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Manchester United Thread [2011/2012]
- Thread starter Pogba4Now
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hah, well stats are the facts when it comes to purely talking about UCL wins ... and I do agree it is the mark of judgment, but you won't win on that count ...Nady;3066258 said:
even in the last 5 seasons (06/07 to 10/11) after calciopoli in 2006, both Spain (2) and Italy (2) have more UCL wins than England (1) ... (and incidentally both nations added a World Cup trophy during that period, while England of course did not ... not necessarily pertinent, but I'd like to call attention to it
...)I'm not denying that Italy hasn't gone through its best years since 2006, but you underestimate at your own peril ...
Pogba4Now
Team Captain
The quality of a whole league is not only based on the number of UCL titles won. Its more about the competition in that league. Juve has fallen badly and Milan did too but is now catching up.
A league having several teams being equally strong competing for the title imo is considered stronger and more competitive compared to a league that has 1 or 2 dominant teams with the rest of the teams being nowhere.
If you compare UCL semi final apparitions, there's a clear domination of EPL teams compared to Italian teams.
EPL/Serie A
2007: 3/1
2008: 3/0
2009: 3/0
2010: 0/1
2011: 1/0
Thats 10/2 overall. Thats a better indication of the overall strength of the league than the number of UCL won.
Now that I wrote these statistics, the only 2 times Serie A teams made it to the semis in the past 5 years, they went on to win it. (Milan 2007 and Inter 2010)
That being said, I think Serie A is becoming stronger year by year with more competition. We've seen teams like Napoli getting into the elite zone and few seasons back, Fiorentina was in the UCL. Milan improved their squad with numerous signings last season... So we'll see.
Coming back to the initial discussion about Nasri, I wouldn't see a reason why he would choose a Serie A team now. It would definitely be more of a step down right now.
A league having several teams being equally strong competing for the title imo is considered stronger and more competitive compared to a league that has 1 or 2 dominant teams with the rest of the teams being nowhere.
If you compare UCL semi final apparitions, there's a clear domination of EPL teams compared to Italian teams.
EPL/Serie A
2007: 3/1
2008: 3/0
2009: 3/0
2010: 0/1
2011: 1/0
Thats 10/2 overall. Thats a better indication of the overall strength of the league than the number of UCL won.
Now that I wrote these statistics, the only 2 times Serie A teams made it to the semis in the past 5 years, they went on to win it. (Milan 2007 and Inter 2010)
That being said, I think Serie A is becoming stronger year by year with more competition. We've seen teams like Napoli getting into the elite zone and few seasons back, Fiorentina was in the UCL. Milan improved their squad with numerous signings last season... So we'll see.
Coming back to the initial discussion about Nasri, I wouldn't see a reason why he would choose a Serie A team now. It would definitely be more of a step down right now.
yeah, no disputing your analysis here ... the winners' stats tell a very different story to the semifinal stats ...Nady;3066330 said:
but the most talented players think about winning the Champions League ... and they know they have 2 options in Spain, and 2 in Italy to do so ... how many do they have in England for this coming season? 2 for sure, but, realistically, are there more?
propsNady;3066330 said:
well if we're talking only about a Bosman deal, he's not choosing now, he's choosing next season ...Nady;3066330 said:
the Agnellis' Juventus should be back in the Champions League; DiBenedetto's Roma should be too; Inter and especially Galliani at Milan will always be on the lookout for a smart deal ...
and if they don't have to pay transfer fees, they'll offer wages that will be higher than what he currently has at Arsenal, and he'd be offered star billing, which is something he knows won't happen at Man U, since he'd always be treated second (at best) to Wayne Rooney ... plus, how comfortable would he really be in an old-school 4-4-2?
ShiftyPowers
Make America Great Again
Xifio;3066340 said:
Seriously? If you're moving clubs you would hopefully look further than just one season, in which case there are 5 in England. United, City, Arsenal, Chelsea, and Liverpool.
And Nady, don't even bother. Xifio is the most dishonest arguer when it comes to Italy, Zlatan, and Ajax. Here's one piece of evidence that supports my argument! I will beat you over the head with it and shout so loud that I won't hear the 5 pieces of evidence you have!! It's like they don't exist!
