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IN 20 YEARS THE UNITED STATES WILL HAVE THE GREATEST FOOTBALL LEAGUE IN HISTORY

J

jsbach

Guest
Amen to that one, Goodsport!

Edoardo, you make my points for me.

And those losses to the US hobbyists are becoming more and more common. If the US will never be able to reach that "football" level you speak of, then how is it that the USA is able to now play competitively with most teams in the world? There are a few world powers that I'd say still dominate, but even they have experienced losing to a bunch of hobbyists.

Tell me something... when Brazil has lost in the World Cup, I've read stories of people killing themselves in despair. How many of those Brazilian players would kill themselves when something bad happens to an average Brazilian citizen? NONE.
 
R

Russian Rocket

Guest
mmmm....
In MLS Salaries are very poor; it all depends on attendancies, and, as you all know, attendancies are poor in US. The only teams that gather some public are NE Revolution, San Jose Clash, DC United
 
J

jsbach

Guest
Columbus, Chicago and LA have done ok too.

The Florida teams, Dallas, and KC are struggling to get attendance. Of course the Metrostars are the biggest failure in every regard.

-Failure in New York...very unfortunate for the league in many ways.
 

FIFAfreak

Youth Team
Well I have to say some of the replies here are as about as ignorant as some Americans are toward football. The MLS or the U.S. national team will not be the best in the world and I wouldn't ever expect (or need) it to be. But that does not mean that we couldn't rise to a very respectable level WHICH we already are doing. If Brazil, Italy, England and anybody else were beating the U.S. 10-0 then maybe you could say we are a crap team. We do not suck... We're actually better than many other countries who have been playing much longer. That says a lot about Americans...we are constantly striving for excellence. That doesn't mean we have to be #1 rah! rah! (it gets boring being #1 at everything anyway haha) competing and making life difficult for you will be much more fun! You people forget the fact that even though football may not be #1 in the U.S. our population is so big that even if a fraction of it follows the sport, THAT is comparable to many other smaller countries in the world.

The World Cup did wonders here and so is the MLS. The best thing for the MLS is foreign influence whether it's coaches and/or players. Look at your own leagues, there are several foreign players in them, duh! As the MLS gains more influence it will progress as a football league. As it builds on it's history it will create tradition. That is what is lacking compared to leagues around the world like the English Premier, Serie A etc. etc. It is one of the things I have always admired about football (especially European) is the long tradition of the clubs and the cups. You can't build that overnight. But we're working on it. (Go D.C. United!) They're even picking names like traditional clubs. Relegation & promotion may not be far off as the A-League could be used as such. And as the league grows and expands then you will have more regional rivalries. Again foreign influence will go along way toward shaping this league (or a few fans like myself!).

Speaking of foreign influence you people forget how you are infiltrating our country with growing numbers (political immigration issue being put aside here!) The latin population alone will be the biggest in the near future. This can only do wonders for the MLS. There will be more fans who are passionate about the sport. The crowds at D.C. United and a few other clubs are really into it with chants. Now we're not out of control like you Italians and S. Americans but that is because we are more civilized when it comes to sports. (if you ever put as much passion into your country as you do into football maybe you will rise to our level haha, football= downfall of British Empire, something to think about!).

You also ignore the fact that football has had a strong growing grassroots level for the last 20 years. That's the only way we could have put a team with players like Harkes, Jones, Lalas and others up against the likes of Brazil with 1-0 results. Not too shabby for so called beginners. England created the game and LOOK where they are now. Not even a tier 1 nation. Parity in football is not far off as more of the smaller (footballing) nations build their leagues and develop their players. The fact that anyone could beat anyone will be more prevalent. Who would have thought until recently that Croatia (not Holland, Italy, England or Argentina) could finish third in the World Cup.

Now as far as money goes that will not have an effect until the MLS has enough of a following and some tradition behind it. I personally think Europe is where it's at if you're a player and then S. America. That's where I would want to play and that won't change for some time.

Fan interest here is growing. More people know about football here than you ignorant fools would care to acknowledge. Football coverage is on t.v. more than it ever was before. It could be better yes...give it time. Some people even goto pubs here to watch it. The Premier League is the most popular here but Germany, Italy and even Chile get coverage here too. The passion is growing, slowly, but it is growing. The interest is here it will just take some time so be wary, we might sneak up on you!

