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I was never so proud of a coach like I am about Dunga. Even if he loses this Cup.

tinytim

Youth Team
I'll explain why.

I've been following football for many years, more than half of my life. I saw big talking coaches and players, great, flairy teams that came up to nowhere. And I saw pragmatic men, sitting on their benches, getting boos and the worst critics from so called 'expertised' commentators and journalists...and I saw their captains raising trophies and this is what got and stand in history.

In the latest 5 years, the amount of media content increased marchingly. And along that growth of course the football talk grew too. Blogs, videos, columns in websites, newspapers...the voice of these crap fabricators, the words of these bull***t manufacturers called 'media people' is accessible and digested more than ever.

Let me explain this: in '94, Brazil won a flawless World Cup, no loss. Not a charming football, it's true, but that team had its moments of true brazilian art. After 24 years, Brazil won. And Parreira was crucified, because according to the 'expertised' he hadn't balls to come up with a more offensive squad.

12 years later, he had that much more offensive squad. And Brazil was easy prey to France. Result? The same bastards who criticized him after putting Brazil in the top rank of WC trophies asking for a more 'eye candy' team, now crushed him for giving them what they wanted all alon.

Now let's come down to Dunga. His profile, his results as a coach are EXCELLENT. Fact. No question about it. But people are still unsatisfied. And last night, in the press conference aftter the match against The Drogba's Friends Team, he swore - audible - on a journalist who apparently disagreed about something he said, nodding, as someone here pointed out.

Let me tell about this journalist. He's a pain the ass. His name is Alex Escobar, he's from Rio de Janeiro where every goddamn person there thinks that knows EVERYTHING about football. About playing, about coaching, EVERYTHING. And I'm probably not wrong but there are no 'cariocas' (people from Rio) in Dunga's team. He has severely and frequently beated up Dunga in his blog and column since he decided for the 23 to Africa.

In '97, Scolari was Palmeiras' coach and a 'smart' journalist tried to pull a funny interview with him, full of ironies about his work. No negotation: Scolari punched him straight in the chin. It was stupid because the guy became even more famous after that. Two years before, '95, Flamengo and Gremio were semifinalists in Brazil's Cup. Ex-Madrid's Luxemburgo coached Flamengo. He started pressuring the referee. No negotiation: Scolari, who coached Gremio, punched him twice in the face. Luxemburgo is carioca, btw.

I'm not a violence appreciator or endorse it but some people EARN it. And in the case of the moronic media people, either they're just smart ones, trying to step on some coach's back or cariocas with a mic, I find no guilty at all. They want to tease a guy until he breaks and they'll brag about it. And if the teased one wants to argue using the voice of reason, the answer is simple: 'the football needs the media'.

BULLCRAP. The media needs football. I'm done with snob journalists who really think they can control facts and football like puppet masters. The fans DON'T WANT YOUR OPINION, MORONS. They want dribbling, efforts, endurance, beauty, flair, goals. This is what the guardless bloody consumers of the poop you come up with really need, not your poop at all.

I'll support and admire Dunga forever even if he loses this Cup. This is exactly what a coach should do: competence, hard work and a unshakeable stand. No one can move him because he knows what he does and he truly believes it.

It's a time of fake gentlemanship, of 'sensitivity'. We're living and watching times of sweet arrogance, disguised among words and paragraphs. Passive agressive atitudes which can't be answered in the same level because in that case, and solely that case, it's unpolite.

I'm not gaucho, (from Brazil's south region) but I totally understand what these guys go through. And as for Scolari, people pick on Dunga for that reason, they're both Gauchos - specially cariocas do that. They hate the gaucho's pride about his land and his way of playing football - much more focused on marking and tactics rather than improvise and skill.

