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Democratic Convention 2004
- Thread starter Vagegast
- Start date
ShiftyPowers
Make America Great Again
I was getting ready to make a joke about Osama bin Laden paying Jordan to play for the terrorists, I'm glad you made the joke for me. But come on, Jordan absolutely owned the Knicks. The foreign policy solutions also reminded me of old Scooby Doo episodes starring the Harlem Globetrotters.
I don't know why everyone is trashing Kerry to be honest. He's going to be tough on terrorism and strong on national defense, I think he's proven that. I think a Commander in Chief with actual military experience is probably a good idea and I don't know how the Reps could question his military resolve. He mentioned bringing the troops home and reforming alliances, so perhaps we won't break international law and invade a soverign nation without UN approval. He is going to pay for good programs for America, like head start, healthcare, veterans benefits, etc. by cutting the tax cuts for those who make over 200,000 a year, taking away the rediculous tax breaks on humongous capital gains, and closing corporate tax loopholes. Who is against this? Businesses will actually be responsible for their taxes to the government and the wealthiest people will still be wealthy! As a society can we possibly think that my GE capitol gains being tax free is more important than providing healthcare to veterans, the poor, and providing head start to youth who are at risk to go to jail? Why is the economy's progress more important than actual people! The economy is cylical and it will go up no matter what when it is ready. It can be helped along, but for the most part it does what it does.
The flip-flopping issue is just stupid and Kerry addressed it in his speech, he said that the right criticizes him for seeing complexities, and that every issue isn't so simple. That's exactly right. Who here is so arrogant that they can say they never change their mind about anything, they are always right the first time, that they consider every single side of every issue before taking an initial stand? That's why this administration seems to not care about the American people, because they can't admit they were wrong when they clearly are. I think it's a positive character trait to admit when you are wrong and this shouldn't be held against Kerry. 99 US Senators voted for the Patriot Act, 99 don't support it now. They read it, they realized what is in it; it's not bad to change positions.
Finally, I think Kerry came off as very sincere and like he genuinely cared. To me he was always a bit of a caricature, but he was just so genuine and caring in his speech; I believe that he won't lie to the public, I believe he will do what he believes is right; and I want that in a President. His history after the war comming in front of a Congressional Committee about the war and his history as a Prosecutor show that he has strong moral values.
And to conclude I think his bit about morality and values was gold. It was a complete dig against the religious right who believe there is only one set of values that everyone must share. Kerry said that we all have certain American morals and values that we share, regardless of religion that unite us; they don't set out to alienate and divide us.
And incidentally, he's campaiging just like Bush did in 2000, I'm waiting for him to say verbatim "I'm a uniter, not a divider"
xxxFLYERxxx
Starting XI
Originally posted by rhizome17
Nice one
Comparing botox and an older mans heart conditions?
Yea, really nice
I just saw the stupid girl or boy (couldnt really tell) speaking at the convention about Cheneys cursing. It was one of lamest things ive ever seen. If anything, it hurt my opinion of Kerry. Seriously, what the **** was that?
Yeah, because Kerry's alleged botox injections are so relevant... on the other hand, Cheney's heart problems are serious. He's had like six heart attacks and he he's pretty damn busy since George is always on vacation...Originally posted by xxxFLYERxxx
Comparing botox and an older mans heart conditions?
Yea, really nice
Originally posted by xxxFLYERxxx
Comparing botox and an older mans heart conditions?
Yea, really nice
I just saw the stupid girl or boy (couldnt really tell) speaking at the convention about Cheneys cursing. It was one of lamest things ive ever seen. If anything, it hurt my opinion of Kerry. Seriously, what the **** was that?
Was that the same girl who told the story about Kerry giving CPR to a hamster?
Yeah, he gets my vote now!!
Kerry Flip Flops... detailed, documented and quoted.
http://www.georgewbush.com/kerrymediacenter/read.aspx?ID=2439
And since that is from Bush Cheney, here is a liberal slant.
http://slate.msn.com/id/2096540/
More...
http://www.flipflopper.com/Flipflops.asp
and on and on and on.... if you think a person like this should be elected president of the US, justbecause you hate Bush so much, then you're screwed.
He's going to lose.
ShiftyPowers
Make America Great Again
1) You should have took the 2 minutes to read the comments underneath the slate article.
2) People change. A lot of the undocumented (although I won't dispute them) previous positions of Kerry were 10 or more years ago; not only has John Kerry changed a lot in 10 years, but America has changed a lot in 10 years. Situations change and I despise people who think that there is only one solution, and that solution is unchanging and unfallable. What I am concerned about are lies and deception, and I don't see anywhere in his record that he uses those tactics.
