i dont get it i really dont

[snoppf1]

Ok I cannot be bothered anymore to say y pes4 is a letdown so ill just copy and paste dis in every argument I get into

first off can i say that i was like biggi a few years ago, love pes think fifa s**t but after pes4 i cant beleive how the world have taken to this game a say it is the best footie game ever

secound, i no newbie to konami footie games ive been playin them since iss pro in 1996 and all through those titles never apart from maybe pes1 beeen disserpointed
But here comes pes4..............

1. running animation are c**p they run like c.ronaldo who runs like he mentally ill, if you watch players run they normally run like how they do on fifa not like demented sticks on pes4

Players speed is also a bit slow which also makes the animation look comedy

2. Movement of joystick is bad, it still has 8 directions unlike on fifa where they have 360degrees, and this makes for unnatural turning.

3. Dead balls are unexciting, fifa’s dead balls are s**t to say the least ucl is how deadballs should be done, pes's ones are very overrated there plain boring and not very successful, the select kicker button is good though

4. Goalies are dodgy with defections,when a pass or a clearence is deflcted they dont pick up the ball when it rolls to them

5. dry options , master league is basically only used for getting the unlockerbls part from that nothing, league and cup mode are good but what game doesn’t have those, still very easy to cheat (put all your players full stats in create mode, generic kits are horrible, NO STRIPE DESIGN: eek: and the rest of edit mode had to be there cuz of the lack of licenses.

There you have it five big mistakes which on the whole make pes4 a letdown

Now DONT just say 2ohh look at him dont like pro evo, should get banned" if pes4 is so great gimme awnsers to show that i have missed summen vital ok

ohh and secoundly im not like some of these so called fotball all knowers cuz they come from europe, im from ENGLAND and i actually go to football matches and go out with friends, my life is not a cpu screen!!!!!!!!

p.s. I think i have left out some more problems with pro evo

 

[ganxxxter]

well, play fifa and complain about the great majority of serious magazines about computer and video games that rated pes much higher than fifa
btw. player movement is much better in pes/we, it's not like the ice-skating fifa-players, ball physics are way better in pes and free kicks and corners are completely shi t t y in fifa (cross-hairs and text-passages like in role-playing games)

 

[MasterM]

I agree with you that pes4 isnt a holy game as much people think it is.

well i agree on point 1 and 2.
Dont know what you mean with point 3, but i scored a lot from dead ball situations and they are very exciting, mayb you should train them more.
point 4 is just a stupid bug i think and point 5 i dont really care about.

i want to add that pes4 is too scripted. Too often you see that the ball fysics get "****ed up". The ball magically bounces in the direction of the opponent, or it bounces 2 meters from you feet just for the opponent to intercept it or it flies over the sideline like a rocket while you only touched it with a toe etc...

 

[ladylover]

Well if you have a problem with the licenses you can download them from the Inet, I managed to put the licenses on my PS2 version. As for the deadballs, it is the best you can have, you can take it in a couple of ways with one or 2 players standing by the ball. I actually like the speed of the game, that creates the action and excitement. Don't tell me that you like te slow boring football which you see in Fifa. If you want to put the players to full stats, then that's your problem if you want to cheat, you have to make the choice, it is not like pES is telling you to change the stats to cheat, that is your choice. And the last point well at least there is a creation centre has to be there, Konami is giving you the oppertunity to make the kits more a like, it is better then not having one at all.

And there must be a reason why people change from Fifa to PES and not the other way around and why PES wins awards etc..

 

[Panna]

I agree with snoppf, these are some of the things Konami need to work out. I could name at least 10 more flaws I've found in Pes 4. But for me the pro's outweigh the cons. A major pro for me is the multiplayer gameplay.

 

[Youri Bakker]

Originally posted by ganxxxter
well, play fifa and complain about the great majority of serious magazines about computer and video games that rated pes much higher than fifa
btw. player movement is much better in pes/we, it's not like the ice-skating fifa-players, ball physics are way better in pes and free kicks and corners are completely shi t t y in fifa (cross-hairs and text-passages like in role-playing games)

Don't talk crap. FIFA's player animation is much better (I'm talking about the running part now). I've made to little movies to prove it. When you still think the PES players run more realisticly you should go to the doctor (only when you compared the PES running with yours).
FIFA's players look around them when dribbling, PES players don't, that makes a huge difference, also the overall running animation is better in FIFA, it's not only because the are looking around them.

