WC 2010 [Stubborn] Managers Watch -- compromising the World Cup experience!

I have watched 4 World Cups in my life (3 of which I could genuinely follow), and I have never before felt so much antisetiment towards so many managers as the biggest tournament approaches ...


ITALY: my disgust with Lippi has been well-documented, even on these forums, so I won't harp on about it (look at the image below for one of the main points of my protests) ... if you want to know more, let me know, and I will be more than glad to fill you in ...



FRANCE: Domenech refuses to pick Italy-based players, including the world class Sébastien Frey and Philippe Mexès (and maybe even David Trezeguet) ... his reasons include astrology, and I would suggest idiocy as well ...


ARGENTINA: Diego Maradona has decided not to pick Pupi Zanetti and Cuchu Cambiasso ... not only should they be automatic selections, but Zanetti should be the prime candidate for captaincy ... and what's worse is that Burdisso is somehow selected -- that man is a disaster waiting to happen ... there is no rational logic to Maradona's selection on this matter; but should I really have expected rationality from "El Diego"?


BRAZIL: Dunga has jettisoned the traditional ginga for an ugly fast counterattacking style ... at times, some of the natural skills do squeak through into some of their play, but it is just not often enough ... almost every football fan has a Brasil jersey somewhere in their wardrobe because Brasil bring their sublime skills to the pitch on the big occasion, and play to entertain while winning as well (one without the other is pointless as far as I am concerned) ... they won the Confederations Cup, but never has a Brazilian triumph been hailed less around the World ... as a result of Dunga's deplorable change in tactics, players who would provide flair and colour, but aren't perfectly suited to quickly sprint from their defensive box to the other end to score a quick goal on the counter, are not going to feature ... Ronaldinho has been indirectly told that, no matter what he does for Milan, he won't go to the World Cup ... Pato won't get a start ... Ronaldo, even if he gets decently fit, will likely not get picked ... Dunga has his 23 set, and his starting XI sorted ... no amount of performance from now till May will change his mind ... and no amount of showing him classic footage of the great Brazilian teams will put him off his tactical preferences ... tragic ...


NETHERLANDS: I don't have too much against van Marwijk at the moment, though I was quite unimpressed with the team selection in the last friendly (check the Oranje thread for details) ... one man who is surely not going to be selected, and who I think would be invaluable to the team, is Clarence Seedorf ... he has had a resurgence of sorts at Milan, and his ability to read the game confirms the fact that he is an intellectual, on and off the pitch ... his experience would have come in handy ... this is the least of my "begrudgements" (compared to Italy, for example), but I definitely feel it warrants mentioning ... I also think that Van Nistelrooy should go to South Africa (to come off the bench as an impact substitute), but his case is unlike Seedorf's: you see, Ruud still has a chance because he is playing in Germany now, and that is a very good thing in van Marwijk's book ...


most of the players that I have mentioned who won't be in South Africa currently play in the Italian league ... that is no coincidence; I happen to follow calcio the most, so I will notice it more when players from there are not picked ... I'm still looking forward to the World Cup, but my World Cup experience will not be as good as it should have been ...

are there are any players you guys think will be undeserving left out, and will thus compromise your World Cup experience? any other managers who deserve a verbal flogging in this thread?

As far as I'm concerned there is ZERO debate for how Argentina should play. That is:


---------Tevez------Aguero----------
---------Higuain------Messi-----------
--------------------------------------
------Mascherano----Cambiasso-------

Look familiar? It's the Brazilian Box. Let those 4 just do whatever they want and have Mascherano and Cambiasso clean up the mess. The only other player who should crack that midfield is Maxi Rodriguez. When we start talking about Milito and ******* Juan Veron (!!!!!!!) we're beginning to understand why Maradona is such a spectacular failure.

Agreed on Lippi. I really can't watch this team anymore. The boring display against Cameroon was enough. What kind of coach leaves three of the best attacking talents(Balo, Cassano, and Miccoli) at home and gives automatic spots to bums like Gattuso, Pepe, and Camoranesi. An absolute disgrace. I hope Italy goes home early just so that old man's image gets tarnished. Bring on 2012 with a manager that doesn't play mind games and politics.

