Gaza Strip

kp41

Fan Favourite
MaestroZidane;3710546 said:
As far as your second statement, is this the one event that makes you say that? How about what's going on in Syria, Iraq, or what happened in Nigeria with the 250+ girls being kidnaped.

All wrong ... but there is no unity to do something ...

Unfortunately, US and their allies think they can import democracy... there is a complete chaos all over the middle east ... with so many double standards ...

Inocent people of gaza shouldn't be killed for Hamas actions ... there should be a political pressure on Hamas from Arab league to stop their actions ... and don't forget Israel regime was looking for an excuse to start this war ...
 

Mandieta6

Red Card - Life
Life Ban
Hamas had more to gain from this than Israel so don't tell me that Israel wanted to start a war.

Deisler, Israel allows injured cicilians to cross the border and still allows humanitarian aid to cross as well as having set up a hospital for Palestinians. They're doing more to limit civilian loss of life than Hamas.
 

Deisler

Red Card [Being a douche] exp. 22/1/06
By no means im defending Hamas. They are who they are. Im just saying it looks more and more like a deliberate act against the population because someone in the knesset decided that they are responsible for siding with Hamas, they are the ones voting for a Hamas backed goverment.

I get the raid against tunnels, but cmon man every neighboughood of Gaza is being shelled. Yesterday it went as far as a hospital being bombed. The elctricity is cut. They are running out of resources, how do you expect one people to distance itself from fractions like Hamas when the Israeli goverment treats them as subhuman. The people of Palestine are being demonized for no reason.
 

Mandieta6

Red Card - Life
Life Ban
I think it's a vicious cycle. Hamas uses civilians as shields and places its weapons and militia in congested areas and around schools and hospitals. Israel shells those places and civilians die, creating more hate towards Israel. These people then join Hamas, etc. Israel is well-aware that every civilian death means a family that will want to destroy them and they don't want a country full of Hamas militia because that will only be more dangerous. Targetting civilians is counterintuitive for Israel but losing civilians is beneficial to Hamas.

I don't think Palestineans are being demonised, I think Hamas is. Civilians are caught in the middle and that is the unfortunate part. Personally, I put the blame for that on Hamas who do not take measures to help them but rather to expose them to enemy fire. If civilians evacuated when warned, not used as shields and Hamas dispersed its militia away from its citizens, MUCH fewer civilians would be in danger. Of course, this means less humanitarian aid, less international pressure and less bargaining power for Hamas.
 

MaestroZidane

YELLOW CARD: Untrustworthy
Mandieta6;3710656 said:
I think it's a vicious cycle. Hamas uses civilians as shields and places its weapons and militia in congested areas and around schools and hospitals. Israel shells those places and civilians die, creating more hate towards Israel. These people then join Hamas, etc. Israel is well-aware that every civilian death means a family that will want to destroy them and they don't want a country full of Hamas militia because that will only be more dangerous. Targetting civilians is counterintuitive for Israel but losing civilians is beneficial to Hamas.

I don't think Palestineans are being demonised, I think Hamas is. Civilians are caught in the middle and that is the unfortunate part. Personally, I put the blame for that on Hamas who do not take measures to help them but rather to expose them to enemy fire. If civilians evacuated when warned, not used as shields and Hamas dispersed its militia away from its citizens, MUCH fewer civilians would be in danger. Of course, this means less humanitarian aid, less international pressure and less bargaining power for Hamas.

To add to your last point, Israel was warning people about their plans so they could evacuate, but what were the palestine people told after those recordings and warnings?? It was all propaganda and not to listen to them.
 

Mandieta6

Red Card - Life
Life Ban
Do I fully support every single thing Israel has done in regards to Gaza? No. Do I fully support their current operation? Yes.
 

