Juventus F.C. [2015-2016]

[Mandieta6]

Do you want him to score 25 goals when he's 40?

If Madrid overpaid for Bale than the sum for Pogba would go down as well. Perhaps not at the same rate, considering the British tax, but still.

Right now I'd say Hazard and Pogba would go for around the same price, Hazard would probably fetch more because he plays in a more valued position. While I would not sell Hazard for less than Messi plus cash, I'm not sure he'd go for more than Bale money. And right now he's the closest thing to Bale there is.

 

[Mus]

Do you want him to score 25 goals when he's 40?

If Madrid overpaid for Bale than the sum for Pogba would go down as well. Perhaps not at the same rate, considering the British tax, but still.

Right now I'd say Hazard and Pogba would go for around the same price, Hazard would probably fetch more because he plays in a more valued position. While I would not sell Hazard for less than Messi plus cash, I'm not sure he'd go for more than Bale money. And right now he's the closest thing to Bale there is.

I definitely wouldn't take Hazard in a straight swap with Pogba that's for sure

 

[Xifio]

Pogba shines in Serie A.

you realize that, if Italy merely matches England in European coefficients this year, Serie A leapfrogs the Prem [into the third spot]?

 

[Mandieta6]

I definitely wouldn't take Hazard in a straight swap with Pogba that's for sure

I wouldn't take Pogba for Hazard in a straight swap either. I wonder if there's a pattern there.

 

[Mandieta6]

you realize that, if Italy merely matches England in European coefficients this year, Serie A leapfrogs the Prem into the third spot?

Again, your logic is faulty. Coefficients are entirely based on performance in Europe, and include both Europa and CL. The English teams have failed to perform in Europe, but I don't think there's even much case in arguing that the overall quality of the league is much better than Italy. The lower half of the Prem table is probably the best out of all the major leagues, which makes the overall level of the league higher. Top sides drop more points, need to focus more energy on the league, this makes it harder for them to keep up in Europe. Juventus, Barca, Madrid and Bayern can coast through their league. In Europa, English sides have failed to take it seriously for years and most teams would rather avoid it altogether.

Sure, Italy would technically be a better league if that happens but, as the name implies, it's a technicality. And even by this logic they are still inferior to the Prem. They are much more inferior to the Prem Bale played in.

Don't worry about coefficients. We're winning the CL this year.

 

[Xifio]

Again, your logic is faulty.

dude, with your refusal to watch Pogba for most of the season, faulty logic is your department in this whole discussion ...

Top sides drop more points, need to focus more energy on the league, this makes it harder for them to keep up in Europe. Juventus, Barca, Madrid and Bayern can coast through their league. In Europa, English sides have failed to take it seriously for years and most teams would rather avoid it altogether.

perfect ... I look forward to seeing 4 Champions League spots for Serie A once more ... and the Prem teams can enjoy tiring each other out in the comfort of the British isles ...

 

[Mandieta6]

That's my main fear, I think it's entirely possible that this might happen and there's really no way to avoid it other than Prem teams putting more value on Europe.

Yet again, rather than argue the points you resort to ad hominem and basically ignored the entire post to repeat what you've already said, and which I have already addressed. Your statement is misleading. You keep using 'refuse' as if I have a vendetta against Pogba, when it is simply that I have no interest in watching Serie A matches that aren't interesting, which, for me, is usually the case. When Juve face a top side, particularly in Europe, I watch. As I've said, I've seen Pogba play plenty of times and just because someone else watched him play 50 times does not make their evaluation more accurate, not necessarily. With Juve fans who have been dreading the day Pogba would be sold from the moment he stepped off the plane, it is hardly surprising that they overvalue his monetary worth.

If you have an actual point to make, feel free to do so. If you're just going to repeat the same point over and over in the hope that repetition will sway the common reader and aid you in the draft voting, then let me know so I won't waste my time with you.

 

[Xifio]

I keep using 'refuse' because it's accurate in describing your approach ...

by your definition of "overvalued", Pogba's been "overvalued" by Juve for a long time ... yet you choose this moment to suddenly voice your half-baked opinion?

as has been clear to see with your responses to Mus, Andrei, and myself, there's no point in offering further rebuttals -- you refuse to watch him live for most of the season, you refuse to watch highlights of his play, and you refuse to heed anything said about him by the people who do watch him week in, week out ...

everyone who's watched him play regularly is making "actual" points here ... the only person speculating is you ... oh, wait, I forgot: well-informed opinions do "not necessarily" mean anything, so no one but you is actually saying anything ...

 

[Mus]

I think it's just down to our relevant biases...time will tell what price he goes for, I won't be happy if the world record isn't broken (unless there's a player exchange e.g. Verratti or Oscar)

 

[ShiftyPowers]

Can't both Pogba being great and Serie A being weak be true?

