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Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11
- Thread starter Hakeem
- Start date
Brondbyfan
Senior Squad
Hey, I think that Vietnam was unjust and I don't blame anyone who wanted to get out of that death trap. I think an important distinction is that while Clinton's efforts to evade the draft were elaborate and intricate, they were not illegal. Going AWOL/deserting is. If Bush got into the national guard and served, it would be different. On top of that, Clinton did not lead us into another Vietnam like Bush did in Iraq, and the fact that Bush is perhaps the most hawkish president in American history while being unwilling to even serve in the Nation Guard turns my stomach.
But your retort brings up an interesting point: the Republicans who were so appalled by Clinton's actions during Vietnam are mysteriously willing to accept a draft dodger/deserter as their leader. I quote Shifty Quayle in 1992 regarding Clinton: "He is going to have to come clean with the American people and answer the questions." And I quote Colin Powell: "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed . . . managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units. . . Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."
To sum up: Draft dodging? Not the real issue. Going AWOL/deserting? A much bigger issue. Lying about it and destroying evidence? A still bigger issue. The hypocrisy of Republicans? A big issue, but not surprising.
But your retort brings up an interesting point: the Republicans who were so appalled by Clinton's actions during Vietnam are mysteriously willing to accept a draft dodger/deserter as their leader. I quote Shifty Quayle in 1992 regarding Clinton: "He is going to have to come clean with the American people and answer the questions." And I quote Colin Powell: "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed . . . managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units. . . Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."
To sum up: Draft dodging? Not the real issue. Going AWOL/deserting? A much bigger issue. Lying about it and destroying evidence? A still bigger issue. The hypocrisy of Republicans? A big issue, but not surprising.
1. Nobodyhas come up with the evidence to prove he went AWOL. I don't know how many times I need to tell you that.
2. Evading the draft is illegal...
3. Iraq is no Vietnam... sigh.
4. There wouldn't have been any wars if 9/11 hadn't of happened.
5. Clinton still dodged the draft, and until you can prove otherwise, Bush didn't.
ShiftyPowers
Make America Great Again
Pontiakos, I won't debate this issue. Even if some Jews aided Hitler's rise to power, the fact that you have lumped it together in a statement somewhat like "The Jews aided Hitler's rise to power" shows a viewpoint that is scary. It is certainly possible, and probably certain that a few people who hapened to be Jewish helped him for personal gain, but to lump all jews with those selfish individuals shows the intent to slander the name of Juddaism, and your viewpoint is entrenched in religious bigotry.
Brondbyfan
Senior Squad
Bush has never proved he was there, which is a far simpler task than proving he wasn't. The fact that he either refuses or is unable to produce proof doesn't raise a red flag for you? The evidence that he was not there is far stronger. If you believe he was there, please point to some convicing evidence. And again I ask, what would lead you to believe he went AWOL? Or is there anything that could change your opinion of Bush? If there isn't, just admit it, I won't waste any more of my time.
Cheney got 5 deferments, was that illegal? Bill Clinton was creative with regard to how he got out of service. If you think that's unethical, that's your opinion, but he didn't do anything illegal.
Yes, there would have been. Plans to attack Afghanistan and Iraq existed before Bush was even installed by the Supreme Court. This is something the neo-conservatives wanted. They were going to do it one way or another. The preposterous fictions they spread about their justifications for Iraq proved that.
Well I never actually said it was all jews.(my apologies if that is how it came across)......just some of the 25,000.......you're right it is scary.....its not just scary it's disgusting, and unfortunately it shows how greed can drive humanity to such repulsive ends as to not even consider its fellow man......but alas such is the history of man. Uncaring, jingoistic........animal like for more the 6000 years of recorded history, and I'm sure for more to come.
And this wasn't my personal viewpoint but that of others, I just chose to shine light on it.
On the contrary, my viewpoint was expressed in a different post. I don't think anyone will disagree with it.
To sum it up the jewish holocaust was a new low for humanity, on whom the blame falls is debatable, who carried out is not debatable, and is being/should be punished.
one last thing both you and Elder labelled me as a bigot for expressing the viewpoint of sources that you deam unworthy to debate......
I listed the definition of bigotry.........I have read all sides, my opinion stands and is well informed. I am open to other's opinions, and will debated them if I disagree with them, as I have done in the past.
you label me as a religious bigot, even though I not once expressed the superiority of one religious belief to another.........so I'm confused.
Bigotry is dismissing other's ideas as inferior.......who has done that?
certainly not me, and certainly by not gloryfying one religion past another.
