Violent conduct - or part of the game?

[MikeyM]

We all saw what happened to Rodrigo Possibon last night. I'll admit it was that incident that made me think about asking this point - I suspect we all ask the question when we see one of our own players almost crippled on a football pitch.

I would like to think that not one person on this board would ever intentionally attempt to seriously injure a fellow player. What happened last night was indefensible, what Roy Keane did to Haaland is indefensible.

There has been an increase of this kind of incident, but at the same time of course we witness horrific accidents too. I'm speaking of David Buust, Eduardo Da Silva - players who suffered horrific injuries from challenges that were poorly executed or mistimed. That's one thing.

But when a player has committed a tackle of the kind seen by Roy Keane on Haaland, Paul Bosvelt on Dennis Irwin in 1997, Guthrie in the Bolton game and on Rodrigo last night from that animal Pogatetz - that's quite another. When the intent clearly is to injure an opponent - surely that's when the authorities need to come down on these players.

I'm posting an extract from the Manchester United team forum - I simply felt that this was a wider issue than just Man Utd - or the Premiership. Unlike previous times - I've tried to think about this before I write - so simply I want to throw the floor open to you guys. This affects everyone who has ever laced up a pair of boots and crossed that white line.

What I find particularly wrong is that it is only when the superstars do anything like this that the really heavy artillery comes out. I want you to imagine that was Wayne Rooney attacking a fellow professional, or Cristiano Ronaldo nearly having his leg broken. You wouldn't be able to hear yourself think from the condemnation cries.

Is that right? Does a full international superstar's crime - or injury warrent more of a punishment than someone who had their legs broken in a horrific deliberate tackle in the Real Nintendo Spanish non league?

I like a "bit of aggression" in football, it's part of the game. But I also believe that every player has a right to be protected from deliberate serious injury being inflicted on them. There is a clear difference between a "mistimed lunge" and setting out to cause maximum injury.

I'll admit - I probably wouldn't be as upset and driven to write this if I hadn't known the guy, and perhaps there is an indication of the problems we face in this matter.

Here are the quotes.

Originally Posted by pede54
What "good" reason could anyone have for a tackle like that?

So is it OK for Man U players to act like thugs, but whenever anyone else does it then it's unacceptable? It's only luck that more players haven't recieved serious injuries when playing against your players.

I saw a Neville tackle on Ballack on Sunday that was just as bad as Pogatetz' tackle, and it was only pure luck that Ballack didn't have any broken bones after it.

Typical. Those who love to dish it out, just can't take it when they are on the recieving end.

You see - we use our own players as the example, It's football fan nature.

I replied:

There is simply no way to condone any assault of the kind Pogatetz carried out. He has a reputation for this kind of thing too. Neville's was a bad challenge but I don't think it was done with the pure intent that this seemed to be. Quite simply it was a sickening sight. Obviously the recipient needs a bit of luck in a tackle, Eduardo didn't get it, Possebon didn't but Ballack did. I don't think that the actual tackle Eduardo got was as bad (It just looked mistimed) - but unfortunately it's legacy was far worse - I don't think there was the same intent from Martin Taylor to injure Eduardo (even if of course he ended up breaking the guy's leg). By the same token you could say Patrice Evra was lucky to walk away from the lunge from Mickel last season. This has been going on for years - Look at Gazza's lunge at Gary Charles in the FA Cup Final of 1991.

As for the Roy Keane thing - I love the guy's aggressive style and I loved it when he'd give an opposing player a kick to let him know he was there - but the Haaland incident was totally reprehensible. There is a difference between giving someone a "bit of a kick" and trying to "do" them. Keane tried to "do" Haaland and he admitted as much - I will need serious convincing that Pogatetz didn't try to "do" Rodrigo as well.

If ever I injured a fellow player in a game - I'd never forgive myself. We're talking about people's quality of life here - and their ability to make a living. I would like to think that not one person on these boards would lunge "studs up" straight at a fellow player in the way Pogatetz did last night.

Accidents happen - of course they do. But to intentionally set out to injure or cripple an opponent is as unforgivable a crime as there is in football - this kind of thing needs to be addressed by the Authorities.


I know I'm gonna catch a load of heat over this - but if that had been Wayne Rooney belting Pogatetz - or if the recipient had been Ronaldo we wouldn't have heard the end of it.

We need to get away from this idea that only the superstars need to be protected and dealt with.

Everyone has the right to step onto that field and to be able to walk back off it after the game.

 

[Bobby]

I have to disagree, I do think Taylor's tackle on Eduardo was bad. I don't think Taylor intended to injure him, by all accounts Taylor comes off as a gentleman. But it was a terrible tackle.

There's more outrage when star players are taken out because it's seen by more people and therefore stirs more emotion.

My own chances to make it as a professional (and believe it or not, I was quite decent as a boy) were crushed by a tackle which damaged my ankle and still causes me discomfort to this day (a full eight years on) - I must add here that with my remaining strength, I did react in a way I'm ashamed of. So it's a subject that's close to my heart, and one I'd like to have an unbiased opinion on, but as you can understand I simply can't.

I do agree that every player, be they playing at the Parc de Princes, or a converted peach orchard in Savannah, Georgia, deserves the right to feel they're safe on the field. But sadly, someone is often going to try to be a hard man and win a reputation.

We'll never rid the game of it, but they could dole out harsher punishments for malicious tackles (one that's rarely mentioned is the one that broke Abou Diaby's ankle). Some will disagree, saying in softens the game, but there has to be a line in the sand.

