PES4 stats related with FM2005 characters 1 by 1,IMO

[pubb]

It's undefined low as for 'zero' value in CM attributes. The current solution in convertion engine is to get random low. It will make some new player too low stamina or something else ridiculous.

I'd like to get them 'random low meanly' so called. For example, the average 'stamina' for most players is '12' (assumed), then 'random low meanly' will convert 'stamina 0' to ranging from '12 minus 5' to '12 plus 2'. Is it more reasonable?

If so, then I have a question: what is the average value one by one? The following is the initial settings from me. I got the list mostly based on the lowest values in Liverpool (as the bottom value +1):

crossing 7
Dribbling 7
Finishing 7
Heading 8
Long shots 7
Marking 7
Off the ball 7
Passing 13
Penalty taking 10
Tackling 9
Vision 7
Handling 14(GK)
Aerial ability 14(GK)
Command of area 14(GK)
Communication 14(GK)
Kicking 11(GK)
Throwing 11(GK)
Anticipation 9
Decisions 8
One on ones 14(GK)
Positioning 7
Reflexes 14(GK)
First touch 9
Technique 11
Left foot 6
Right loot 6
Flair 6
Corners 7
Teamwork 6
Work rate 13
Long throws 7
Eccentricity 6(GK)
Rushing out 12(GK)
Tendency to punch 12(GK)
Acceleration 7
Free kicks 9
Strength 7
Stamina 14
Pace 11
Jumping 11
Influence 9
Dirtiness 7
Balance 9
Bravery 7
Consistency 9
Aggression 8
Agility 11
Important matches 9
Injury proneness 9
Versatility 8
Natural fitness 9
Determination 9

 

[sinashgh]

All I can say is well done, imo this is far superior to the old conversion system, now good players like Lampard have good stats, I a happy and will convert alot of players to FM stats, where as before I only had some.

But I agree, the chances of getting the conversion 100% perfect is 6 million/1.

I dont even think the FM stats are 100% perfect in the first place, nevermind the conversion.

I also agree with tweaking it yourself, obviously you aint gonna agree with every stas converted, and it takes seconds to change the stat, or go into your game and make them default again, but whining about something like freekicks aint the way to go.

So like I said, well done, dont take note of these people who aint happy because Lampard should have 87 balance instead of 88.

Word-for-word I agree with what Kingpug said right here.

FM's stats aren't 100% peffect to BEGIN with... and do you even know Chelsea that well??? because believe it or not.. Geremi is their best FK taker. He takes a mean FK which he should during his time with Real Madrid and Middlesboro the season he was on loan.

This editor is by far the best editor I've ever ****in seen.

 

[Tom]

you dont know that Geremi's free taking is still the best, he hasnt taken one in over a year.

TROD.

 

[pubb]

Help me be sure about 'Command of Area' and 'Rushing out'.
It seems 'Command of Area' is 'how often' attr and 'Rushing out' is 'how good' attr.
Then maybe it's better to let 'Rushing out' in 'defense' and 'Command of area' in 'aggression' for GK.

 

[pubb]

I'm going to consider the following changes in convertion engine. I'm not sure of them too much. Any comments are welcome. Please contribute some to us all with your good points.

If all zero values in CM be randomized to 7-11 (or something other random low as I listed above), then many unknown players like Oleguer will be more usable but still very ordinary. The converting results will be around 70. Just like what http://verter.grinster.net/ shows.

Is it neccessary? Now the players such as Glen Johnson have too little stamina to be listed in the squad. In reality, they ARE usable.

The affection from 'work rate' will be tuned down in fields of physical attributes such as 'balance','stamina','agility','speed','acceleration' and 'jump'. Then Eto'o will have higher speed of 94 and Henry will have 98.

Not sure whether the current affection from 'work rate' is acceptable. For a player with 'work rate' of 13 (like Henry), almost all stats of him will be tuned down for 3 points. But in my own opinion, it's acceptable.

'Rushing out' will replace 'command of area' in caculating GK's defence, since I come to know 'command of area' is a 'tendency' rather than an ability. So, 'command of area' will contribute in caculating GK's aggression' instead of 'rushing out'.

Am I right?

'dribbling' will come from 'dribbiling>=17 AND teamwork<=15'

I've tested some clubs. Seems ok. Good points from Clements. But I'll insist the formula for 'anti-dribbling' using 'vision' because I noticed that most players with this special skill is midfielder.

'playmaking' will come from 'vision>=18 AND decisions>=17'

I believe in Clement's choice.

'sliding tackle' will come from 'bravery+tackling>=35'

No decisions affecting. Clement's point too. To tell the truth, I don't know Heinz in MU is good at sliding tackle in reality. So I need to be blamed for the engine.

 

[Tom]

"Anticipation (relative-mental)
How well he anticipates what is about to happen on the field.
- often what separates the excellent players from the good players, it is useful for all players across the field, but particularly for defenders/strikers who have to read situations VERY fast."

thats why.