Bush, Cheney, Clinton, Delay. They all dodged the draft someway or another but none of them did anything that could put be called blatantly illegal, although the verdict's still out on Bush.
Bush -- joined the Texas Air National Guard to avoid being drafted knowing that the Vietnamese would never invade Texas or the U.S. by planes. He also wanted to fly planes. Question still on whether he attended. I couldn't care less but I despise him not being honest about it and questioning Kerry's service.
Cheney -- got a four deferments because his wife was pregnant. like he said: "I had other priorities in the '60s than military service."
Clinton -- went to Oxford in England. Smart move. Only one to oppose the war.
Delay -- got a student deferment and avoided the lottery. claimed that he didn't get drafted because Asians and other minorities were drafted instead of him to avoid the life of the ghetto. later on during the war, he became a cockroach an exterminator. during kosovo, he blasted democrats and clinton for voting in favor of the war. he also went on tv to say that the u.s. was about lose the war in kosovo during the war.
Bush -- joined the Texas Air National Guard to avoid being drafted knowing that the Vietnamese would never invade Texas or the U.S. by planes. He also wanted to fly planes. Question still on whether he attended. I couldn't care less but I despise him not being honest about it and questioning Kerry's service.
Cheney -- got a four deferments because his wife was pregnant. like he said: "I had other priorities in the '60s than military service."
Clinton -- went to Oxford in England. Smart move. Only one to oppose the war.
Delay -- got a student deferment and avoided the lottery. claimed that he didn't get drafted because Asians and other minorities were drafted instead of him to avoid the life of the ghetto. later on during the war, he became a cockroach an exterminator. during kosovo, he blasted democrats and clinton for voting in favor of the war. he also went on tv to say that the u.s. was about lose the war in kosovo during the war.
Brondbyfan
Senior Squad
That's an excellent point which I hadn't brought up. Dodging the draft is one thing, lying about it is another, but the way in which the Bush administration and their allies have desecrated the records of those who did serve is unforgiveable. We all know about what they say about Kerry. But then there is Max Cleland, who lost three limbs in Vietnam, who was juxtaposed with pictures of Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden (his opponent, Saxby Chambliss, dodged the draft with a "bad knee." Talk to Cleland about a "bad knee"). They even claimed John McCain - WHO IS A MEMBER OF THEIR OWN PARTY! - went insane in a POW camp in Vietnam. It's absolutely appalling. Do you remember Clinton talking sh!t about Bob Dole's service in WWII back in 1996? Did he claim Dole lost the use of his arm in a shootout with a hooker or something? Of course not, but I bet Karl Rove would. Bush has nothing but contempt for the military, that's why he refused to serve, insults their veterans, sends them off to die without propoer protection for political and financial gain, and cuts their benefits.
Brondbyfan
Senior Squad
I bet McCain said "In the words of Dick Cheney, go f*ck yourself."
Oh, the Bush-ites also spread a rumor that McCain fathered a black child with a prostitute. This rumor was derived from the fact that McCain adopted a little girl from a Mother Theresa orphanage in Bangladesh.
This is the man who supposedly would restore integrity to the White House. But I don't think it gets any lower than that.
Oh, the Bush-ites also spread a rumor that McCain fathered a black child with a prostitute. This rumor was derived from the fact that McCain adopted a little girl from a Mother Theresa orphanage in Bangladesh.
This is the man who supposedly would restore integrity to the White House. But I don't think it gets any lower than that.
ShiftyPowers
Make America Great Again
Yes. Because she didn't want to put up with crap from a publication who had also said that her charities helped fund Osama bin Laden.
Brondbyfan
Senior Squad
No, not at the convention, it was to some guy who was harrassing her and misquoting her after a speech. It's not like she said it on the floor of the Senate.
You have no idea what you are talking about in regards to Cleland and Chambliss. I live in the state where both of them are from... Cleland became a very left liberal when he was basically a middle of the road/conservative democrat who started to vote against most military spending proposals as well as intelligence budgets. He has become a disgrace, and the people of Georgia voted his sorry ass out.
Losing your limbs in a war doesn't qualify you to be a hero, nor does it entitle you to be a Senator.
Here's more on the story from the other side. Yes, the peaceful liberals in this country like to give death threats now.
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000590838
Brondbyfan
Senior Squad
It entitles you to better than being compared to Osama bin Laden and Saddamn Hussein by a draft dodger. And losing three limbs for your contry doesn't make you a hero? Do you have the same contempt for our armed forces that Bush does?