2) People change. A lot of the undocumented (although I won't dispute them) previous positions of Kerry were 10 or more years ago; not only has John Kerry changed a lot in 10 years, but America has changed a lot in 10 years. Situations change and I despise people who think that there is only one solution, and that solution is unchanging and unfallable. What I am concerned about are lies and deception, and I don't see anywhere in his record that he uses those tactics.
ShiftyPowers
Make America Great Again
Ok Mr. Elder, I've read the flipflopper site now, the conclusive and inarguable proof that Kerry "has no priciples"
Let's go issue by issue, point by point.
Fuel Standards:
He owns an SUV, but that doesn't change the fact that he's trying to get the standards changed; it's a bit weird, I'll give it that, but trying to solve a big problem is much more important than a couple of automobiles. Plus it's not flip-flopping on an issue, he's never stated he was against fuel standards for SUVs.
Anti-War:
He threw away his medals and now doesn't want to be seen as unpatriotic; it's a result of this culture we live in where no one wants to be seen as unpatriotic. Democrats in the senate are proposing selective service acts and voting for the Patriot Act so they seem like they aren't enemies, so they're "with us" and not "against us"
Force in Iraq:
He voted for the war in Iraq and felt it was right to disarm Saddam. Now he is against the war. Sounds like a flip-flop!! Nope. The Executive Branch provided false intelligence. There was nothing to disarm him of! So the premise of which he supported the war was false, small wonder why he doesn't support it now.
Marriage Penalty:
He is a proud champion of being against this issue and he broke from his beliefs to pass through NOT taking the penalty away. Of course the article doesn't seem to mention any other motives for what he did. It's just because he has no principles! No no no, it couldn't be because he was trying to balance the budget. Something like a balanced budget is much more important than a single issue to Republicans, why can't they realize this and lay off?
Patriot Act:
Everyone voted for it, no one read it. After 3 years we see what it can do to everyday citizens, not just actual terrorists, or even people reasonably suspected to be terrorists; it's not as good of an idea anymore. Plus people fail to realize the culture, this was a month after September 11th, we were scared, something had to be done and the Bush Administration provided a solution that on paper seemed great. Plus they don't mention that a lot of bills in the Senate get passed because the President wants it to be passed, regardless of politics.
Gulf War:
13 years ago...
Gay Marriage:
Personally I'm a radical outlandish thinker and actually believe gays should have the same civil rights the rest of us enjoy; I think he'll come around eventually, but if he doesn't it should show that he has conviction, eh!
Death Penalty for Terrorists:
September 11th changed the way we look at the world. The right never stops saying that, so perhaps on an issue dealing directly with terrorists we could cut him some slack?
No Child Left Behind Act:
Seemed good on paper, in effect it didn't work. Rich schools outperform poor schools because their children come from rich families who went to college and are therefore motivated to go to college themselves, plus rich school districts can hire better teachers; MEANING.........the rich schools get all the cash.
Affirmative Action:
The comments on the slate site show that Kerry never trashed Affirmative Action.
Ethanol:
For it 10 years ago, a lot has changed in the political climate between the US and oil producing nations, perhaps his attitude on gas in the US can change too?
Cuban Sanctions:
I don't see anything contradictory. He voted against stronger sanctions; I don't see anything saying that he is now for stronger sanctions, just that he is not going to rashly open up trade. No contradiction to be found there, oh, but he's just pandering to the cuban vote. Forget that most of the recent (meaning 80s and beyond) Cuban immigrants are not necessarily anti-Castro, the hardcore anti-Castro people were those who came over right when Castro came to power, and their numbers now are shrinking every day in proportion to the rest of the Cuban Americans.
NAFTA:
Kerry voted for it 11 years ago, but now says he would vote against it. OH NO!! Oh, well he would vote against it because it doesn't provide labor or environmental standards, not because he is against it per-se. Now, he has come out recently as protectionist a little, but I think it's more of seeing the decimation of the blue collar workforce in America. The rust belt is pretty much the 40% unemployment belt now, and trying to help that before increasing free trade is fine. Priorities!
These sites are just so partisan it's crazy, and your "liberal slant" is not liberal at all, not in any way. Why is it liberal? Because the writer is from Boston? It's pushing a larger agenda, and I can't believe you don't see that!
Oh, and forgive me for not going to George W. Bush's re-election website, but I think I'd vomit upon entry. You see, he is to me what Hilary Clinton is to you. Only I actually gave Bush a change. Douchebag.
Let's go issue by issue, point by point.