Bobby

The Legend
Both Israel and Egypt hate Hamas. They're the ones who have to deal with Hamas on a daily basis and know them better than anyone, certainly better than some blogger in Williamsburg or Shoreditch who every once in awhile works up the will to march down the street and yell at some Jewish kids because they were, you know, born. Antisemitism isn't a scarecrow, it's a real issue, one I've dealt with (and I'm a Christian!) and I'm sure Mandieta6 has dealt with. Remember that BBC reporter who tweeted out that picture of an injured kid "in Gaza" that turned out to be a Syrian kid in Syria? That wasn't a mistake, it was deliberate, and it's a common media tactic.

The US has told Israel to chill, they've told them to do it several times. The Iron Dome was partly paid for by the US in hopes that it'd make them chill out, and to an extent it's worked. But Hamas kept launching rockets, kept digging tunnels, and eventually turned to kidnapping. Israel isn't America's dog, America can't just shout "sit!" and expect Israel to sit, it's a country with free will and a right to defend and even avenge its citizens. Do they go over the top sometimes? Absolutely. But there's a reason Egypt and Jordan don't run to Hamas' aid, they know what they're really about.

You want to see a country go way over the top? See what would happen if a country pulled a stunt like that on Russia. It'd be radioactive waste within a week.
 

Deisler

Red Card [Being a douche] exp. 22/1/06
No one dares to even blame Israel for the existance of Hamas. Fractions like that are a direct result of the decades of humiliation and occupation.

I get the part that Israel needs to exist , what i am disgusted with is those 100 plus children slaughtered like kettle.

But than again we have an exuse. Those antisemites man, they should be eradicated since birth, before they grow old and throw rockets at us.
 

Mandieta6

Red Card - Life
Life Ban
I completely disagree with your notion that Israel is targetting civilians but you're free to think that even though Israel has nothing to gain from such a tactic.
 

Bobby

The Legend
Deisler;3710808 said:
No one dares to even blame Israel for the existance of Hamas. Fractions like that are a direct result of the decades of humiliation and occupation.

I get the part that Israel needs to exist , what i am disgusted with is those 100 plus children slaughtered like kettle.

But than again we have an exuse. Those antisemites man, they should be eradicated since birth, before they grow old and throw rockets at us.

Have you ever read Hamas' charter? If you haven't, go read it. This isn't a Palestinian liberation group, it's an Islamist group hoping to set up an Islamist state within Palestine. They state, several times, that their goals are not possible within a secular framework (specifically stated in Article 27 which discusses the PLO's goals of a secular Palestinian state).

A "slaughter" would infer that Israel meant to kill children, and that it intentionally targeted them. I assure you it did not. Has Israel come in too heavy? Absolutely, the US even told them they did, but they aren't "slaughtering" children. That's outrageous.

Btw, I support a Palestinian state. So long as it's a safe state for all Palestinians.
 

Deisler

Red Card [Being a douche] exp. 22/1/06
You are playing the scrambling game. Like, you are saying they went hard at it. If the intentions are not to kill civilians, why would you wage an all out war? Did you even listen to Kerry ironizing on the Pin Pointing BS Bibby is trying to sell?
Even Madeline Allbraight a fierce Israeli backer called the military action lacking any sense of morality.
What im trying to get is simple,there is no indication whatsoever that the IDF cares about civilians.

And dont give me that Hamas charter as fact, it is after all a small fraction of a bunch of desperate people who have seen their people vanquished from their own land, put into Nazi like concentration camps and persecuted for more tha 60 years. If you want to go into details ask any jew what they call the non-jews. (That coming from someone who is part one)

This is not a struggle of religions as you make it sound, it is far more complicated than that.
 

Mandieta6

Red Card - Life
Life Ban
No indication that they care other than setting up a hospital especially for Palestinians, notify civilians of an upcoming attack at the risk of alerting the militia they're targeting, urging said civilians to leave the premises to avoid injury, agreeing to unilateral humanitarian ceasefires, you mean? Other stuff may be debatable, but saying the IDF is trying to hurt civilians is just buying into the campaign that is demonising Israel, which is exactly what Hamas are trying to achieve by putting their own civilians on the front lines.

The war is against Hamas, not Palestine, even if you don't want to see that.
 