Pogba4Now
Team Captain
Xifio;3066340 said:
Yes they do think about the Champions league. That's their ultimate dream. In the past 5 years 2 Italian teams won it. But if you think about it, The "Special one" played a big role in Inter's 2010 win. And AC Milan had an awesome team consisting of Kaka, Pirlo, Seedorf, Inzaghi etc who were all at their best. That was really a special team.
Right now things have changed. Inter Milan dropped significantly after the departure of Mourinho. No denying how important he was for the club.
Milan looks like a sort of transition right now with last year's acquisitions starting to gel. Not to mention how much of a deep **** Juve are right now.
TBH right now its difficult to tell in which direction the Italian teams are going. It would be a gamble to join Juventus for sure. They could end up in the Europa for a while. As for Inter, with recent managerial changes you never know in which direction they'll go. AC Milan looks promising but as I said above is in a state of transition with some major changes to be done (replacing Pirlo, Gatusso, Inzaghi etc).
In Spain and England on the other hand, you're sure that either United or Chelsea will be winning the title and will play in the UCL year in year out. You know also that they'll at least reach the UCL quarter finals. Madrid now has Mourinho and starting to look promising. Not to mention Barca which has been very consistent since 3 years.
Xifio;3066340 said:props
well if we're talking only about a Bosman deal, he's not choosing now, he's choosing next season ...
the Agnellis' Juventus should be back in the Champions League; DiBenedetto's Roma should be too; Inter and especially Galliani at Milan will always be on the lookout for a smart deal ...
A lot of "should". There's no guarantee at all that they'll get back to the UCL. Also it might mean a few years before they get back to the UCL. You can't tell for sure.
and if they don't have to pay transfer fees, they'll offer wages that will be higher than what he currently has at Arsenal, and he'd be offered star billing, which is something he knows won't happen at Man U, since he'd always be treated second (at best) to Wayne Rooney ... plus, how comfortable would he really be in an old-school 4-4-2?
Don't really understand what you mean with the "star billing" thing. Why do you think he'll be treated second best to Rooney?
ShiftyPowers;3066342 said:
lol I hate getting into long arguments on internet forums. Thought I'd give it a go for once.
I thought this was the big problem with Barça and Real in the Spanish league?Nady;3066388 said:
answering the second question first: with Rooney being English and the symbol of the club going forward, they would ensure he is the highest paid player above all, and his happiness and retention at the club will be prioritized -- this has already been proven ... so for the duration of his career at the club, Samir would, at best, be second to Wayne on the priority list and the payroll, if that ... this would not always be the case at a couple of the Italian clubs ...Nady;3066388 said:
in terms of "star billing":
when a big team wins the big competition (UCL), their star player gets the plaudits and the awards ...
in a club where there's an established attacking player who the team is built around (Rooney), Nasri's chances of being contention for something like the Ballon d'Or is lessened ...
plus, being a former Gunner, Nasri would be under added pressure to win over the Man Utd fans ... due to his past, he wouldn't be hailed as a star signing during his unveiling in the way someone like Sneijder would ... no, he'd have to work for a while to gain acceptance from the fans ... and if he tries to shortcut his allegiance to the club by kissing the badge too soon, he'd be labeled as fickle and lacking integrity ...
just seems like he has a lot more to lose than gain by switching between the modern Prem's traditionally fiercest title rivals ...
Pogba4Now
Team Captain
Xifio;3066559 said:
There's no truth in that. Roy Keane was once the most paid United player. He was better paid than Beckham. And he's Irish.
Before getting his new contract, Rooney was receiving 90,000 pounds a week and C. Ronaldo was receiving 120,000 a week. Ronaldo is portuguese. So what you're saying makes no sense.
There's no prioritization whatsoever in United as far as I know. There's no protection for English players. They are all treated the same.
Xifio;3066559 said:
I completely disagree. Everyone welcomed Michael Owen, despite him playing for Liver poo and being a Liverpool legend. He was welcomed from the first day. No one complained about him. He used to be a badge kisser and celebrated many goals against Man Utd.