FIFA/UCL running
PES/WE running

 

[Rport03]

The running in FIFA does look better. The player in PES looks like hes walking fast sometimes slow, and in FIFA you can clearly tell he's running. The extra animation in FIFA also looks better with his head turning and all too. Now one thing I notcied is in that FIFA video the ball keeps rolling, while in PES the ball slides like twice, now if you kick a ball the ball just doesnt slide, it rolls, and in that PES video you can clearly tell where the animation begins and ends (with the ball slideing). All in all I think the FIFA running animation is much better and fluid than the PES one.

 

[napolistill#1]

“1. running animation are c**p they run like c.ronaldo who runs like he mentally ill, if you watch players run they normally run like how they do on fifa not like demented sticks on pes4

Players speed is also a bit slow which also makes the animation look comedy”

While we can agree to disagree on this point, it really is telling that your #1 item is a graphical element and not a gameplay one. If the two games were absolutely equal, then I would say that the graphics would be important to tip the scales. But not having defined the gameplay, this argument should be 7-10 on a list, at best!

---------------------------------------------------------
”2. Movement of joystick is bad, it still has 8 directions unlike on fifa where they have 360degrees, and this makes for unnatural turning.”

This is absolutely untrue. FIFA only moves in 8 directions. Anyone willing to bet some $$ I’ll be happy to take it! Besides that though. How does this affect gameplay? Who cares how many degrees your players turn if there are no tactical settings and your MF’s don’t support your attack? Two things which are definitely apparent in FIFA!


---------------------------------------------------------
”3. Dead balls are unexciting, fifa’s dead balls are s**t to say the least ucl is how deadballs should be done, pes's ones are very overrated there plain boring and not very successful, the select kicker button is good though”

Can you define exciting. In real life a ball is spotted and a player shoots or passes the ball to a general area. If he is lucky (and skillful enough) he will be successful. But really, these are extremely low % in pro soccer. I mean, look at the records. Very few goals are scored off set pieces. While this freekick simulation may not satiate your gamer needs on an excitement level in PES, it certainly doesn’t detract from its similarity to real-life. I haven’t played UCL, so I can’t state how that enters the equation.


---------------------------------------------------------
”4. Goalies are dodgy with defections,when a pass or a clearence is deflcted they dont pick up the ball when it rolls to them”

Agreed that this is a bug, but not a major one as very few goals are conceded as a consequence of this bug.


----------------------------------------------------------
”5. dry options , master league is basically only used for getting the unlockerbls part from that nothing, league and cup mode are good but what game doesn’t have those, still very easy to cheat (put all your players full stats in create mode, generic kits are horrible, NO STRIPE DESIGN: eek: and the rest of edit mode had to be there cuz of the lack of licenses.”

Here we have a potpourri of issues in one item. As far as ML is concerned, I love it. There are many PES fans who don’t. While not as deep as the dynasty mode in FIFA, personally it has more lasting appeal because the gameplay is so superior that the changes you make are much more important than in FIFA, where the last two years, I have mastered the gameplay with the default team I choose and little change is required on my part to make my club competitive. As for the kits, just like your 1st item above and insert my thoughts here. If both the titles had similar gameplay, then I would say that licenses tip the balances. But in PES vs FIFA, the gameplay are on such different levels, that I don’t even get to the license issue. As a huge soccer fan, I am much more interested in the gameplay trying to honestly recreate the beautiful game than with how nice the uniforms look!


--------------------------------------------------------
”There you have it five big mistakes which on the whole make pes4 a letdown

Now DONT just say 2ohh look at him dont like pro evo, should get banned" if pes4 is so great gimme awnsers to show that i have missed summen vital ok

ohh and secoundly im not like some of these so called fotball all knowers cuz they come from europe, im from ENGLAND and i actually go to football matches and go out with friends, my life is not a cpu screen!!!!!!!!

p.s. I think i have left out some more problems with pro evo”

Your 5 big problems are 1 bug, 1 non-issue, 1 realistic issue that you don’t find exciting, and 2 issues around graphics and options. If you go here: http://www.soccergaming.tv/showthread.php?threadid=120937 you’ll see my thread on GAMEPLAY issues with FIFA. All 15 items I’ve listed can not be argued. I still haven’t seen a similar list about PES gameplay issues (please understand that there is a big difference between graphics, options and actual on-field gameplay). Nice try though!