Fuel Standards:
He owns an SUV, but that doesn't change the fact that he's trying to get the standards changed; it's a bit weird, I'll give it that, but trying to solve a big problem is much more important than a couple of automobiles. Plus it's not flip-flopping on an issue, he's never stated he was against fuel standards for SUVs.
Anti-War:
He threw away his medals and now doesn't want to be seen as unpatriotic; it's a result of this culture we live in where no one wants to be seen as unpatriotic. Democrats in the senate are proposing selective service acts and voting for the Patriot Act so they seem like they aren't enemies, so they're "with us" and not "against us"
Force in Iraq:
He voted for the war in Iraq and felt it was right to disarm Saddam. Now he is against the war. Sounds like a flip-flop!! Nope. The Executive Branch provided false intelligence. There was nothing to disarm him of! So the premise of which he supported the war was false, small wonder why he doesn't support it now.
Marriage Penalty:
He is a proud champion of being against this issue and he broke from his beliefs to pass through NOT taking the penalty away. Of course the article doesn't seem to mention any other motives for what he did. It's just because he has no principles! No no no, it couldn't be because he was trying to balance the budget. Something like a balanced budget is much more important than a single issue to Republicans, why can't they realize this and lay off?
Patriot Act:
Everyone voted for it, no one read it. After 3 years we see what it can do to everyday citizens, not just actual terrorists, or even people reasonably suspected to be terrorists; it's not as good of an idea anymore. Plus people fail to realize the culture, this was a month after September 11th, we were scared, something had to be done and the Bush Administration provided a solution that on paper seemed great. Plus they don't mention that a lot of bills in the Senate get passed because the President wants it to be passed, regardless of politics.
Gulf War:
13 years ago...
Gay Marriage:
Personally I'm a radical outlandish thinker and actually believe gays should have the same civil rights the rest of us enjoy; I think he'll come around eventually, but if he doesn't it should show that he has conviction, eh!
Death Penalty for Terrorists:
September 11th changed the way we look at the world. The right never stops saying that, so perhaps on an issue dealing directly with terrorists we could cut him some slack?
No Child Left Behind Act:
Seemed good on paper, in effect it didn't work. Rich schools outperform poor schools because their children come from rich families who went to college and are therefore motivated to go to college themselves, plus rich school districts can hire better teachers; MEANING.........the rich schools get all the cash.
Affirmative Action:
The comments on the slate site show that Kerry never trashed Affirmative Action.
Ethanol:
For it 10 years ago, a lot has changed in the political climate between the US and oil producing nations, perhaps his attitude on gas in the US can change too?
Cuban Sanctions:
I don't see anything contradictory. He voted against stronger sanctions; I don't see anything saying that he is now for stronger sanctions, just that he is not going to rashly open up trade. No contradiction to be found there, oh, but he's just pandering to the cuban vote. Forget that most of the recent (meaning 80s and beyond) Cuban immigrants are not necessarily anti-Castro, the hardcore anti-Castro people were those who came over right when Castro came to power, and their numbers now are shrinking every day in proportion to the rest of the Cuban Americans.
NAFTA:
Kerry voted for it 11 years ago, but now says he would vote against it. OH NO!! Oh, well he would vote against it because it doesn't provide labor or environmental standards, not because he is against it per-se. Now, he has come out recently as protectionist a little, but I think it's more of seeing the decimation of the blue collar workforce in America. The rust belt is pretty much the 40% unemployment belt now, and trying to help that before increasing free trade is fine. Priorities!
These sites are just so partisan it's crazy, and your "liberal slant" is not liberal at all, not in any way. Why is it liberal? Because the writer is from Boston? It's pushing a larger agenda, and I can't believe you don't see that!
Oh, and forgive me for not going to George W. Bush's re-election website, but I think I'd vomit upon entry. You see, he is to me what Hilary Clinton is to you. Only I actually gave Bush a change. Douchebag.
mhflierman
Starting XI
I'm from the Netherlands and I have a more than average interest in (world) politics. I've just been to Farenheit 9/11 and I've followed the Democratic Convention pretty closely.
I must say American politics are a pathetic joke. How can you possibly call that "applauding machine" a political convention. Nothing political has been said. Don't get me wrong, if I were American I'd vote for the democrats, but basically you guys are ****ed with a two party system, let alone the election system.
For Europeans, who see real political debates and political speeches, loaded with real statements when election time comes around, watching the US elections are a joke. The elections for the most powerful man on the planet are pretty much based on physical image and the single phrase: "I served my country in Vietnam". Throw in some pointing to the flag and you've got a "politcal convention".