Is it true that fans in other countries fast and don't stuff their faces at matches? I doubt it! I saw plenty of people at the Premier League games I went to with fish and chips in one hand and bangers in the other (not too mention all the pints consumed before hand, Guinness please!) And I bet they're eating some kind of stuffed tortilla by the thousand (or whatever you eat down there) in S. America! Haha, what idiotic comments you children come up with.

Oh yeah, there is the World (American) Football League in Europe which is a minor league for the NFL (we KNOW you like the cheerleaders!)...so that makes the Superbowl winner a World Champion (in THIS sport) so as not to be confused with the collegiate winner known as the National Champion. How little you know silly silly person...


 
J

jsbach

Guest
While I don't always agree with the tone of your post, FIFAfreak, I do agree with many of your points.

...Except the NFL one was a big stretch.

NFL Europe is basically a second level spring scouting combine for the NFL. The NFL runs it, and most of the players are American. The players seem to be mostly players struggling to try to get into the NFL, or back into it.

The fan base in Europe is tiny or nonexistant. I have watched a few games at times, and frankly I find it sad. The NFL is trying to shove itself down the throats of people that really couldn't care less if it existed or not. It's embarrassing.

American Football is a sport I enjoy at times, but it is not and never will be a "world" sport.
 

FIFAfreak

Youth Team
I don't think the NFL thing is too much of a stretch. I think you can call the Superbowl Champion the World Champion because it is the best league in the world that plays THAT PARTICULAR sport. That was my point.(I forgot the Canadians too, but that is another minor league to the NFL as well!
)

We do the same in baseball, why? Because Major League Baseball is the TOP level of that sport in the world. If you are player, no matter what your nationality (Japanese, Cuban, Australian etc.) that is where you want to be playing (for all the same reasons a football player would want to play in Europe, the money is there, the fanbase is there, the tradition is there). Most people here only think of them as Superbowl Champs anyway. "World Champs" is usually a creation of people trying to sell t-shirts.

I agree with your observation of the World League. I guess they assume it will catch on and it has to some degree, but it is still a bad idea. It's just a way of allowing younger talent (just out of college) to develop in a different environment. Europe as an incentive perhaps, I don't know...
 
G

Goodsport

Guest
FIFAfreak,

Perhaps if those NFL Europe teams entered the NFL and competed for the Super Bowl trophy with the current NFL teams, then I still doubt that the Super Bowl winner could honestly be called "World Champion"... but they could accurately be called "North-Atlantic Champion".


As for everything else you wrote - you are absolutely right on the money! Excellent post!!!



-G




[This message has been edited by Goodsport (edited 12-08-1999).]
 
E

Edoardo

Guest
Nope i think your wrong there...to be a world champion you must beat teams from other countries in the whole f'ing world...not states in your own country...in a top european league like serie A (where the majority of the bad ass footballers play)if a team wins they dont consider them selves World Champions as this only occurs in the U.S because people like you belive it ...silly silly freak...On another note i saw this comic strip in the newspaper that had u.s fans cheering the mens team and they had a sign that read "you play like a girl" and one person was telling another "remember when this used to be an insult" so what do you american fans think of this ...
 
L

Lord

Guest
So now the winners of the Italian League is the best team in the World, because it is the better league? (Just an example)
Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

You call it World Champions because for many americans, USA is the world.
 
J

jsbach

Guest
"Lord"...For many Americans, yes... but not this one.

Edoardo, I'm very proud of our US women's team. They are pioneers in helping to make soccer/football truly a complete "world" sport. Men are only half the population, you know.

I think what they did this summer was wonderful for the sport worldwide, and good for the growth of soccer in the US... for men and women. I just wish US Soccer had had it's act together as a whole! Right after the Women's World Cup, the men's team played quite respectably in their summer tournament but because of idiotic TV contracts, none of the matches were carried nationally on TV. Commercially, a big opportunity was missed. MLS dropped the ball a bit too, in my opinion.

If playing like a girl means to play with heart and determination... to play without diving and flopping at the slightest touch...(The men's teams could learn a lot about sportsmanship from the women.) to be champions.... I'd say it's a compliment.
 