 

[Youri Bakker]

Originally posted by napolistill#1
“1. running animation are c**p they run like c.ronaldo who runs like he mentally ill, if you watch players run they normally run like how they do on fifa not like demented sticks on pes4

Players speed is also a bit slow which also makes the animation look comedy”

While we can agree to disagree on this point, it really is telling that your #1 item is a graphical element and not a gameplay one. If the two games were absolutely equal, then I would say that the graphics would be important to tip the scales. But not having defined the gameplay, this argument should be 7-10 on a list, at best!

---------------------------------------------------------
”2. Movement of joystick is bad, it still has 8 directions unlike on fifa where they have 360degrees, and this makes for unnatural turning.”

This is absolutely untrue. FIFA only moves in 8 directions. Anyone willing to bet some $$ I’ll be happy to take it! Besides that though. How does this affect gameplay? Who cares how many degrees your players turn if there are no tactical settings and your MF’s don’t support your attack? Two things which are definitely apparent in FIFA!

--------------------------------------------------------

Point 1 is not only a graphics element. It also has his effect on the gameplay. Because of the few running animations the players will lose the ball easier than in FIFA. Or the will keep the ball in a less realistic way. When I want to make a turn in PES when running fast it looks like an ice-skater who makes a bend, they put one foot before the other. Slowing down the player takes to much time so you will loose the ball quicker than it will be in FIFA.
PES fans always cry about the real football feeling they get when playing PES, well, I don't get that feeling when seeing the players run like Terminator.

Your view on point two just made me laugh. It affects the gameplay in many ways. It's very important how many ways the players has to turn. FIFA/UCL has 24 directions, while PES has only 8. Having more directions, means more ways to perform runs, passes, shots etc. You can only run forward, backward, left, right and diagonal. Not many ways to dribble, maybe that explains the strange way of making a turn as I said in point one.

 

[Rport03]

Well I must agree with Youri on statment #2, the direction the player runs is very important if not the most important part of a football game or for that matter any sport. In american football if you could only run front, back, left, right, and 45deg angles then you cant fake someone by running like on a 20deg angle or even a 60 degree. Now in football/soccer its more important than in american football seeing how your running all the time. 360 degree direction is more important here than a game like pac-man. So yes the direction someone runs in is very important to the gameplay but hey many people might see the meaning of gameplay a diffrent way.

 

[ladylover]

Hahaha, Fifa fans always try to seek out mistakes in PES which are minor if you compair it with Fifa. I have never heard somebody complaining about the gameplay, the AI etc,the true aspects of a game. The only good Fifa games were 98' en 99' from there it went downhill with Fifa. So what if they don't run realistic in PES for you guys, it is good enough to win awards, get high scores and good reviews and most importantly MORE FANS! You all know that PES every year gets a lot of new fans and Fifa's getting less. The amount of tactics and commands you can create in in PES is fantastic, why don't you complain about that, because you know it is good, Fifa just give 4-4-2 then finish you can't do or change anything to fit your own style of play. Each team has his own tactics in PES, one team plays a lot of trough passes and the other plays more using the wingplayers etc. Here in Amsterdam everybody is talking about PES, 8 out of 10 people plays PES, It has been a while since I have heard somebody saying that Fifa is a good game. if you look at the other threads people are saying that playing PES is like touching the face of God etc. You guys are so blind too admit that PES is a good game..........

 

[soccerfan]

You guys are so blind too admit that PES is a good game..........

You are right and wrong to say that. I believe most Fifa fans know that PES is a good game and are not blind to that. PES can win lots of awards and obtain very good reviews because in gameplay wise it rules. It has very deep tactical and strategy mode that appeal to serious football gamers and has created a niche market in this area. Most hard core football fans will turn to this game.

However, Fifa is a game for the general gamers. It make things simple for people to play. The sad thing about EA is that they have taken position edit and marking strategy out of the game. Its recent releases have shown they have improved the gameplay area but very slowly. It will get there on day.

I believe that the fifa series will cater to the mass whilst PES is for the niche sectiion. Both games need improvements.