USA and Slovakia all the way in SA

ShiftyPowers;2832162 said:

As far as I'm concerned there is ZERO debate for how Argentina should play. That is:


---------Tevez------Aguero----------
---------Higuain------Messi-----------
--------------------------------------
------Mascherano----Cambiasso-------

Look familiar? It's the Brazilian Box. Let those 4 just do whatever they want and have Mascherano and Cambiasso clean up the mess. The only other player who should crack that midfield is Maxi Rodriguez. When we start talking about Milito and ******* Juan Veron (!!!!!!!) we're beginning to understand why Maradona is such a spectacular failure.

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4-2-4?? That's never gonna work in the modern game. Remove 1 of the strikers and replace him with a creative midfielder and the team would be perfect.

I resent Dunga most for imposing his conservative philosophy on what would be the most entertaining team in the world. He's robbing us of spectacle.

Nady;2832186 said:

4-2-4?? That's never gonna work in the modern game. Remove 1 of the strikers and replace him with a creative midfielder and the team would be perfect.

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Are Higuain, Messi, and Aguero not creative enough for you? Do you understand the reason for two holding midfielders? Aside from Tevez, those guys would not have set roles or traditional positions; they are all insanely creative and can play all over. It would be impossible for a defense to contain those 4, fullbacks could never get forward, and as a result their attack would suffer greatly against 6 world class defenders.

****, I don't know man, maybe no one has any imagination in coaching these days. Brazil seemed okay in 2006 using this formation, their problem was they had Kaka, Ronaldinho, and no one else. Argentina has 5 brilliant attacking players all in their prime.

And it's not like I'm suggesting an out and out 4-2-4, obviously the attackers would have to track back on defense.

I like the idea I don't know if it will work. It might work, but I feel its a too attacking formation and there will be a huge gap between the 4 offensive players and the 6 defensive players. For a team to operate effectively, there needs to be a good transition between defence, midfield and attack.

In that formation, the only midfielder who can pass is Cambiasso. Mascherano crap at passing. I think its crucial to have someone in the middle to dictate the play of the game and create plays for the 3 attackers. The problem is that I can't think of who can play this role. Riquelme would be perfect but has retired from the NT. Aimar or Maxi Rodriguez maybe?

Banega is a hell of a player, MUST be starter in that midfield.

--------romero-------
zabaleta-micho-milito-ansaldi
-------mascherano---------
---Banega------Perotti/Di maria
---------Messi-------------
----Higuain/Milito--Agüero/Tevez-

Argentina attack is awesome but they are fools and rather Palermo over Messi or Kun.

Nady;2832210 said:

I like the idea I don't know if it will work. It might work, but I feel its a too attacking formation and there will be a huge gap between the 4 offensive players and the 6 defensive players. For a team to operate effectively, there needs to be a good transition between defence, midfield and attack.

In that formation, the only midfielder who can pass is Cambiasso. Mascherano crap at passing. I think its crucial to have someone in the middle to dictate the play of the game and create plays for the 3 attackers. The problem is that I can't think of who can play this role. Riquelme would be perfect but has retired from the NT. Aimar or Maxi Rodriguez maybe?

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Well, like I said I'm a big fan of Maxi Rodriguez, so I would not mind seeing him along with Messi as the attacking midfielders with Tevez and Higuain as the forwards and Aguero as the super sub. Just remember, it's not a 4-2-4, it's more of a 4-4-2 but you have 2 extremely attacking oriented players and 2 extremely defensive oriented players.

Also I disagree that Mascherano is a poor passer. Banega is definitely a good player, he could be the backup for Cambiasso and Mascherano if one of them is tired or gets hurt.

I just don't understand why managers refuse to put the best talent on the field because it doesn't jive with their perception of tactics. If you can defend with 6 and get your most inspirational, brilliant players on the field you would do it, right? Well that's what the formation allows. In my opinion, and probably the opinion of most people, the two greatest teams ever were Brazil in 1970 and Holland in 1974. They put their best players on the field and built the tactics around the talent. Brazil in 1970 is regarded as extremely attack oriented, and they were with Pele, Jairzinho, Tostao, and Rivelino (not to mention Carlos Alberto bombing up the side), but they also used Clodoaldo and Gerson as defensive midfielders and in addition had a flat back 4. Those attackers had to be on the field, so they put them all out there and made sure it could work. Argentina needs to put their best players out there and then make sure it works by covering the defensive liability with extra defense (i.e. Mascherano and Cambiasso). As for Holland 1974... did they even have positions?