Now can a journalist bring it in his pocked when he interviews someone? Can he carry his 'clubism' when he's talking about football in general, when he gives opinions? Since a 'media professional' has his own space - facebooks, blogs, tweeters - is he allowed to talk about football in the way he wants, even with partiality? If he does, do you think that isn't dangerous to the point of influencing his opinions when the context allows no partiality at all? I'll let you say.
 

Tiago_10

Senior Squad
LOL

I actually think you're right, even if it does come at a price.. Having to read all that. :tongue:


All joking aside, the thread title somehow suggests it's Brazil's right to win the Cup? If Dunga loses the cup? What, now you're in the final already?

Brazil has lots of quality in their team, as usual, but it's not like everyone is expecting you to win every tournament. Teams like Argentina, Germany, Netherlands, Spain are put aside so easily?
 

tinytim

Youth Team
No. I meant than in Brazil, if you're not the winner, you're supposed to be hated. But in Dunga's case, for me, it won't be this way.
 

Recrero152

Reserve Team
Great post, read it with huge interest. You should be a football blogger

Off topic: Why the hell would you like a Swedish music band? Their music sucks! :P
 

tinytim

Youth Team
I don't think so. And if he was, don't blame him.

I'm a guy, straight, but tim coud be "Timothy" or "Timeria", so let him be.

About swedish bands...Recrero, if you ever listened to Gyllene Tider, you'd understand.

I'll give you this tip:

Flickorna Pa TV2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWxXd7e8DTw

It's Per Gessle's band prior to Roxette.

Listen with no prejudice and I promise you: you'll have fun.
 

Recrero152

Reserve Team
Dude, I live in Sweden and I know all about what there is to know. But we all have our opinions and styles I guess. Many people would laugh at what I, including several nations at the Balkans listen to.

Horatiu;2893920 said:
I think Recrero is trying to ask you out Tim.

People who accuse others of being homosexuals without any proof nor motive whatsoever usually tries to cover up their own latent homosexuality. Suck on that sour apple for a while.
 

Xifio

The Von Trapps
the media is ruthless and dirty, and they do what they need to to spin their stories and sell their publications ... but that shouldn't distract from the fact that Dunga has taken a team that is supposed to be about making football an art, and turned them into a machine-like winning unit ...

both in '98 and in 2002 you guys managed to bring out the flair from the flair players ... what of that?

it is good that you admired Dunga's unshakable nature ... but what is a virtue of being "unshakable" on one side, is considered a vice of being "stubborn" on the flip side ... football is about entertainment ... if a team wins with efficiency -- as Greece did, for example, in 2004 -- it gives me no reason to watch football, because the skill and the flair is sacrificed for the result ... even this Brazilian squad's natural flair and talent ekes out once in a while; but the tactic is very clear ... it is almost ugly ... if that entertains you, so be it ... and if football is not about entertainment for you, and it is "something more", then you've got some priorities to sort out ...

regardless, Dunga's team's style has destroyed the image of Brazilian ginga that so many people around the world loved to watch ... for that, as far as I am concerned, he cannot be forgiven ...
 

tinytim

Youth Team
Recrero152;2893929 said:
Dude, I live in Sweden and I know all about what there is to know. But we all have our opinions and styles I guess. Many people would laugh at what I, including several nations at the Balkans listen to.



People who accuse others of being homosexuals without any proof nor motive whatsoever usually tries to cover up their own latent homosexuality. Suck on that sour apple for a while.

I like both Per and Marie, eithe solo or Roxette likewise. I prefer Mr. Gessle of course. And obviously cultural heritage influences musical taste. Gyllene Tider is just great. It's 70's rock filtered from the american bullcrapish ideals of artsy rock.
 

Gene Reginato

Youth Team
Dunga lost it. His attitudes are under investigation. FIFA may punish him for his swear words and personal attacks against Drogba, Escobar and the referee.

There is precedent, Maradona was fined for similar things.
 

Sevillista

Starting XI
tinytim;2893853 said:
I'll explain why.