 

[ganxxxter]

Originally posted by ladylover
Hahaha, Fifa fans always try to seek out mistakes in PES which are minor if you compair it with Fifa. I have never heard somebody complaining about the gameplay, the AI etc,the true aspects of a game. The only good Fifa games were 98' en 99' from there it went downhill with Fifa. So what if they don't run realistic in PES for you guys, it is good enough to win awards, get high scores and good reviews and most importantly MORE FANS! You all know that PES every year gets a lot of new fans and Fifa's getting less. The amount of tactics and commands you can create in in PES is fantastic, why don't you complain about that, because you know it is good, Fifa just give 4-4-2 then finish you can't do or change anything to fit your own style of play. Each team has his own tactics in PES, one team plays a lot of trough passes and the other plays more using the wingplayers etc. Here in Amsterdam everybody is talking about PES, 8 out of 10 people plays PES, It has been a while since I have heard somebody saying that Fifa is a good game. if you look at the other threads people are saying that playing PES is like touching the face of God etc. You guys are so blind too admit that PES is a good game..........

true! btw. it's not only the tactics that are better in pes but also the variety of very different situations, thousands of possibilities to score goals etc. of course, fifa gets better too, but it's still much more scripted than pes

 

[napolistill#1]

Originally posted by Youri Bakker
Point 1 is not only a graphics element. It also has his effect on the gameplay. Because of the few running animations the players will lose the ball easier than in FIFA. Or the will keep the ball in a less realistic way. When I want to make a turn in PES when running fast it looks like an ice-skater who makes a bend, they put one foot before the other. Slowing down the player takes to much time so you will loose the ball quicker than it will be in FIFA.
PES fans always cry about the real football feeling they get when playing PES, well, I don't get that feeling when seeing the players run like Terminator.

Your view on point two just made me laugh. It affects the gameplay in many ways. It's very important how many ways the players has to turn. FIFA/UCL has 24 directions, while PES has only 8. Having more directions, means more ways to perform runs, passes, shots etc. You can only run forward, backward, left, right and diagonal. Not many ways to dribble, maybe that explains the strange way of making a turn as I said in point one.

Ok, let's get on the same page here. The player animations can be interpreted in two ways. The first is that people like the look of the FIFA animations better which is strictly a graphical/visual area. This is what I understood by the original poster's meaning.

The second meaning for animation is how the dribbling plays out because of the animation players in PES are tied to. This is simply a mater of opinion. I don't think there is a huge difference, and in many instances, PES is actually better than FIFA in this area. Being a former semi-pro soccer player, I can tell you that when my player has the ball in PES, I approach the attack similarly as to how I would approach it in real life, regardless of how it looks. This is what PES players mean by a n immersive soccer experience. When playing FIFA, I approach dribbling and passing the same as I would when playing Space Invaders or PacMan, I memorize the defense patterns, I master the twitch capabilities of the dribbling and special moves and easily beat the defense.

As for the meaning of gameplay, again we are on different pages. An example of poor gameplay is when the CPU controlled defense in FIFA sits back at their own box, then when you have the ball and cross a magical point on the pitch, the D comes after you. This has nothing to do with animations and fluid dribbling and sharp passing and all the other bs FIFA fans like to boast about. This is strictly a poor adaptation of the actual sport of soccer to a gameplay simulation on a video game and feels horrible when playing. Another gameplay deficciency would be when you are taking a corner and only three of your teammates are in a box, you pick one of them, play a silly mini-game and that's how a corner is taken. Agian, this has nothing to do with real soccer and simply feels wrong.

All the posts on this thread back up the point that FIFA fans are enamored with the "look" of the game and this is what makes it more realsitic to them. PES fans are more interested in the "feel" of the game. These are two huge differences in experiencing a game. That's why every point made pro-FIFA is based on the way players look (animations, movement directions, etc) while every point made pro-PES is how the players and teams behave and therefore feel. Also, a previous poster touched on an area that nobody in there right mind can deny PES totally owns FIFA, strategy and tactics.

 

[Youri Bakker]

The directions have nothing to do with graphics or the way a player looks! I gives you much more ways to do something on the pitch when having more directions.

I agree that PES totally owns FIFA with strategy and tactics, it's a big flaw EA doesn't ******* improve it. In the FIFA 2004 makin of movies Danny Isaac talked about a German coach which new very much about tactics, but I have never seen anything special at all. I just hope they will improve it drasticly in FIFA 2006.

