WC 2010 QF: Uruguay vs Ghana [P + R]

[Kibe Kru]

I'll leave Az to discuss the "cheater" issue, but I think the situation you've described here is markedly different to what the goal-line handball ... in one situation, the striker still has to put the ball into the net -- and while it would most likely happen, there is still the possibility that he could miss ... but with the goal-line deliberate handball block, there is absolutely no possibility that it wasn't heading into the net for a goal ... and I think that is an extremely significant difference! EDIT: but, under current rules, both situations result in the exact same punishments handed out, which is not OK by me ...

I've thought about it, and I have come to the conclusion that deliberate handballs on the goal-line should be given as a goal ... yellow card for the deliberate handball, as it would be if it were committed on any other part of the pitch ...

EDIT 2: the only analogy I can think of for this is the LBW rule in cricket ... but as a Brazilian, I don't expect you to know what that is (though I would be impressed) ...

I don't totally understand the LBW rule, but doesn't that always involve lots of controversy as well? Even with video replays (is it video replays? or that Hawk Eye thingy?) now being available and challenging ump's decisions?

Yes, it does seem to be unfair on Ghana, and I agree it's horrible to lose like that. Those, however, are the rules, and the player that broke them was punished accordingly. Giving refs the power to decide when a ball was definitely going in or not when a handball occurs would create lots of confusion as well. And to be totally honest, I still think he'd have handballed it if it were to be a goal.

It's not, however, the first time it happens. Phil Neville did it once, on a merseyside derby, and not much fuss was made because of it. He did get a 3 match suspension for it, if I remember correctly. Maybe Suarez could have got the same penalty?

 

[Pogba4Now]

I agree with Mandieta6. He doesn't deserve any praise at all for using rules against football to help his team. He should've been banned for 3+ games for deliberately handling the ball to avoid a goal. Its a serious offense.

Same goes with Maradonna's "hand of god". A different case but I hate when they consider him as a "Hero" for that. He doesn't deserve any praise at all for that goal.

 

[Xifio]

I don't totally understand the LBW rule, but doesn't that always involve lots of controversy as well? Even with video replays (is it video replays? or that Hawk Eye thingy?) now being available and challenging ump's decisions?

Yes, it does seem to be unfair on Ghana, and I agree it's horrible to lose like that. Those, however, are the rules, and the player that broke them was punished accordingly. Giving refs the power to decide when a ball was definitely going in or not when a handball occurs would create lots of confusion as well. And to be totally honest, I still think he'd have handballed it if it were to be a goal.

It's not, however, the first time it happens. Phil Neville did it once, on a merseyside derby, and not much fuss was made because of it. He did get a 3 match suspension for it, if I remember correctly. Maybe Suarez could have got the same penalty?

yeah, the LBW is controversial since it is a judgment call, because the stumps are a small target, and the batsmen is likely obscuring the stumps ... I think it would be a little more clear-cut that a goal-line handball stopped a goal-bound effort ... anyway, the analogy was supposed to equate the idea of punishing illegal blocking ...

but let us not let that analogy distract from the crux of my argument:

it has to do with the fact that the punishment must fit the crime ...

in the situation you described before, the goalkeeper denies the striker a goal-scoring opportunity (because, like I said, the striker could still miss) ... so, the keeper is sent off for illegally denying the striker a goal-scoring opportunity, and the team denied is given a goal-scoring opportunity through a penalty ...

but with the goal-line handball block, the player denies a goal ... note that it is not denying a a goal-scoring opportunity, but a goal! that is a BIG difference! unlike a goal-scoring opportunity being dependent on the striker finishing or not finishing his chance, there is absolutely no other possibility for a ball stopped on the goal-line other than going into the net ...

that is why I feel that the scenario you described resulting in the same punishment as a goal-line handball is not logical to me ...

Giving refs the power to decide when a ball was definitely going in or not when a handball occurs would create lots of confusion as well.

if it needs a goal-line ref to decide that, fine ... if it needs to be reviewed via video, fine ...

And to be totally honest, I still think he'd have handballed it if it were to be a goal.

fair enough ... and if a goal is to be given for it, I have no problem with it ...

It's not, however, the first time it happens. Phil Neville did it once, on a merseyside derby, and not much fuss was made because of it.

yeah, these incidents have happened before, but I don't remember any that occurred in a more significant moment, which is why it is being debated by me as much ... similar to why England are suddenly such proponents of goal-line technology ... if you wish to chastise me for not bringing it up before, I will accept it ... but let that not distract from the relevance of the discussion ...