RobbieD_PL

Unreliable deceiver
Staff member
Moderator
If Hamas is deliberately putting weapons near civilian infrastructure; then surely some of the Gazans would realize that Hamas isn't necessarily acting in their best interest... As for the Islamist/secular tension between Hamas and Fatah - although the Palestinian context is a bit further streched time-wise; this is something which is playing out now throughout the Middle East and N. Africa and has been building up ever since the Arab Spring. There's also a current of debate about what kind of state Israel should be (aside from it being the Jewish homeland) and particularly to what extent religious law/custom impacts upon its citizenry as a whole.

As for the violence, it's tragic as it always has been and either side can be seen as being disproportionate and/or fanatical. Israel has a right to defend its existence and Palestinians have a right to their own state. So many issues envelop this dispute; not just religious ethnic ones, but also, access to water (both underground and to the sea), demographics (the Arab citizens of Israel and how having a single state solution could dilute the Jewish majority and the Jewish nature of Israel); whether Palestine should be demilitarized as an independent state, status of Jerusalem and Arab-recognition of the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state.

Also, I remember a few years ago, I remember a quote/citation from someone about the Israel/Palestine conflict saying that every current tragedy and going back into time to bring-up either side's feelings of injustice doesn't do anything to find peace and be able to move forward.
 

Pogba4Now

Team Captain
"More than 1,300 Palestinians and 58 Israelis have now died in the conflict.

Most of the Palestinian deaths have been civilians.

56 Israeli soldiers have been killed along with 2 civilians."

Source: BBC

These statistics say it all about Israel.
 

MaestroZidane

YELLOW CARD: Untrustworthy
After the 12 hour cease-fire, Hamas went ahead and continued it's firing of rockets, whereas Israel was ready and willing to extend it to 24 hours.

A reclusive Hamas commander has rejected suggestions the Palestinian militants are ready for a ceasefire with Israel to end violence in Gaza.

In an audio recording, Mohammad Deif, commander of Hamas' military wing, said his soldiers were "eager for death".

Source: BBC

If only Hamas cared for the innocent people
 

Pogba4Now

Team Captain
Yes but Isr*el should be killing Hamas soldiers though, not innocent people. Isr*el is taking advantage of the situation to kill more innocent people.

The rockets are being fired by Hamas, not the innocent people who are losing limbs and lives.

Hamas is continuing to fire rockets. Target them, not the civilians.
 

Mandieta6

Red Card - Life
Life Ban
That's ridiculous. Hamas is firing rockets from congested areas and using their civilians as human shields. They have explicitly said that the human shield tactic has been tremendously successful. Hamas has done nothing to limit their civilian casualities and benefit from them. The only people who have shelters are Hamas leaders and civilians are turned away from them and told to stay at their houses even if they are warned of a bombing.

Israel, on the other hand, underreports casualties to avoid helping Hamas improve their aim, they have set up the proper defenses and work to help civilians.

I hate when people just point at the figures because, to use a football analogy, it would be like seeing the Spain-Netherlands match and saying the latter must be tremendous without considering the culpability of the former's defense.

Please point out to me how Israel can dishabilitate Hamas without civilian casualties. I have never heard a single suggestion for an alternative plan of action Israel could pursue other than twiddle its thumbs.
 

Deisler

Red Card [Being a douche] exp. 22/1/06
There are 4 children killed for every IDF soldier. That is the statistic that bothers me more than anything. Especially the last strike against the ONU school was just wrong and immoral. That kind of regard of human live has been applied only from the Nazis.

The excuse of being a populated area to me is as criminal as the action itself. Shows no regard for human life and it proves the point that this is a deliberate act of agressive genocide against one people. There is no two way about it.
 

Mandieta6

Red Card - Life
Life Ban
Again, give me an alternative course of action for dealing with Hamas. Any suggestion will do.

Also note that the UN itself recently criticised Hamas for keeping weapons in schools. This is similar to the 'you don't negotiate with terrorists' line. If Israel laid off because of Hamas' defense gambit, it would encourage Hamas to keep doing it and put more civilian lives in danger further down the road.
 


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