Your line up its like a funnel, madrid try it but don't work. Magic box never work, its very unbalanced.

Maxi is average.

PS: Holland 74 and Pele's brasil are totally diferent things, the netherlands invented the total football, wich mean anyplayer can make both, attack and defense, the CB and GK also play and the foward defense (they must) when a defense eventually join attack the closer midfield cover his place, they have positions and are the origins of the actual barça, Brazilian magic box its the inverse of the Mechanic Orange.

ShiftyPowers;2832216 said:

Well, like I said I'm a big fan of Maxi Rodriguez, so I would not mind seeing him along with Messi as the attacking midfielders with Tevez and Higuain as the forwards and Aguero as the super sub. Just remember, it's not a 4-2-4, it's more of a 4-4-2 but you have 2 extremely attacking oriented players and 2 extremely defensive oriented players.

Also I disagree that Mascherano is a poor passer. Banega is definitely a good player, he could be the backup for Cambiasso and Mascherano if one of them is tired or gets hurt.

I just don't understand why managers refuse to put the best talent on the field because it doesn't jive with their perception of tactics. If you can defend with 6 and get your most inspirational, brilliant players on the field you would do it, right? Well that's what the formation allows. In my opinion, and probably the opinion of most people, the two greatest teams ever were Brazil in 1970 and Holland in 1974. They put their best players on the field and built the tactics around the talent. Brazil in 1970 is regarded as extremely attack oriented, and they were with Pele, Jairzinho, Tostao, and Rivelino (not to mention Carlos Alberto bombing up the side), but they also used Clodoaldo and Gerson as defensive midfielders and in addition had a flat back 4. Those attackers had to be on the field, so they put them all out there and made sure it could work. Argentina needs to put their best players out there and then make sure it works by covering the defensive liability with extra defense (i.e. Mascherano and Cambiasso). As for Holland 1974... did they even have positions?

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I like that idea but football has changed now. You can no longer play with such a formation. However, I think it can be an excellent plan B when you need a goal in the dying minutes.

United played with a similar formation for a few games last season. Tevez, Ronaldo, Rooney and Berbatov playing up front with Carrick and Fletcher as DM. Didn't work really but was very effective as a plan B.

As for Argentina, I think 4-3-3 would be perfect for the players they have. Something like that:

----------------Higuain-------------
Tevez/Agu-------------------Messi--
------------------------------------
-------------Maxi/Aimar-------------
---------Masch---Cambiasso--------

Maxi is winger. and Banega underrated because isn't in epl.

Arnau;2832218 said:

Your line up its like a funnel, madrid try it but don't work. Magic box never work, its very unbalanced.

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Yeah I suppose. I still say it hasn't been tried with this kind of talent before.

Masch is an excellent passer of the ball, he just has no creativity. To maximise his eficiency, you'd want to have 2 creative mids operating around him so he can recover the ball and give it to them.

Arnau;2832218 said:

PS: Holland 74 and Pele's brasil are totally diferent things, the netherlands invented the total football, wich mean anyplayer can make both, attack and defense, the CB and GK also play and the foward defense (they must) when a defense eventually join attack the closer midfield cover his place, they have positions and are the origins of the actual barça, Brazilian magic box its the inverse of the Mechanic Orange.

Click to expand...

Trust me, I understand Clockwork Orange. If there is one thing I understand in this game it's Total Football.

I've read a TON and seen many old Ajax and Holland games/highlights on youtube and elsewhere, but if anyone knows of a good english documentary that is available online about the 1974 team, the Michaels/Kovacs Ajax teams, or Total Football in general, please let me know.

Dunga is stubborn, but not a bad coach. His record speaks for itself. I hope he doesnt call Ronaldinho

WilliamFAlmeida;2832456 said:

Dunga is stubborn, but not a bad coach. His record speaks for itself. I hope he doesnt call Ronaldinho

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Explain.

He's a bomb for the squad, i know what he mean because i lived before.

Arnau;2832580 said:

He's a bomb for the squad, i know what he mean because i lived before.

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You mean he can be disruptive to team harmony? Or he's a really good player "es un crack"?

RobbieD_PL;2832590 said:

You mean he can be disruptive to team harmony?

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Yes, and Dunga hate lazies though.