He did get a 3 match suspension for it, if I remember correctly. Maybe Suarez could have got the same penalty?

I don't want a ban because I don't think that solves the problem ... if your team's survival is on the online, you take the 3-match punishment and still be lauded as a shameless hero for it ...

like I said in my last post, I'd want the goal given, and only a yellow card for the deliberate handball, because that is the punishment dished out for a deliberate handball committed on any other part of the pitch ...

 

[Kibe Kru]

yeah, the LBW is controversial since it is a judgment call, because the stumps are a small target, and the batsmen is likely obscuring the stumps ... I think it would be a little more clear-cut that a goal-line handball stopped a goal-bound effort ... anyway, the analogy was supposed to equate the idea of punishing illegal blocking ...

but let us not let that analogy distract from the crux of my argument:

I think it is necessary to expand my explanation to why I suggested the rule change ... it has to do with the fact that the punishment must fit the crime ...

in the situation you described above, the goalkeeper denies the striker a goal-scoring opportunity (because, like I said, the striker could still miss) ... so, the keeper is sent off for illegally denying the striker a goal-scoring opportunity, and the team denied is given a goal-scoring opportunity through a penalty ...

but with the goal-line handball block, the player denies a goal ... not it is not denying a a goal-scoring opportunity, but a goal! that is a BIG difference! unlike a goal-scoring opportunity being dependent on the striker finishing or not finishing his chance, there is absolutely no other possibility for a ball stopped on the goal-line other than going into the net ...

that is why I feel that the scenario you described resulting in the same punishment as a goal-line handball is not logical to me ...

The scenario I described would involve no further action from the striker, the ball would continue its flight into the net (though of course it wasn't clear, for which I apologize). Would it still be denying a goal scoring opportunity, or a goal?

I agree on it being unfair, I'm just saying most people would do that, at least here in Brazil. When I play football, I play by the rules. You won't see me faking an injury to have someone else sent off (but you'll see lots of Brazilians doing this), but if I have to stop the play with a foul, I'll do it. If the ref sees fit to card me or send me off, I'll accept it. It's still better than letting them score, just like it was for Suarez to stop it with his hand. If/When the rules change, maybe I'll reconsider the way I play football, and maybe Suarez will as well...

I disagree with him being a hero to be worshipped, just as I disagree with him being the scum of the earth.

 

[ArgVega]

Where do you draw the line?

A handball 1m away, a hanball 2m away. A goalie takes a player out on a 1 on 1.

What defines a handball penalty then, a hanball in the box, but if its in the six yard box its a goal?


Uruguay fans are the only ones praising him, but hey what do you expect they are in the semis of the world cup, you would be pretty happy too. Not saying you would support it, but you would be happy your team is the semis.

 

[Xifio]

The scenario I described would involve no further action from the striker, the ball would continue its flight into the net (though of course it wasn't clear, for which I apologize). Would it still be denying a goal scoring opportunity, or a goal?

I see ... well, if the striker lobbed him, and the ball ends up in the net, then him being taken down would be secondary to the ball ending up in the net (advantage rule), in which case the goal would/should be given ...

I agree on it being unfair, I'm just saying most people would do that, at least here in Brazil. When I play football, I play by the rules. You won't see me faking an injury to have someone else sent off (but you'll see lots of Brazilians doing this), but if I have to stop the play with a foul, I'll do it. If the ref sees fit to card me or send me off, I'll accept it. It's still better than letting them score, just like it was for Suarez to stop it with his hand. If/When the rules change, maybe I'll reconsider the way I play football, and maybe Suarez will as well...

I'm questioning the very logic of the rules ... the punishment doesn't fit the crime ... a denied goal-scoring opportunity begets a goal-scoring opportunity through a penalty ... a denied goal cannot beget the same punishment; it does not equate ... I won't deny it is not without its own complications or repurcussions, but I think a goal-line handball block is a situation that warrants specifically-considered laws about awarding a goal ...

I disagree with him being a hero to be worshipped, just as I disagree with him being the scum of the earth.

agreed ... my disgust is only with his and his nation's shameless pride at celebrating what is apparently the new hand of god ... it is understandable what he did, but definitely not something to be proud of, nor, as you say, a reason to hero-worship someone ...



