

Discussion in 'Soccer Forum' started by ZamundaMan, Nov 26, 2007.

  1. ZamundaMan

    ZamundaMan Reserve Team

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    This is an article I found in the Economist, pretty much hits the nail right on the head regarding England's national team failures.

    http://economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10186049

     
  2. VanTheMin

    VanTheMin Red Card - Life Life Ban

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    makes lots of sense..although i just read the first two n last two lines :crazyboy:
     
  3. KingPaulV

    KingPaulV Starting XI

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    very good article, i seem to agree althought I am not familiar with British Youth programs, I am familiar with their underachieving consistently
     
  4. night

    night Starting XI

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    Very good article indeed. I think the English fans and the media think too highly of the English NT. They're one of the better sides but they are quite behind the greats like Brazil, Argentina, France, Italy, etc.. Therefore, it shouldn't be considered as a "shock" when England doesn't make it to a major tournament, just a disappointment..
     
  5. Sevillista

    Sevillista Starting XI

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    Agreed
     
  6. Callum

    Callum Youth Team Red Card

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    Spanish national team has had so much success in its history.
     
  7. Filipower

    Filipower Bunburyist

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    tou-muthufucking-che.
     
  8. adedawson

    adedawson Senior Squad

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    too sum up

     
  9. snoppf1

    snoppf1 Senior Squad

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    i agree with the coaching, but i disagree with that talent bull****

    englands under 17 football squad reached the europeian final for under 17's, beaten by spain to the title (who cares, spain will always fail when it comes to big competitions ill explain why later)

    they also reached the quarter finals for the world tournamet for that age, narroly beaten by germany

    i see the players who are signed up to academies, there good, really good, just aren't given the time to break into the first team, lose ambition and will proberly end up playing in the championship for the rest of their careers

    not only that, some players who aren't signed up are still good, i mean if you went to see a school team play with 2 or 3 player that had signed up to academys you would have a hard time picking who those 2 players are sometimes, i say this because the way players are scouted isan't right imo

    i spend a lot of last summer working on ball technique, all on my own i learn't how to play the hard way (no coaches at all, just practice)

    there is plenty of talent in england, they need the room to breakthough and develop whilst in the first team thats all
     
  10. Help?

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    Absolutely 100% Disagree. England players don't have talent? You gotta be completely ignorant of football to say that. Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard, Terry, Ferdinand, Neville, Beckham, M. Owen are not among the world's best? You are having a laugh. Nice move by the media, scapegoat the lack of talent. The real problem IS the Media and all the pressure they put on the manager, which in turn puts pressure on the FA and the FA are like media's puppies or in a business world, a board of directors that has the media as shareholders. The media is the one scaring away the actual good coaches, they are the ones expecting a perfect performance from the not so good coaches, they are the ones making players thing that they are ******* amazing and they are the ones that try to make England dillusional about their chances. Lets face it, they got talent as much if not more than France, Italy, Germany or Spain, but the crap mentality created by the media and their lack of team cohesiveness, again created by the media views, really kills it. The last thing England lack is talent.
     
  11. Sevillista

    Sevillista Starting XI

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    Looks like somebody only read the first lines before going on a rant.
     
  12. Help?

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    No i read everything. And what the article is saying is that the talent pool in England is dropping. Which might be somewhat true, but use that as a problem for England's failure to qualify for EURO 2008? Common, that's just stupid. England's youth system has absolutely no relevance to the state of the current national team. The fact that more and more foreigners were suceeding in England has been known for over 10 years, yet England still has Gerrard, Lampard, Terry, Ferdinand, Rooney, Owen, Carrick, SWP etc. The talent of these guys is undeniable, so what does the youth system have to do with the bad mentality of those players during their International games?


    The article is just so far-fetched, trying to blame the change in the way youth players are trained. Yeah, kids don't play that much soccer in the streets of England anymore. What do they think this didn't happen in other countries like Italy, Spain, Holland etc.? And do they think that kids actually play MORE football in the streets now than before in the smaller nations like Greece, Macedonia, Ukraine, Russia, that have improved on the international stage lately? The problem is the coach and the mental focus of the players, this has nothing to do with the youth.
     
  13. Help?

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    Besides, i wouldn't call the reign under SGE as an underachiving one. Losing 2-1 to the World Champions in 2002 to a small mistake in a game that could have easily went the other way and then losing to the host and the finalist of EURO 2004 because of the referee mistake (Sol's goal), when again they should have won, is hardly underachiving. Yeah they didn't win, but atleast they gave the toughest test to Brazil and i guess second toughest to Portugal.
     
  14. Callum

    Callum Youth Team Red Card

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    Sevillista just hates everything english, dont listen to that idiot.
     
  15. Zakov

    Zakov Senior Squad

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    i think the main problem is that not many English players can get into the 11st eleven of the premier league's top sides, look at Arsenal for example, only Theo Walcott is capable of breaking thru that side, but he's always limited to the subs bench......i agree that foreign players will help the development of home-grown talent but whats the point if they aren't playing on a frequent basis?
    I thought we really looked back in the 1998 WC, we need players like Ince, Adams,...
     
  16. TOON ARMY

    TOON ARMY Starting XI

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    We do HAVE good players

    However

    They lack the required technical ailibty.

    That come down to grass roots football. Kids on the continent work tirelesly on technique and learning of the game. In England we have an obbession of putting kids into a competative enviroment at far too early an age.

    Result = Portugal, Brazil, etc churning out high rates of very talented youths. We produce plenty of youths in this country but only few make the grade and go on to the highest level. Why? Youth coaching in England is woefully ineduquate and very narrow minded.