I must say American politics are a pathetic joke. How can you possibly call that "applauding machine" a political convention. Nothing political has been said. Don't get me wrong, if I were American I'd vote for the democrats, but basically you guys are ****ed with a two party system, let alone the election system.
For Europeans, who see real political debates and political speeches, loaded with real statements when election time comes around, watching the US elections are a joke. The elections for the most powerful man on the planet are pretty much based on physical image and the single phrase: "I served my country in Vietnam". Throw in some pointing to the flag and you've got a "politcal convention".
That's a fair point and one I don't argue, but it's part of his senate career. If you noticed, during his speech on Thursday night, he didn't mention anything about his senate career... he is obviously weak in that area.. voted the MOST liberal senator for the last 4 years I think.
PS. Senetors don't win elections... you know why? Because they have a history of voting on the issues. Oh, but Kerry has just about every single one of his senate votes since he started campaigning. What a man of princinples.
Originally posted by mhflierman
I'm from the Netherlands and I have a more than average interest in (world) politics. I've just been to Farenheit 9/11 and I've followed the Democratic Convention pretty closely.
I must say American politics are a pathetic joke. How can you possibly call that "applauding machine" a political convention. Nothing political has been said. Don't get me wrong, if I were American I'd vote for the democrats, but basically you guys are ****ed with a two party system, let alone the election system.
For Europeans, who see real political debates and political speeches, loaded with real statements when election time comes around, watching the US elections are a joke. The elections for the most powerful man on the planet are pretty much based on physical image and the single phrase: "I served my country in Vietnam". Throw in some pointing to the flag and you've got a "politcal convention".
I'll basically agree with you... but Euro politics are just as bad. You just have more parties that will say anything to get your vote.
Originally posted by -Vince-
That looked like a Nazi convention of the 30's.
Did anyone there not have an American flag in their hand? And all those people screaming like **** the whole time.
Why can we not just get Bill back? He was the man
What's funny is that those Liberals who were at that convention probably despise what the US really stands for, and would never been seen with an American flag otherwise. I was actually shocked at how many there were... quite disturbing.
Shifty*ERETZ.
Fuel Standards -
Ever heard the quote "practice what you preach?" If you are so worried about fuel and gas mileage, get rid of your SUV.
ANTI WAR -
He never threw away his own medals. He threw away someone else's medals... What a hero huh? He also admitted to war crimes back then. Something he denies now. And sorry, if the Democrats are so spineless that they can't vote what they believe, then let them rot.
Force in Iraq -
He voted with the same info Bush had. Once he saw there was political opportunity for him, (namely getting his ass handed to him by Dean in the primaries) he switched sides. There are hundreds of juicy quotes from Kerry supporting the war. He made the case better than Bush ever did. But now that he needs anti war votes, what do you think his position is?
Marriage Penalty -
You don't balance the budget by taxing married people. He always votes for tax increases, no matter what.
Patriot Act -
Just the fact that you say he didn't read what he voted for should say enough... Think of a President who does'nt actually read what he signs into law... come on...
Ok... I actually need to go so I can't finish the rest. I just wish you saw how obvious a liar and a fraud John Kerry is. I actually have faith that Americans will see right through him. I really don't think it matters much who wins this election. I just could'nt stand to have the most liberal senetor in congress as our President.
"Reporting for duty!!" hahaha, yeah...
Fuel Standards -
Ever heard the quote "practice what you preach?" If you are so worried about fuel and gas mileage, get rid of your SUV.
ANTI WAR -
He never threw away his own medals. He threw away someone else's medals... What a hero huh? He also admitted to war crimes back then. Something he denies now. And sorry, if the Democrats are so spineless that they can't vote what they believe, then let them rot.
Force in Iraq -
He voted with the same info Bush had. Once he saw there was political opportunity for him, (namely getting his ass handed to him by Dean in the primaries) he switched sides. There are hundreds of juicy quotes from Kerry supporting the war. He made the case better than Bush ever did. But now that he needs anti war votes, what do you think his position is?
Marriage Penalty -
You don't balance the budget by taxing married people. He always votes for tax increases, no matter what.
Patriot Act -
Just the fact that you say he didn't read what he voted for should say enough... Think of a President who does'nt actually read what he signs into law... come on...
Ok... I actually need to go so I can't finish the rest. I just wish you saw how obvious a liar and a fraud John Kerry is. I actually have faith that Americans will see right through him. I really don't think it matters much who wins this election. I just could'nt stand to have the most liberal senetor in congress as our President.
"Reporting for duty!!" hahaha, yeah...