I've been following football for many years, more than half of my life. I saw big talking coaches and players, great, flairy teams that came up to nowhere. And I saw pragmatic men, sitting on their benches, getting boos and the worst critics from so called 'expertised' commentators and journalists...and I saw their captains raising trophies and this is what got and stand in history.

In the latest 5 years, the amount of media content increased marchingly. And along that growth of course the football talk grew too. Blogs, videos, columns in websites, newspapers...the voice of these crap fabricators, the words of these bull***t manufacturers called 'media people' is accessible and digested more than ever.

Let me explain this: in '94, Brazil won a flawless World Cup, no loss. Not a charming football, it's true, but that team had its moments of true brazilian art. After 24 years, Brazil won. And Parreira was crucified, because according to the 'expertised' he hadn't balls to come up with a more offensive squad.

12 years later, he had that much more offensive squad. And Brazil was easy prey to France. Result? The same bastards who criticized him after putting Brazil in the top rank of WC trophies asking for a more 'eye candy' team, now crushed him for giving them what they wanted all alon.

Now let's come down to Dunga. His profile, his results as a coach are EXCELLENT. Fact. No question about it. But people are still unsatisfied. And last night, in the press conference aftter the match against The Drogba's Friends Team, he swore - audible - on a journalist who apparently disagreed about something he said, nodding, as someone here pointed out.

Let me tell about this journalist. He's a pain the ass. His name is Alex Escobar, he's from Rio de Janeiro where every goddamn person there thinks that knows EVERYTHING about football. About playing, about coaching, EVERYTHING. And I'm probably not wrong but there are no 'cariocas' (people from Rio) in Dunga's team. He has severely and frequently beated up Dunga in his blog and column since he decided for the 23 to Africa.

In '97, Scolari was Palmeiras' coach and a 'smart' journalist tried to pull a funny interview with him, full of ironies about his work. No negotation: Scolari punched him straight in the chin. It was stupid because the guy became even more famous after that. Two years before, '95, Flamengo and Gremio were semifinalists in Brazil's Cup. Ex-Madrid's Luxemburgo coached Flamengo. He started pressuring the referee. No negotiation: Scolari, who coached Gremio, punched him twice in the face. Luxemburgo is carioca, btw.

I'm not a violence appreciator or endorse it but some people EARN it. And in the case of the moronic media people, either they're just smart ones, trying to step on some coach's back or cariocas with a mic, I find no guilty at all. They want to tease a guy until he breaks and they'll brag about it. And if the teased one wants to argue using the voice of reason, the answer is simple: 'the football needs the media'.

BULLCRAP. The media needs football. I'm done with snob journalists who really think they can control facts and football like puppet masters. The fans DON'T WANT YOUR OPINION, MORONS. They want dribbling, efforts, endurance, beauty, flair, goals. This is what the guardless bloody consumers of the poop you come up with really need, not your poop at all.

I'll support and admire Dunga forever even if he loses this Cup. This is exactly what a coach should do: competence, hard work and a unshakeable stand. No one can move him because he knows what he does and he truly believes it.

It's a time of fake gentlemanship, of 'sensitivity'. We're living and watching times of sweet arrogance, disguised among words and paragraphs. Passive agressive atitudes which can't be answered in the same level because in that case, and solely that case, it's unpolite.

I'm not gaucho, (from Brazil's south region) but I totally understand what these guys go through. And as for Scolari, people pick on Dunga for that reason, they're both Gauchos - specially cariocas do that. They hate the gaucho's pride about his land and his way of playing football - much more focused on marking and tactics rather than improvise and skill.

Now can a journalist bring it in his pocked when he interviews someone? Can he carry his 'clubism' when he's talking about football in general, when he gives opinions? Since a 'media professional' has his own space - facebooks, blogs, tweeters - is he allowed to talk about football in the way he wants, even with partiality? If he does, do you think that isn't dangerous to the point of influencing his opinions when the context allows no partiality at all? I'll let you say.
I've bolded above the ironic part of your post. I agree with your general sentiments; it's great to see a coach that stands up to the media and sticks to his own convictions; but my complaint with Dunga, and I think the complaint of many, is that he doesn't care for dribbling, beauty, flair, etc. He subscribes to a very conservative approach which is almost a crime for a Brazilian team.