 

[Mandieta6]

I keep using 'refuse' because it's accurate in describing your approach ...

by your definition of "overvalued", Pogba's been "overvalued" by Juve for a long time ... yet you choose this moment to suddenly voice your half-baked opinion?

as has been clear to see with your responses to Mus, Andrei, and myself, there's no point in offering further rebuttals -- you refuse to watch him live for most of the season, you refuse to watch highlights of his play, and you refuse to heed anything said about him by the people who do watch him week in, week out ...

everyone who's watched him play regularly is making "actual" points here ... the only person speculating is you ... oh, wait, I forgot: well-informed opinions do "not necessarily" mean anything, so no one but you is actually saying anything ...

Oh I get it now. You think I'm just saying this because you picked Pogba. Right, love the paranoia. Anyway, to nip that in the bud right now:

Here's me about Pogba being more about potential than current ability a draft or two ago:

I don't get why The Dragons are doing so well. Ribery and Ramires are awesome, and so is Pogba but he is not quite there YET. Rooney is obviously a great player but has been off-form. Lennon is subpar as is the entire defense IMO.

And here's me, on different occasions, talking about my percieved price for him:

I think Juventus would let him go for 50.

60m for Pogba

These threads re closed so I can't quote directly. You can check the link instead.

If Juve value Ramires at 20m, meaning Chelsea would probably seek closer to 25, and Pogba will probably wind up leaving for around 50, then Ramires plus 20 is a perfectly valid offer. You can laugh at 40-50m bids, but your board certainly won't.

And here's me having this exact same argument with Rocky:

Seeing what Bale went for, if Pogba goes for anything less than 200 million Euros I'll blow a gasket. And no, I ain't being unreasonable with the demands cus he's got twice the ceiling Bale's got plus the market can bear it.

Bale is an attacker. Your 4 best mids won't go for 200m, let alone one.

Pogba will go for 50-60 if anyone is impatient, or 20-40 in the final 2 years of his contract when he asks tto go to a proper league (or even on a Bosman).

I certainly wouldn't mind giving you 40m for him.

Pogba plays a harder position than the poor man's CRonaldo. He's also more talented technically so yes I believe he is worth my asking price and I don't care how unpopular that viewpoint may be. If I was negotiating with a team loaded with cash that is what I would start the bidding at. I'd feel ripped off as a negotiator if I let Pogba go for the price you suggested. 50-60 mil for a once in a lifetime CM talent? In this inflated market?

GTFO.

Your opinion is irrelevant. CMs don't go for the prices attackers do. You will not get Bale money for him. If he's happy to stay (he won't be), you might not sell him, but if youbget a fee for him it won't be Bale sums.

It's not that CMs shouldn't go for attacker money, it's simply that they don't. CMs play deeper and therefor score less, assist less, get less attention, show up less on highlights, are less flashy, sell less shirts and are therefor worth less to a prospective buyer. Prices aren't set by actual value but by percieved value. Pogba's percieved value isn't anywhere near Bale's, even if he is more talented.

You don't believe me? Look at the top transfers per position: In 2013, Gotze went for 37m (transfer clause), Ozil, James, Neymar went for 50m, 45m, and 57m, and Higuain (!), Cavani and Falcao went for 39m, 64m and 60m. In 2012, Lucas Moura for a higher price than Modric. Now, the top selling CMs are Fernandinho, Modric, Witsel, Illaramendi, Fabregas and Maritnez, who all went for the 30-40m bracket. If I'm not mistaken, 3 of them went for their transfer clause, while one was sold by Levy, one of the toughest negotiators in football. This same negotiator managed to get 100m for Bale. At the list of top world transfer sums, the first comparable player to Pogba in terms of position is Veron who sits 25th.

While the market trend means that players will gradually cost more, CMs will not command higher sums than attackers (in terms of comparable ability). You can demand 200m all you want, you will not get that. You being a fan will matter for shit when Pogba asks for a transfer and the board faces losing him for nothing or getting a respectable, market-appropriate sum. You know what, you might even get 50m, but anything in the triple digits is a fantasy. You are simply building yourself up for disappointment.

Before someone jumps on that. Note the 'if'. I wasn't saying Pogba was more talented. I was saying it didn't matter even if he was.

That should put that to rest. Added to the fact that I didn't start by bashing Pogba but by talking about the price and the discussion evolved from there. Get your head out of your ass.

To get back to the rest of your post: 'refuse' is accurate in terms of denotation, not connotation. You don't refuse to donate all your salary to charity do you? You just don't do it. You're trying to make me sound like a willful ignorant and that's up to you to have that perception, but it's not going to be accurate no matter how much you repeat it.

I did watch the highlights. Please instruct me as to their relevance in this discussion.

I do listen to people's comments, which is why I also buy into the hype and want him at Chelsea. But, again, the hype means that, psychologically speaking, people are more likely to fixate on the things that corroborate their view. There's also the fact that fans always overrate their players and Andrei and Mus have been quoted as saying that they wouldn't even consider Pogba for 100m (and I'm going for the lowest number possible). You can get a good enough image of a player with 10 matches, if you really need more than that, you don't know how to look. More can help you make more detailed comparisons and get a more precise picture, but 10 (in a year, more in his career) is enough to get a ballpark for value and judge whether he's a Top 5 players. I watch Chelsea matches every week and will presume to know more than anyone on this forum about the players but that doesn't mean Mus or Andrei or yourself will have a worse perspective on a player's price range. Especially given all of the above.