About the defence sitting back in FIFA, I know and the midfield doesn't support the attack, again a stupid mistake by EA (do they ever test their games??). All these things have been fixed by UCL 2004-2005 which is a much better game than FIFA in terms of gameplay. It still suffers from bullet shots and long passes which travel to hard, but it has really improved much.

 

[ganxxxter]

Originally posted by Youri Bakker
The directions have nothing to do with graphics or the way a player looks! I gives you much more ways to do something on the pitch when having more directions.

I agree that PES totally owns FIFA with strategy and tactics, it's a big flaw EA doesn't ******* improve it. In the FIFA 2004 makin of movies Danny Isaac talked about a German coach which new very much about tactics, but I have never seen anything special at all. I just hope they will improve it drasticly in FIFA 2006.

About the defence sitting back in FIFA, I know and the midfield doesn't support the attack, again a stupid mistake by EA (do they ever test their games??). All these things have been fixed by UCL 2004-2005 which is a much better game than FIFA in terms of gameplay. It still suffers from bullet shots and long passes which travel to hard, but it has really improved much.

again a well-reflected answer from a fifa-gamer, but the main difference i still see between fifa and pes are the varieties of different situations ingame. fifa05 seems much more scripted (haven't tried ucl), that's the reason, why a lot of goals look completely the same and there doesn't seem to be as much varieties to score as there are in pes. that's the main important difference. Take a look at some of the goals i posted in the other thread (maybe i'm gonna open a new one for the best goals in pes and fifa ). it just underlines the huge variety of pes
the only thing which is better in fifa are the licenses and the 24 directions to run (btw. there are more than 8 directions in pes, when sprinting, there are 24 as well ), but refering to the whole gameplay, pes is still the best u can get (but not perfect )
i think the games should introduce quick free-kicks and throw-ins in the next versions, that would make the gameplay much more dynamic and realistic

 

[napolistill#1]

Originally posted by Youri Bakker
The directions have nothing to do with graphics or the way a player looks! I gives you much more ways to do something on the pitch when having more directions.

I agree that PES totally owns FIFA with strategy and tactics, it's a big flaw EA doesn't ******* improve it. In the FIFA 2004 makin of movies Danny Isaac talked about a German coach which new very much about tactics, but I have never seen anything special at all. I just hope they will improve it drasticly in FIFA 2006.

About the defence sitting back in FIFA, I know and the midfield doesn't support the attack, again a stupid mistake by EA (do they ever test their games??). All these things have been fixed by UCL 2004-2005 which is a much better game than FIFA in terms of gameplay. It still suffers from bullet shots and long passes which travel to hard, but it has really improved much.

Once again we are arguing apples and oranges. How many directions your player can turn and dribble are quite meaningless if the supporting game engine: A) doesn't have realistic AI defense patterns, MF doens't support the attack and C) has extremely limited startegy options. What it comes down to are issues which are huge gaping chasms in calling the game a true soccer sims vs nitpicking little flaws. In my thread where I listed 15 huge, monumental problems with FIFA's gameplay, I didn't even say a word about the bullet shots which are 100000x more ridiculous than any PES player animation flaw because if FIFA had all the other areas in place (like PES) I could very easily live with FIFA as an adequate soccer gaming experience.

What's more amazing to me, is that someone can come on a board and admit that FIFA MF don't support the attack and that defenses sit back and wait (taking away any chance of playing a sound counterattacking game) and that the strategies and tactics are rubbish and still say they prefer that title!

 

[napolistill#1]

Originally posted by Rport03
Well I must agree with Youri on statment #2, the direction the player runs is very important if not the most important part of a football game or for that matter any sport. In american football if you could only run front, back, left, right, and 45deg angles then you cant fake someone by running like on a 20deg angle or even a 60 degree. Now in football/soccer its more important than in american football seeing how your running all the time. 360 degree direction is more important here than a game like pac-man. So yes the direction someone runs in is very important to the gameplay but hey many people might see the meaning of gameplay a diffrent way.

This has got to be the single most stupid comment I have ever read on these boards and exposes FIFA fans as a whole. The direction a player runs is THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF A FOOTBALL GAME?!?!?!?! Are you freaking kidding me? How about all the tactics? How about the AI? How about that after about 3 weeks I can score 5 goals every freaking game in FIFA because the moves and patterns are easy to master? How about MF not supporting attack? Oh my God, I truly can't believe I just read that comment!