Granted, this brand of football seems to work. Play defensively, conservatively, and the goals will come anyways when you're Brazil. If I were Brazilian, I would love this team. Since I'm not Brazilian, I'm disappointed because I want to watch a spectacle and am not invested in the success of the team.

If I were an Italian fan i would hate watching my NT. There's so little to be proud of on the pitch, even when they succeed.
 

tinytim

Youth Team
Xifio;2893934 said:
the media is ruthless and dirty, and they do what they need to to spin their stories and sell their publications ... but that shouldn't distract from the fact that Dunga has taken a team that is supposed to be about making football an art, and turned them into a machine-like winning unit ...

both in '98 and in 2002 you guys managed to bring out the flair from the flair players ... what of that?

it is good that you admired Dunga's unshakable nature ... but what is a virtue of being "unshakable" on one side, is considered a vice of being "stubborn" on the flip side ... football is about entertainment ... if a team wins with efficiency -- as Greece did, for example, in 2004 -- it gives me no reason to watch football, because the skill and the flair is sacrificed for the result ... even this Brazilian squad's natural flair and talent ekes out once in a while; but the tactic is very clear ... it is almost ugly ... if that entertains you, so be it ... and if football is not about entertainment for you, and it is "something more", then you've got some priorities to sort out ...

regardless, Dunga's team's style has destroyed the image of Brazilian ginga that so many people around the world loved to watch ... for that, as far as I am concerned, he cannot be forgiven ...

I don't agree. Football has changed and allow me to be quite daring here - blame it on the europeans. So you have to dance for the music. Most of teams even the small ones can defend, they're blocks and a team based on or too confident on flair will fall. Take Santos for instance. They started this year with Robinho, Ganso, Neymar. The classic 4-4-2 and one of the 'volantes', the defensive midfielder wasn't defensive at all. So, they truly attacked, sometimes with 7 players, when the side defenders went up to support attack. Fine, beautiful. They scored 10-0 against a small team, 6x3, 9x1...historical, Pele's era scores.

One of their last matches before brazilian league was interrupted for the World Cup was at Corinthians' home, 4-2. And Corinthians didn't score more because well, there's still some necessary tune to be done. Otherwise, the historical 7-1 from 2005 would happen again.

Corinthians played defensively, placing the whole strategy on counter attack. And the so called best team of Brazil was owned. End of story.

In the late Cups, as you put, Brazil had flair on his side and in his hand and so what? The team played crap in 2006 and it only got to 98's final because individually the team was very good or like I use to say jokingly, 'less bad' than the others.

I understand that in football you gotta have the ball if you wanna show individual skills. And if you wanna have the ball you must know how to play defensively, specially these days.

Now do you want flair from this team? Damn, look at the three goals scored yesterday. Fabiano's first, a back heel, a 1-2 touch from Robinho to Kaka, he dribles, Fabiano scapes through the space left by Kolo and it's a goal. The second one, handball aside, was genious. And the third one was basically all individual since Kaká built the play. Now tell me if I. Coast was able to build more than 2 truly dangerous plays against Brazil's defense. No. Just no.

And as for 2002, no, it wasn't a flairy team. Actually it was pretty close to this one in terms of 'ugliness'. It just wasn't ugly at all because Scolari was able to start the team with Ronaldinho who grew during the Cup and this is why you think 2002's Brazil was so opposite to Dunga's, because of Ronaldinho.
 

Daniel David

Youth Team
tinytim;2893853 said:
Let me explain this: in '94, Brazil won a flawless World Cup, no loss. Not a charming football, it's true, but that team had its moments of true brazilian art. After 24 years, Brazil won. And Parreira was crucified, because according to the 'expertised' he hadn't balls to come up with a more offensive squad.