FIFAfreak

Youth Team
Obviously my point is being lost on you guys. First you could ONLY say the winner of Italian League is the best in the world IF it was the ONLY league in the world playing football...it is clearly not the only one or the best, there is also the English Premier, Bundesliga, La Liga, Brazilian etc. (That's why a World Club Cup would be a great tournament)

Now if there was another (american football) league in the world on the SAME LEVEL as the NFL (which there isn't) then it would be stupid to call the Super Bowl winner a world champion because you would need a playoff between the two to decide. Understand now? Probably not...

Just keep up the diving and flopping in football (you ought to be ashamed of yourselves) if that's what makes you the best then you're out of your mind. Serie A owes as much to import players as any other league, the Italian national team has sunk just like the English (so what does that say about your homegrown talent eh) And the rest of Serie A from Perugia on down to Cagliari is total crap. Serie A is great to watch (I wouldn't mind seeing more of it here) when the top 7 or 8 teams play because that's where the money is and hence some of the best players.
 
P

PolishPower

Guest
I'll say this: when professional hockey started out some 100 years ago that league was the best in the world and there was really no competition, yet the champion won the trophy whose name was Stanley Cup, not World Cup. And players when they win the Cup don't wave their finger and yell "We are the world champions!" But then it is more of a Canadian league...

So yes, I think the true reason for this World Series, World Champions syndrome is that America in general, and especially the sports press here looks as sports in USA as all there is in the world thats worth watching. Just look at what ESPN calls athletes of the century! They are all from USA(no im not exaggerating 100 percent USA citizens, plus a horse!)
 
J

jsbach

Guest
FIFAfreak, I get your point. I just think it's kind of a moot point. If you want to form a National Tidleywinks League, and no one else in the world cares enough to have a tidleywinks league you can call yourself the World Champion if you like.

And although I'm an American, I do find some truth to the arguments on here about American attitudes. MLB's championship is the "World Series"... the Yankees call themselves the World Champions. There actually are baseball leagues around the world. I don't know if you noticed, but the last few times MLB has sent "All-star" teams to play a series against the Japanese All-star teams, the results have been mixed, ...I think even leaning toward the Japanese.

Australia won a recent youth international tournament, over the USA.

Would the New York Yankees beat the Japanese League champions? Perhaps... but the point is they haven't.
*********************************
PolishPower,
I wouldn't exactly call ESPN the pinnacle of sports journalism!
ESPN has only been around for about 20 years. What the heck do they know about the century?
They are likely to pick the 100 athletes that most interest their target demographic audience. American males. It's about ratings, selling commercials, and money.


 
F

Fat Bhoy Tim

Guest
The difference between the US and the "normal world" is that in the U.S it's a buisness venture
anywhere else the motto "Football is more than life or death,it's a big piss-up as well" would be pretty accurate
 
E

Edoardo

Guest
fifafreak, Italia is a three time world champ and have been second place at least twice...as of lately there still a good team in 94 they got to the final with an injured team and in 98 they lost in penaltys to the home team wich is always the favorite..how coud you say their not doing good ...im not going to argue with you about serie A because i have come to the conclusion that you are an a-hole and are just trying o piss people off...before i forget there are baseball leagues in the carabeean and in mexico and no matter how much they $uck this doesnt mean that they may "never" beat a u.s team and the u.s team has to beat them to prove themselves and now a days guess where a lot of the mlb talent is coming from....
 
J

jsbach

Guest
FIFAfreak... One more thing...
In your own words, you refer to the NCAA Football Champions as "National" champions...
Using your own logic, since the NCAA Champs are the only top level collegiate American football champs anywhere in the world, shouldn't you be lobbying the world press to start calling them the "College WORLD Champions" in the future? I mean, the NCAA baseball Champions are... they win the "College World Series." :-)

Give it up.
It's a stupid argument.
We all come up with dumb ones sometimes...
even someone with your obviously higher intellect.
;-)
 

FIFAfreak

Youth Team
It is a moot point JS because personally I could care less about the NFL. It's very boring and has no where near the passion or excitement that the collegiate level has (similiar to soccer). I would agree with you about baseball. It is more of a world sport NOW so still calling it the World Series might not be the best idea. But again when baseball started (back in the 1800s) we were the only ones playing it until recently.

Polish I don't disagree with what you said but that reminds me of the old competitor league to the NHL. What did they call themselves? The World Hockey League (which it wasn't). Why? Because National was already taken and World sounds better... it comes down to marketing in the end. The NHL however is not as Canadian as you think (probably more Russian these days!) But I know what you were trying to say. The thing about hockey is that it always has been a world sport and there is a world championship. The NHL just happens to be the best pro league in the world so all the players flock to it.