EDIT:

What defines a handball penalty then, a hanball in the box, but if its in the six yard box its a goal?

one that is not blocking a goal-bound shot ... again, vagaries and semantics come into it ... special refs and/or video reviews to make a judgment call on unclear situations are fine by me ...

Where do you draw the line?

A handball 1m away, a hanball 2m away. A goalie takes a player out on a 1 on 1.

vagaries, as mentioned above ... definitely not going to deny the complexity ... but I wouldn't dismiss the need to explore the problem because of the complications ...

 

[Lean]

Suarez cant be compared to Henry. Henry truly tried to trick the referee, and he did it. Suarez, on the other hand, did a handball in order to prevent certain elimination in the quarter-finals of a World Cup, and he knew the referee would see it, as he did it blatantly. He took one for the team in that case. He put his tournament on the line, that's all.

Quite different from jumping with your arm and tapping it in like Maradona did in 1986. That's trying to be a smartass, and that's NOT what Suarez did. It's controversial I know, but we cant judge the guy. It's the WC ffs, and I would like to see what would you guys do in the same situation. Let the ball go in, in front of your eyes? Or giving your team a shot at staying alive? Remember, the incident occured on the dying moments of the match.

In the end of the day, the ones who feel cheated will complain, while the rest will praise him from sacrificing himself. He did something illegal, that's a fact, but as i've already said, nobody can judge the fella.

 

[pasion1]

don't pay any attention to any hater here mate.
I'm over the moon that so many people all over the world have overwhelmingly come out to support Suarez.

Read a great quote from on another forum : "There is one thing that the haters of Suarez have in common, they were all cheering for Ghana".

Tabarez basically shut the mouth of everyone with what he said. "A few weeks ago Ghana tied a key game because Harry Kewell stopped the ball before it went in. Ghana were perfectly happy with the penalty and scored. It's not our fault they missed".

This is completely different from the Henry or 86 Maradona moment. (Where there was basically 99.9% support for the losing team worldwide).

And don't even mind them. It's impossible for a successful team to have everyone's support. There will always be haters. But know that so many people around the world are over the moon.

I love how some people say: "I can't wait to see Uruguay get thrashed on tuesday. Karma". LOL Guys, Uruguay already won. A country with perhaps the greatest football history of 3 million has done more in the past than 97% of the world will ever do, and have done it again. Top 4 , you can't write that .

 

[Daniel David]

one that is not blocking a goal-bound shot ... again, vagaries and semantics come into it ... special refs and/or video reviews to make a judgment call on unclear situations are fine by me ...

vagaries, as mentioned above ... definitely not going to deny the complexity ... but I wouldn't dismiss the need to explore the problem because of the complications ...

These vagaries are what keeps me away from caring about video review and extra referees. Scoring opportunities in football are very rare when compared to most other sports, and too many things can go horribly wrong and create an "unfair" result. Going to great lengths to avoid a tiny fraction of these injustices while adding loads of complexity, and in all likelihood even more subjectivity, is not going to make a big difference.

 

[Jaboldinho]

Suarez cant be compared to Henry. Henry truly tried to trick the referee, and he did it. Suarez, on the other hand, did a handball in order to prevent certain elimination in the quarter-finals of a World Cup, and he knew the referee would see it, as he did it blatantly. He took one for the team in that case. He put his tournament on the line, that's all.

Quite different from jumping with your arm and tapping it in like Maradona did in 1986. That's trying to be a smartass, and that's NOT what Suarez did. It's controversial I know, but we cant judge the guy. It's the WC ffs, and I would like to see what would you guys do in the same situation. Let the ball go in, in front of your eyes? Or giving your team a shot at staying alive? Remember, the incident occured on the dying moments of the match.

In the end of the day, the ones who feel cheated will complain, while the rest will praise him from sacrificing himself. He did something illegal, that's a fact, but as i've already said, nobody can judge the fella.

This is basically it.

He shouldn't be praised nor hated on. He can't be called a cheater for breaking some basic football rules, no one else does. I'd like to think I'd have done the same thing to give my team a chance. Sure, it's cruel for the opposing team, but hey, that's the point in sports, you try to beat the other guy, which usually leads to some sort of a bad feeling for the losers. These feelings are why we love sports so much.