12 years later, he had that much more offensive squad. And Brazil was easy prey to France. Result? The same bastards who criticized him after putting Brazil in the top rank of WC trophies asking for a more 'eye candy' team, now crushed him for giving them what they wanted all alon.

I am too young to remember how the media reacted in '94, but the Brazilian squad in 2006 was a disgrace in so many ways. Certainly we didn't lost merely because Parreira gave The Media (TM) what it wanted.

tinytim;2893853 said:
And last night, in the press conference aftter the match against The Drogba's Friends Team, he swore - audible - on a journalist who apparently disagreed about something he said, nodding, as someone here pointed out.

The question is: is swearing at someone unable to reply over the audio system of the conference room acceptable under any circumstances at all?

tinytim;2893853 said:
Let me tell about this journalist. He's a pain the ass. His name is Alex Escobar, he's from Rio de Janeiro where every goddamn person there thinks that knows EVERYTHING about football. About playing, about coaching, EVERYTHING.

Rio/São Paulo (carioca/paulista) rivalry is so old, I thought we were past it circa 2010.

tinytim;2893853 said:
And I'm probably not wrong but there are no 'cariocas' (people from Rio) in Dunga's team.

In an era in which 90% of the team plays abroad what difference would it make anyway?

tinytim;2893853 said:
He has severely and frequently beated up Dunga in his blog and column since he decided for the 23 to Africa.

His blog, his column. Is criticism now a crime?

tinytim;2893853 said:
I'm not a violence appreciator or endorse it but some people EARN it. And in the case of the moronic media people, either they're just smart ones, trying to step on some coach's back or cariocas with a mic, I find no guilty at all. They want to tease a guy until he breaks and they'll brag about it. And if the teased one wants to argue using the voice of reason, the answer is simple: 'the football needs the media'.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

tinytim;2893853 said:
Now can a journalist bring it in his pocked when he interviews someone? Can he carry his 'clubism' when he's talking about football in general, when he gives opinions? Since a 'media professional' has his own space - facebooks, blogs, tweeters - is he allowed to talk about football in the way he wants, even with partiality? If he does, do you think that isn't dangerous to the point of influencing his opinions when the context allows no partiality at all? I'll let you say.

While journalists certainly must not slander or spread false information, they should be free to state whatever opinions they feel like. If these opinions are bulls**t (and in Football journalism they very often are) we should use our reasoning to filter and reject them. There is no such a thing like "impartial opinions", otherwise what would be the point of having an opinion at all?

The bottom line about Dunga is that he has gone neurotic and paranoid. tinytim brought comparisons with Scolari, but he was never this bitter and ruthless. Blame it on the years of whining and criticism Dunga had to endure if you want, but nothing justifies swearing at a journalist - who wasn't talking to him in first place! - during a World Cup post-match press conference. I appreciate a number of the things Dunga did for the NT (mainly cleaning the mess of the second Parreira era), but self-control and psychological balance are desirable attributes of a leader as well.

---

Tiago_10;2893898 said:
All joking aside, the thread title somehow suggests it's Brazil's right to win the Cup? If Dunga loses the cup? What, now you're in the final already?

Brazil has lots of quality in their team, as usual, but it's not like everyone is expecting you to win every tournament. Teams like Argentina, Germany, Netherlands, Spain are put aside so easily?

One of the main faults of the Brazilian mindset when it comes to football. And that includes The Media (TM), too...

Xifio;2893934 said:
... but that shouldn't distract from the fact that Dunga has taken a team that is supposed to be about making football an art, and turned them into a machine-like winning unit ...

both in '98 and in 2002 you guys managed to bring out the flair from the flair players ... what of that?