He was warmly welcomed and his shirt is among the best sellers. Nasri would be welcome in the same way.
I do agree that nationality doesn't always dominate; but being English does play in Rooney's favour, and I think you know that too ...
regardless: Keane was in the team before Becks ... Cristiano arrived before Rooney ... the seniority there was different to what the seniority would be here ... and like I said, it's been shown to what lengths the club will go to retain Rooney ...
as for Owen, I think it would have been different if he was younger, with his best days ahead of him, and coming directly from Liverpool ... I don't think the Nasri situation is comparable to Owen's ...
regardless: Keane was in the team before Becks ... Cristiano arrived before Rooney ... the seniority there was different to what the seniority would be here ... and like I said, it's been shown to what lengths the club will go to retain Rooney ...
as for Owen, I think it would have been different if he was younger, with his best days ahead of him, and coming directly from Liverpool ... I don't think the Nasri situation is comparable to Owen's ...
Pogba4Now
Team Captain
Xifio;3066578 said:
I don't think it makes much of a difference. United is very minimally associated with England and the pride of being English. This banner is an excellent example:
Maybe you're right but Rooney receives 150,000 pounds a week. Young has reportedly been offered 130,000. If Nasri receives around this much, he'd be much happier than the 60 000 pounds he's receiving at Arsenal. Thats more than double.Xifio;3066578 said:
Xifio;3066578 said:
I don't see any reason why Nasri wouldn't be received well by United fans. I don't know a single United fan who doesn't want us to sign Nasri just because he's at Arsenal. Snatching a star player from a rival makes it even sweeter. Because your rival's loss becomes your gain.
EDIT: another example would be Tevez. He instantly became a C*ty favourite. As I said, capturing a rival team's star makes it sweeter.
In other news, Fergie has rubished Sneijder news. I don't think he would've been worth the 190 000 pounds per week salary. Thats a lot to pay and a gamble given he's never played in the EPL. Just like the Veron gamble.
You guys overrate the Epl like crazy, any time there is talk of a player from a foreign league there's always "Its a gamble cuz he's never played in the Epl". I remember some English media saying although Barcelona beat United in that fashion in 09 would struggle to win the Epl.
Do you guys think that the stokes and wigans pose that much of a problem? Do you think a player like Sneijder who would be in my opinion the best midfielder in the Epl wouldn't find a way to break those teams down.
Its arrogant to think a player like Sneijder wouldn't be a success in your league. English teams aren't that good, Barcelona, Inter, Real, Milan have proved that. You guys don't scare no one, some of the English teams in the CL have been laughable.
It's not about quality, it's about style.
And I do think Barcelona would find the Prem more difficult than La Liga, they'd definitely be at the top, obviously. It's not as if they'd be a midtable team.
And which teams have been laughable? I'm finding it hard to remember a side that didn't at least progress to the knockout rounds.
No one is saying Sneijder wouldn't be a success. The argument is that the risk factor involved with him not adjusting to the league might not be reflected in the transfer value. Personally, I'd back even a 60m move for Sneijder, but unfortunately my side seems to have lost interest.
And I do think Barcelona would find the Prem more difficult than La Liga, they'd definitely be at the top, obviously. It's not as if they'd be a midtable team.
And which teams have been laughable? I'm finding it hard to remember a side that didn't at least progress to the knockout rounds.
No one is saying Sneijder wouldn't be a success. The argument is that the risk factor involved with him not adjusting to the league might not be reflected in the transfer value. Personally, I'd back even a 60m move for Sneijder, but unfortunately my side seems to have lost interest.
ArgVega;3066729 said:
You you totally missed the plot and by the sounds of it for quite some time.
It has nothing to do with there skill but adapting to the English game. Its far different. Faster and more physical being the biggest problem foreign players have.
Obviously considering the majority of top league players are in fact foreign it would suggest plenty adapt fine although many have failed.
Could you imagine a team like Barcelona going against a team like Stoke City. 30 minutes of extra time from them rolling around on the floor. BTW that was a joke before that statement turns into a full blown argument.
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