Actually, you FIFA fans have finally won me over. I totally agree with you. #2 on the list of most important items for a football game is the licenses. #3 is a crappy dynasty mode with unrealistic transfer market and where I have no incentive to improve my team because I am easily winning Serie A with default Fiorentina after 2 seasons, #4 is 1st touch which has me beating my opponent 100% of the time. What have I been thinking all these years of playing, reffing and coaching high level soccer.

On Sunday, when I coach my team's season opener, I will make sure that they have beautiful uniforms and I will make sure that my team is running in all 360 degrees. I won't worry about tactics and strategies though, becuase these are really low on the list for realistic soccer. Oh yeah, when my Forward has the ball near the opposition box, I'll tell my MF to hang back and not support him. Unless of course I randomly yell out one of their names at which time they will know that they need to make an impromptu "off-the-ball-run". While he's making this off-the-ball run I'll strictly instruct the other players on the field to stay put and not shift to cover for the now vacated space on the field. When my players have the ball near midfield and the opposing team's D presses them I will yell at the other coach telling him that his defense should be parked near their box and shouldn't come after me until I we pass a magincal line in the grass! When one of my players receives the ball and the opoosing defender pokes it away I'll yell out that we have mastery of 1st touch and they are not allowed to ever steal the ball this way! FIFA has taught me a whole new soccer I never knew existed.

 

[Rport03]

Im guessing your not understanding what im trying to say there. If you can't run in any direction you want then you cant really play the game all that great. heck try playing football without running, you wont go very far. Now I never said in my post that running is THE MOST important feature in a football game but it is an important part. If you can't run then you cant do tactics etc.. Think about it, really think hard. You said my post was the dumbest ever but yet your talking about things that I never said. Now how could you comment on my post and yet saying that I said things when I didnt.

Now yes The AI IS an important part and yes tactics are also an important part, but again if you can't run then how could you play a game lol. Plain and simple running and useing tricks are a part of the game. Fakeing players are another part of the game and all this goes back to running around. If you have a game that all you can do it run front, back, left, right, and at a perfect 45 degree angles, then wheres the fun in that? Running in any direction at anytime is an important part to a game (video game that is).

Now im not saying FIFA is the most realistic football/soccer game around, real life football is. So anyways please next time you comment on someones post, read what they say and not what you think they said.

 

[ladylover]

Originally posted by Rport03
Im guessing your not understanding what im trying to say there. If you can't run in any direction you want then you cant really play the game all that great. heck try playing football without running, you wont go very far. Now I never said in my post that running is THE MOST important feature in a football game but it is an important part. If you can't run then you cant do tactics etc.. Think about it, really think hard. You said my post was the dumbest ever but yet your talking about things that I never said. Now how could you comment on my post and yet saying that I said things when I didnt.

Now yes The AI IS an important part and yes tactics are also an important part, but again if you can't run then how could you play a game lol. Plain and simple running and useing tricks are a part of the game. Fakeing players are another part of the game and all this goes back to running around. If you have a game that all you can do it run front, back, left, right, and at a perfect 45 degree angles, then wheres the fun in that? Running in any direction at anytime is an important part to a game (video game that is).

Now im not saying FIFA is the most realistic football/soccer game around, real life football is. So anyways please next time you comment on someones post, read what they say and not what you think they said.

But who said that you can't run in PES? , in PES the players act like a team, the strikers cross each other and try to find space to receive a through pass or to receive a cross. The defenders give each other back-up if needed, the midfield do their parts both in defence and attack. If there is a game where players don't run by themself then it has to be Fifa, it is nonscene to control 2 players at the same time, with one you have to try to not lose the ball and the other you have to run into a free space, I can't believe that people are still playing Fifa, while all of this are lacking and even worse they know that it is lacking. Another thing there are a lot of threads showing the good graphics of PES, the players look a like, the last time I saw Fifa the players looked like their faces were rotten or something. PES graphics aren't bad, the pixels are great etc. Each year EA promises a lot of new 'great' features but when you buy the game half of them are left out, every year they give you the same game, Fifa 04, Fifa 05 and UCL all look the same, if you look at PES you can clearly see improvements.