No Edoardo, I am not here just to piss people off. Take a look at some of the idiotic and ignorant posts from others above, that's what they're here for. I guess sometimes the truth (about Serie A) hurts doesn't it? My point about the Italian national team is that they haven't performed that great in the 90's (funny how you didn't mention the Euro tournaments). Maybe they will fare better this year.

Now about your baseball comment, sure there is plenty of talent coming from other parts of the world and maybe the Yankees (even though I hate them) should play other teams around the world "to prove themselves" I'll agree with you there. We could also take your statement about baseball and reverse it for us U.S. football fans:

"there is a football league (& team) in the U.S. and no matter how much they $uck this doesnt mean that they may "never" beat a foreign team and the foreign has to beat them to prove themselves"

Thanks for the good point.
 
J

jsbach

Guest
You're point is lacking clarity on that last bit.

"there is a football league (& team) in the U.S. and no matter how much they $uck this doesnt mean
that they may "never" beat a foreign team and the foreign has to beat them to prove themselves"

I'm assuming you mean soccer...
It gets confusing to say US football when you were just talking about the NFL. (If you are still talking about the NFL then you are contradicting your own earlier statements, but I don't think you are.)

It appears that you are extrapolating Edoardo's logic from baseball to the MLS teams... and the fact that not too many matches with European powers are taking place...
but this doesn't work exactly because no one is referring to DC United as "World Champions." Understand? The NY Yankees call themselves "World Champions." You could MAYBE make a poor argument that Man U shouldn't be called World Champions after winning that Cup title in Tokyo... but I haven't heard them calling themselves that.

Can the future winner of the World Club Cup consider themselves champions over the MLS? I'd say yes. -Because the MLS tried to qualify and unfortunately lost out in the semis to a Mexican squad... but they had their chance.

 

FIFAfreak

Youth Team
Yes JS it does get confusing but I chose not to "offend" anyone by using soccer except once for clarification


In that last statement I was talking about soccer. And yes D.C. United does not call themselves World Champs, that's obvious and wasn't the focus. My point is that a lot of the people who posted here would easily write off the U.S. national team and league as not being very good. That's obviously not the case. The same arrogance the foreign posts complain about regarding other American sports is just as present in their attitude toward American soccer. That's where this logic backfired ("no matter how much they $uck this doesn't mean that they may "never" beat a foreign team) because you could say that about the MLS or the U.S. national team. Yes D.C. United had their chance and lost to a Mexican team, fair enough. (and you think Man U fans aren't claiming to be the best in the world? HA HA, wakeup call!, wait until January)

But you could also say the same about Serie A fans yapping constantly about how their league is the "best" in the world. If that's the case then (insert your favorite top 7 Serie A team here) is the best club team in the world. Well, not so eh? They didn't qualify for the World Club Championship either and I guess Italians will be screaming bloody hell because they won't have a team in Brazil this January. Too bad.

In the end if everyone is so passionate about football (soccer) then they really shouldn't care who uses the word "world" for their own sports (I'll say it again - Marketing, i.e. selling t-shirts etc.) It may be wrong but I could care less if the Italians or anybody else has a tiddleywink world champion
 
J

jsbach

Guest
I think we are pretty much in agreement now...
how boring! :-)

Of course another problem with ALL these international club championships, including the Champions League, is that they are all taken from the past year's champions.
The champions last year aren't always the best the next.
Prime examples would be Real Madrid... hardly showing the best form in Spain right now!
or AC Milan and Fiorentina who are 6th and 8th in Serie A at the moment.

I'm going to pick on your criticizing the depth of Serie A... you mentioned that there are about 7 top Serie A clubs and that the rest are "total crap."

Well, if you look at the table, you'll find that Bari is currently ahead of Fiorentina...
and Perugia, Udinese, Bologna, and Lecce and even Torino are all within 3 points of Fiorentina. These teams are no worse than the Wimbledon, Southampton, Bradford City, Coventry City, Middlesboro, Aston Villa, etc's of the Premiership.
I would guess that you, like me, get most of your news information off of English language sites... (American or UK) and therefore the English League just gets more coverage than the Italian.

 


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