    Change it now and we might have a decent crop of technically gifted players come through eventually.
     
  17. ZamundaMan

    ZamundaMan Reserve Team

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    Amen to that, for too long England's football has revolved around kick and run. And its not even smooth one touch passing, just ugly long balls lobbed forward for the strikers to eat. Whether Gerrard or Lampard, or Ince or Adams, its the same, kick the long ball let the striker run to it. Apart from SWP no one on the first 11 has the ability to do one- on-one's. This is a grassroots issue.

    Can you blame the top four for not wanting English players, or not letting them break through when an African or a Brazilian are just more skilled. For every 1 Gerrard, there are is an Essien, Mauntari, Makelele. For every Terry or Ferdinand there is a Vidic, Sagna, Gallas, for every SWP there is a Ronaldo, Robben, Nani, Van Persie, catch my drift. English players aren't as good as we make them out to be. Something needs to be done, and its not kicking out the foreigners, it's a grassroots issue of development.
     
  18. KingPaulV

    KingPaulV Starting XI

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    ^^
    Very good post...I agree. As I learned about football, and I learned about the style of play of different nations one thing always stood out; that English players play the long ball, play for the high lob, for the run ons and so forth....That is a very English quality, but perhaps in this modern day of football it is no longer a valid strategy....It wasnt too long ago that teams like Poland, Russia and even some of East Asian countries played the long ball as their only recourse, physicality over technicality...now the long ball plays a lesser percentage of their game and in return their results world wide have improved dramatically...I think there is a need for a fundamental change in English footballing mentality with an emphasis on developing technical ability over physicality...A change of identity I would guess...and it is a shame because IMO England is such a storied nation, with a lot to offer, with players of high quality, but that cannot bring it together at the national level
     
  19. KingPaulV

    KingPaulV Starting XI

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  20. MikeyM

    MikeyM Big Daddy

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    The simple and painful fact is that there are less English players in the Premiership because ... wait for it .... they...are....simply....not.....good......enough. Okay England does have some supremely gifted players like Rooney and Ferdinand and Terry and Gerrard etc.

    I pin the faliure on several factors;

    1: The 1966 effect. England has been dining out on this far off triumph for far too long - the survivors are wheeled out time and again and showered with adulation for a tournament largely forgotten by the rest of the world. The attitude should be not "We won the world cup in 1966" but "We've been absolutely pi$$ poor in every tournament for 41 years" Barring 1990, but that was the best we have been.

    2: England's players are never to blame. Everytime we nosedive out of a tournament (or fail to get there) the search for "He who is to blame" begins. 1986 - Maradonna, 1990 - Gazza, 1992 - Lineker, 1994 - Koeman, 1996 - Southgate, 1998 - Beckham, 2002 - Ronaldinho, 2004 - Beckham (again), 2006 - Cristiano Ronaldo. Never once can our media say - well we lost because we played a better side, or we made tactical errors. I agree in the case of 2007, Steve McLaren was woefully inequipped to do the job - but ultimately faliure rests at the feet of the players who wandered aimlessly around Wembley.
    Look at the logic, it's far easier to print Beckham/Ronaldo's face on a dartboard than face the truth that the England team is largely represented by pampered millionaires amongst which only two or three would happily give blood for the pride of our nation.

    3: The media/advertising influences the team. Take Brazil for example, every friendly they have they use the opportunity to try new players and ideas - even the Copa America last year featured debuts for Anderson and promotion of Wagner Love to main player status. Look at any England friendly and you can see the teamsheet in your head (barring injury) Robinson, Neville, Ferdinand, Terry, Cole, Beckham, Lampard, Gerrard, Cole, Rooney and Owen - every single time. Well I'm sorry but there are 60,000,000 who want to see England evolve and do well - yet the FA see the £60,000,000 that Nationwide and Nike and Umbro will titter about giving them if "heavens above" England actually play some young players instead of the "Superstars".

    And this leads to the situation that when one of the "Superstars" are injured for a big game, the likes of Scott Carson are baptised in a cauldron of pressure - and if they falter the consequences are dire - Little children will point and laugh at him in the street, and in all probability it'll be a long time before he plays for England again. Because "it was his fault" England lost. Except it wasn't.

    How the hell would you feel if the second taste you had of an England cap was in a game where if you made a mistake you'd be "directly responsible" for the total faliure of the team. What if, when England played a "meaningless friendly", Carson had been told "Go out and play son, it really doesn't matter too much if we lose this - so play with no pressure". Then maybe when the call comes for the big games, Scott Carson feels confident and relaxed and can play the game. "I've done this before" he could feel.

    4: England believe we have "A devine right" to be involved in these tournaments. We don't - we won't be there in Austria because ah, how do I put this? Ah yes "We played crap over nine or ten games and we don't deserve to be"
    Sometimes (as with the Croatia game) you sense the England players feel they just need to turn up because "We are Mighty England" and somehow Croatia will just roll over for us.
    As someone said, France failed to qualify for USA94 too, but while England were crying about "Koeman should have gone and the goal was offside etc" France's FA held a meeting and somehow came to the conclusion that it was their fault, and maybe we need to fix some things. And you know what?
    That's exactly what they did, and won France98 and Euro 2000 on the spin.

    Maybe there's a lesson there - all though the FA (appropriate that it stands for "F*ck All" - which curiously enough is exactly what England has won since 1966 (6) ) will obviously fail to learn it.
     
      

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