The current Brazilian NT has a major problem: lack of midfield creativity. As of now the rest of the team looks strong enough that it does not seem to be an actual issue, but it is not proven at all that it won't be our falling when we meet a truly powerful team in strong form - specially one with a strong defence.
 

tinytim

Youth Team
Sevillista;2893959 said:
I've bolded above the ironic part of your post. I agree with your general sentiments; it's great to see a coach that stands up to the media and sticks to his own convictions; but my complaint with Dunga, and I think the complaint of many, is that he doesn't care for dribbling, beauty, flair, etc. He subscribes to a very conservative approach which is almost a crime for a Brazilian team.

Granted, this brand of football seems to work. Play defensively, conservatively, and the goals will come anyways when you're Brazil. If I were Brazilian, I would love this team. Since I'm not Brazilian, I'm disappointed because I want to watch a spectacle and am not invested in the success of the team.

If I were an Italian fan i would hate watching my NT. There's so little to be proud of on the pitch, even when they succeed.

Sevillista, as brazilians we're not deluded with the perspective of watching a new Brazil '70 or '82. Forget it, it won't happen.

Back in '70 Brazil had 2 months of prep. In 82, most of the team, if not everyone, played in Brazil, so the clubs 'gently' conceded their plays for the time Tele Santana found necessary to train them.

It's different now. So, considering the resources available, we have a fine team. I just don't agree with some few names such as Kleberson or Josue, but Dunga is a serious man and a quite coherent coach. It would be shocking it he acted otherwise. I'd like to see Ronaldinho and Cristian from Fener instead, but these are the guys he has been counting on for all those 3,5 years...so discarding one of them in the last minute would be unfair, unprofessional and many other 'uns'.
 

tinytim

Youth Team
Gene Reginato;2893955 said:
Dunga lost it. His attitudes are under investigation. FIFA may punish him for his swear words and personal attacks against Drogba, Escobar and the referee.

There is precedent, Maradona was fined for similar things.

Gene, words are like arrows.
 

MelvinSmiley

Reserve Team
Even if he loses the cup......thats funny. Normal people would say even if he wont win it. According to you saying something like that, i bet you´ll be the first in here, who will swear Dunga down "if he loses the cup".
If he loses the cup.....i still dont get it....IF HE LOSES THE CUP!!!!!!
 

Kibe Kru

Starting XI
I don't agree with tinytim's views on Dunga, and being proud of what he did to the journalist, but don't blame him on the "even if he loses the cup" sentence. In Brazilian Portuguese, if you don't win it, you lose it. If he said "even if he doesn't win it" it'd sound/look better in English, but it's not different at all for Brazilians.
 

tinytim

Youth Team
MelvinSmiley;2894031 said:
Even if he loses the cup......thats funny. Normal people would say even if he wont win it. According to you saying something like that, i bet you´ll be the first in here, who will swear Dunga down "if he loses the cup".
If he loses the cup.....i still dont get it....IF HE LOSES THE CUP!!!!!!

Melvin, it was a bad expression. I wrote like I'd say it in portuguese. In english, yes, someone would say if he doesn't win, but in portuguese we...'reverse' the ideas, you know? So, if he loses - which means the same that if he doesn't win - I'll like him anyway. It was a bad semantics transition.

Kibe Kru;2894059 said:
I don't agree with tinytim's views on Dunga, and being proud of what he did to the journalist, but don't blame him on the "even if he loses the cup" sentence. In Brazilian Portuguese, if you don't win it, you lose it. If he said "even if he doesn't win it" it'd sound/look better in English, but it's not different at all for Brazilians.

Echo.

And I didn't write that I liked him doing what he did. I just said that it was about time for a football professional, a guy who lived the game and is very competent have balls to put certain individuals who believe know it better than him in their deserved place. Internet, media...there's too much to give to these people and they can't deal with so much power and this is why they bloat up with crap all the time lately. I hope Dunga wins and perhaps we might see a new perspective on the relationship media-footballers-fans. They must learn.
 


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