 

[Zakov]

We should've had this thread years ago.

 

[MikeyM]

Sorry to hear that Bobby. But thanks for seeing my point. I agree there has to be some kind of lasting punishment for this. Perhaps they should bring in "suspended" sentences. For example depending on the type of offense a badly timed tackle could warrant a suspended sentence - with a lengthy ban for repeat offenders. And a worse tackle could get a long ban immediately.

 

[lucacalciatore]

I think they should bring in a kind of 'Probation'.
So if you commit a serious foul, you get Suspended, and then if you commit another within a certain period of time, you get Suspended for, lets say, 6 weeks.
It all depends on the offences.

 

[Kibe Kru]

It all depends on who is reviewing each tackle, too. For example, many in Brazil thought the challenge on Eduardo da Silva was malicious, and that Taylor should have been banned from football, while to me it was a mistimed challenge that meant no harm.

How does one judge intent on the pitch? How can one be sure of Pogatetz's intention?

 

[1966+2006]

Most people in foreign countries thought Taylor should have been banned for ages really. I think it's due to the fact that these people don't follow the league as much. I mean Taylor seems like a likeable lad to me since I watch the games every week but I mean who would know that outside of England?
Him regretting the tackle and therefore apologising seems more convincing.

 

[Zakov]

You can't tell whether he's a likeable lad just by watching the games, man.
Thats more like knowing what type of player he is.
Have u ever went and hung around him, like had a drink with him?

But is it fair for a likeable lad like Taylor to get away with it while another player is being punished for a similar kind of offence? They should be punished equally IMO.

Pogatetz is being branded an animal for his challenge and people seem to make out as if he's constantly going out injuring players, when its the first time any of us has ever heard of him injuring a person so badly.(correct me if I'm wrong)

It doesn't matter what kind of a player you are, one rush of blood to the head can do anything to yer. Even the nicest bloke in football can cause the deadliest injuries to another player when he's out of his brains for a split second.

The thing is, how do we punish people for these challenges, its been happening for years now. Some people defend their players by saying that they're midfielders/strikers and they don't know how to tackle, it was a late challenge, etc.

I think an 5-8 match ban and community service is reasonable IMO, but they have to look at the extent of the injury the victim suffers.

I can't think of a better example then Cech's head injury. Hunt who committed the tackle and caused that particular injury(cracked skull) got away scott free because almost everyone was defending him that it wasn't intentional(all mind readers apparently). And there wasn't much fuss afterwards, most people just forgot and carried on.
The injury left Cech wearing that rugby helmet probably for the rest of his career, and some people often took the piss out of him for his current appearance.

As for Possebon's injury, its good to hear that he's okay. Pogatetz has apologized and admitted that he was wrong to contest the red card in the first place. Of course, its horrible when a upcoming young player suffer these kinds of challenges. But what can you do about it, to prevent it during the game is almost impossible. its been happening for decades now and can be considered as the downside to the beautiful game.

The only debate is currently, how to deal with the players who committed them regardless intentional or not. Its the extent of punishment thats currently a problem. Its too inconsistent right now.

 

[MikeyM]

Great post Zakov. That's the trouble with this issue, it does need stronger sanctions but at the same time it is so hard to see intent in most cases. Pogatetz has done this before, I believe he was banned for a long time after such a tackle in his homeland.

 

[1966+2006]

I agree with you Zakov, and I think it was just a bad choice of words from my part.
I was just latching on to what was said about people making these challenges more often with apparent 'intent'.
Of course nobody wants to see a career threatening challenge anywhere in the game from any player.
I was really disgusted by the fact that Pogatetz contested the red card, but if he's apologised for it (anyone got link maybe) and sees that he was in the wrong then I think I can accept that and just hope that Possebon makes a speedy recovery.
But I would like to see a more severe penalty be introduced in the future for tackles like that from any player.

 

[coach]

First serious Tackle Causing Grave Injury - Gone for 5 Games
Second Serious Tackle - Gone for ten games
Third Tackle - Done for the Season

The footballer's character & fair-play record must also be considered when handing out punishment.

 

[Kibe Kru]

The footballer's character & fair-play record must also be considered when handing out punishment.

How exactly would a character be judged, and who would judge him? Would a player who donated 10 pounds to charity be considered to have a "better character" than one who didn't?

I understand where you're coming from, but I just can't see an objective way of judging it. If you ask around the forums what they think of, say, Maradona, opinions would vary greatly. So if he were the one who challenged Possebon, would his character help reduce or increase his ban?

 

[Help?]

All i can say is that we have come a long way from the tough tackling games of the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s.

 

[farmboy]

How exactly would a character be judged, and who would judge him? Would a player who donated 10 pounds to charity be considered to have a "better character" than one who didn't?

I understand where you're coming from, but I just can't see an objective way of judging it. If you ask around the forums what they think of, say, Maradona, opinions would vary greatly. So if he were the one who challenged Possebon, would his character help reduce or increase his ban?

disciplinary record (ie total yellow cards, etc.)? just an idea...

 

[Mus]

First serious Tackle Causing Grave Injury - Gone for 5 Games
Second Serious Tackle - Gone for ten games
Third Tackle - Done for the Season

That seems a bit soft imo.. Very easy to get banned

 

[Bobby]

Yea, I think suspended sentences is the way to go.