I've said all this, and you still refuse to answer any of the point, hoping that if you insist on one, already debunked, argument long enough you will be right. I had forgotten how pathetically you argue. When you mature out of the ad hominem phase, let me know. I do laugh at your 'further rebuttals' line because you have failed to offer any.

You have not made any points, nor even any speculations. Again, you try to twist whayt I said around, quoting the adverb but omitting the actual phrase. It's not that watching more does't mean anything, it means that it is not the be-all and end-all and at some point watching more does not present a significant improvement in one's outlook. I'm pretty sure we're all speculating in terms of his future price, I don't know how we can do anything else.

Again, feel free to make an actual argument next time. Or just dance circles around the issue again. Whatever works for you. If you want you can wait until the draft is over so you can unshackle yourself from the burden of not being able to say anything negative about your team.

Note that I think it was a smart pick because you will obviously be aided by the Pogba hype on this forum.

 

[Mandieta6]

I think it's just down to our relevant biases...time will tell what price he goes for, I won't be happy if the world record isn't broken (unless there's a player exchange e.g. Verratti or Oscar)

We can agree on that.

I will give you Oscar if you give us Pogba plus cash and loan Oscar back to us for the duration of his contract.

 

[Mus]

Anyway here's something relevant:

"We received an offer of €80 million but I can affirm that Pogba will not be sold."

http://www.gazzetta.it/Calciomercat...0-mln-marotta-non-si-vende-120388249597.shtml

 

[Mandieta6]

Well, if Pogba wants Barca then it might make sense to wait a year and improve his stock so he can get more money and actually play immediately. Or he can evaluate the club better when he knows he will actually be going there. Similar arguments can be made about Real whose situation is uncertain with Benitez right now.

This is probably Chelsea's best chance at getting him but I'm losing hope.

I'm not sure Pogba's stock will rise though, considering he's going to stop being a wonderkid and become a player in his prime soon and it is unlikely that Juve repeat their CL heroics so his exposure will be cut. Then again, maybe Pogba is confident his France side can get him that exposure in the Euros.

 

[Mus]

Well, if Pogba wants Barca then it might make sense to wait a year and improve his stock so he can get more money and actually play immediately. Or he can evaluate the club better when he knows he will actually be going there. Similar arguments can be made about Real whose situation is uncertain with Benitez right now.

This is probably Chelsea's best chance at getting him but I'm losing hope.

I'm not sure Pogba's stock will rise though, considering he's going to stop being a wonderkid and become a player in his prime soon and it is unlikely that Juve repeat their CL heroics so his exposure will be cut. Then again, maybe Pogba is confident his France side can get him that exposure in the Euros.

He will most probably win player of the tournament at the euros

 

[ShiftyPowers]

I agree, it makes a lot of sense for Pogba to not commit to Barcelona a year in advance for several reasons.

I don't think you can predict that Pogba will win player of the tournament. Too many variables.

 

[Xifio]

And here's me having this exact same argument with Rocky:

...

Before someone jumps on that. Note the 'if'. I wasn't saying Pogba was more talented. I was saying it didn't matter even if he was.

That should put that to rest. Added to the fact that I didn't start by bashing Pogba but by talking about the price and the discussion evolved from there.

you were taking the generic route regarding CMs when discussing/arguing with Rocky, and clearly it didn't matter to you [correctly or incorrectly] who was involved ... you are now talking about Pogba specifically not justifying the price due to the performances you've seen -- or, more accurately, not seen ...

 

[Mandieta6]

Generic and specific, if you want to to claim that you have a better knowledge of what I myself was saying then by all means keep at it. Also keep being paranoid, it looks good on you. And finally, fuck off man, I've seen enough of Pogba, get a proper argument.

I missed this though. You've been gone for so long I'd forgotten what it was like to argue with you. The avoiding the issue, neglecting to address entire postd and focusing on one word or sentence. I always forget that you aren't as smart as you seem. It's been nice, Xifio.

 

[Xifio]

lol, now look who's deflecting ... you're making it sound like you've brought this up before, but generic and specific aren't the same thing ...

what additional point do you want me to make that isn't self-evident, and hasn't been reiterated by the Juventisti already? it's pretty much all I've said so far on this topic ...

but please, tell yourself whatever you need to so you can sleep at night ...

 

[Mandieta6]

You've said nothing on the topic. You've just accused me of not knowing anything about Pogba and insinuated I'm just out to get you.

It was an argument in which the point I was making was being applied specifically to one player but could also be applied generically. Yet again, here's you fixating on technicalities. I love the arrogance of 'self-evident'. Now it's not just 'I'm not going to respond to you because you're a poo-poo head' but 'I'm not going to because it's obvious why you're wrong.' Sure thing, dude.