 

[ShiftyPowers]

As I said before, I would have 100% ABSOLUTELY used my hand to save that goal, and in the same position all of you would have done the same. To criticize Suarez is the absolute apex of hypocriticism.

EDIT: And I HATE Uruguay. I absolutely despise their whole bull**** about "we have 2 World Cup Titles" and "we are the most winning team in football history!!!!" because it's disingenuous at best. But the truth is if you're in Suarez's place the situation is clear, you have 2 choices

A) You are eliminated from the World Cup
You have a 82% chance of being eliminated from the World Cup


If any of you would seriously take A, I would not want you on my team.

 

[Payaah]

Suarez cant be compared to Henry. Henry truly tried to trick the referee, and he did it. Suarez, on the other hand, did a handball in order to prevent certain elimination in the quarter-finals of a World Cup, and he knew the referee would see it, as he did it blatantly. He took one for the team in that case. He put his tournament on the line, that's all.

Nah I disagree, I think both Henry and Suarez did the same thing. Only different is Suarez got punished. Henry on the other handballed to help France qualify for the WC. As for the ref seeing it or not, I dont think that matters cause on the field you can get away with anything sometimes. Look at Suarez right after the handball he tried to act like nothing happened. So there was a chance he could have gotten away with it like Henry.

Saying that I probably would have done the same thing but still cheating. But I certainly wouldnt brag about it afterward.

Suarez said: "Mine is the real 'Hand Of God'. I made the save of the tournament."

"Sometimes in training I play goalkeeper so it was worth it," the 23-year-old said.

"The celebration afterwards was impressive, but very quiet because nobody gave us a chance but, with courage, we move forward."

 

[Lean]

Well, they have done the same thing, indeed: handballing. Henry tried to trick the referee though, as he did it in a subtle way, whilst Suarez looked like a volleyball player out there, almost punching the ball out of pure desperation. In both cases, their team was going to be eliminated.

Henry's even before getting to the World Cup. Suarez's, on the other had, were playing the quarter-finals of the biggest sports event in the world and the stakes were higher (pretty mugh higher). I guess people arent used to the South American passion when it comes to football, so they think that the bragging of Suarez is something despiseful. In this matter, that's just passionate and understandable, given he left the field on tears after being sent off.

Like i've said, that's cheating, but in another level. What he probably thought is: "I can't let that ball go in". What Henry probably thought is: "A little hand touch here and i'll be able to control it, let's hope he (the ref) doesnt get to see it". That's how I view both cases, but that's controversial and we might not get to a conclusion here anyway. The main point here is: Suarez can't be judged for what he did. It was illegal, but it was last resort stuff, it was blatant and he knew what would happen to him the instant he did it, so...

 

[Zlatan]

I think in such a hectic moment, neither Henry nor Suarez think anything at all. It's just an instinctive reaction to try to achieve their goal, which is winning. That's what makes a top football player or any athlete for that matter, the extreme will to win.

 

[Lean]

That's a good point too. Suarez's moment was more hectic than Henry's though. Much more. And that's why I dont blame the guy.

 

[emmer]

As I said before, I would have 100% ABSOLUTELY used my hand to save that goal, and in the same position all of you would have done the same. To criticize Suarez is the absolute apex of hypocriticism.

EDIT: And I HATE Uruguay. I absolutely despise their whole bull**** about "we have 2 World Cup Titles" and "we are the most winning team in football history!!!!" because it's disingenuous at best. But the truth is if you're in Suarez's place the situation is clear, you have 2 choices

A) You are eliminated from the World Cup
You have a 82% chance of being eliminated from the World Cup


If any of you would seriously take A, I would not want you on my team.

I agree, except that I like Uruguay , even despising this history bull**** as well (I don’t know if it’s something most of the Uruguayan people agree with anyway).

I wanted Ghana to win, but Suárez made the right thing. And fortunately the referee saw it – I would be pissed off if he didn’t (I’m disappointed with the missed penalty kick, but that’s different).

 

[Galaxyman]

Suarez is not a cheater. In fact I admire him for what he did.

It was a phantom call, and Ghana did not deserve to win that way. In fact they had 2 golden chances to win (PK and the shootout) and blew it.
If anything I feel millions are losing respect for Ghana day by day because of their incessant whining. !
God I never thought Africans could be sooooo annoyyyiinng . Just give them a pacifier and baby bottle already.