TROD.

i'll just repeat what i said Clement, thats why anticipation should help one-on-ones

TROD.

 

[zabe]

I don't know much about the FM data structure, but I wonder if it's possible to get players' Current Ability (and Potential Ability) from the database (I guess this goes to Yannick). If so, players with zero skills but good score in Current Ability should get better randomised skills.

About Work Rate... perhaps it shouldn't affect those skills directly, at least not much. It still affects them through mentality.

You're doing a good job, man (well, all of you guys)

 

[nik0s]

zabe is right, Current Ability is very important in FM2005, as it reflects the player's current form. So basicly, a good number in current ability should increase someone's stats.

Also, i noticed really low numbers on play/condition stability. Most players are 4-5 and i hardly ever see 6-7, and nothing above that

And lastly, you shouldn't use that formula above jump, where people of certain height max out on a certain jump attribute. Instead you should factor their height compared to the average player height, and multiply that by the FMs jump attribute. For example, an 1.86cm player has 87 jump, assuming average height is 1.75cm, you get 1.75/1.86=0.94*87=82. The way you do it, you penalise players for being tall, which is not right.

 

[pubb]

zabe is right, Current Ability is very important in FM2005, as it reflects the player's current form. So basicly, a good number in current ability should increase someone's stats.

Is 'Current Ability' variant for every FM2005 instance? That's to say, when I have played for sometime, are my FM2005 current stats different from yours?

Also, i noticed really low numbers on play/condition stability. Most players are 4-5 and i hardly ever see 6-7, and nothing above that

I see many high play/condition stabilities. Buffon's play stability is 8, Nedved is 7/7.

And lastly, you shouldn't use that formula above jump, where people of certain height max out on a certain jump attribute. Instead you should factor their height compared to the average player height, and multiply that by the FMs jump attribute. For example, an 1.86cm player has 87 jump, assuming average height is 1.75cm, you get 1.75/1.86=0.94*87=82. The way you do it, you penalise players for being tall, which is not right.

Good idea. How about 'Jump * 180 / Height'? It seems the highest jumping value in KONAMI stats is not from player with height 175.

 

[zabe]

Is 'Current Ability' variant for every FM2005 instance? That's to say, when I have played for sometime, are my FM2005 current stats different from yours?

Current Ability changes during the game, but there is also a starting value for each player in the database. However, I think some players have random starting Current Ability. Still, if I'm correct, the value isn't totally random, there is still some score indicating how good the randomized value can get. So even if the Current Ability is randomized, we could get some idea of the range where it lies.

Perhaps someone with better knowledge could help here.

Also, how much (if at all) are the Preferred Moves being used in the stat conversion?

 

[pubb]

I have no information of PPMs from CM. It depends on Yannick.

 

[nik0s]

I picked 1.75 as a football players average height. Obviously you will not get anything by looking at FM's jump as it jump+height and since height is variable, it won't give you much.

Seeing as football players are between 1.60cm and 1.90cm I'd say 1.75 is an accurate pick for average height. If you want to be more accurate just sample 50-100 players from the db and get the average height from there.

As for play/condition stability I still think numbers are pretty low.

First off, looking at the first page , you got the two mixed up . Play stability is related to consistency, and Condition stability is related to Physical Fitness, not the other way around.

Still the numbers are low. For example in the whole Greece squad there's currently 3 7s (all in play stability), and out of the whole England squad there are five 7s and two 8s in play stability, and only one 7 in condition stability. If we change them around there will only be out of two national squads, only a single 7 in play stabilty. That's pretty low IMO. Three 7s and plenty of 4s and 5s for the Euro champs is pretty low...

How do you work things out? Is the first page accurate? Because if it is you should revise some thing, like maybe incease the reference point. Also a few stats are not linked one-to-one, like for example Mentality->composure +concentration + determination + decisions +bravery and maybe more, but some have different weight than others. For example it could be 40%*Composure + 20%*Concentration +20%*Determination + 10%*Decisions +10%*Bravery etc.

I asked my brother who is an FM2005 researcher about Current Ability and he said it's used by the engine to equalise player stats. Some stats are marked as relative, and if the average of those stats is above the players current ability, then the stats are calculated to match it. More importantly, Current Ability is used for calculating all those 0s in the FM database, so I think that's where you should use it. If you want to know anything about the FM stats, I can always ask my brother...

I'm also a data engineer by profession, and pretty keen with statistical analysis and numbers/databases in general, so if i can do anything you can let me know. I do think that some things need tweaking, so if you want you can find me on MSN [email protected]

In the meantime, I'll try to get you a complete proposal of tweaks

 

[nik0s]

Ok here goes...

Offense-> Movement (Off the ball)

I think it should be just that. Vision is for passing only:

Vision:
How good he is at recognising players in good positions to pass to (Creativity). The higher the rating the further and wider he will be able to “see” a pass.

Passing of course is a part of offence, but there are attributes especially for that, so I don't think it should be included in offence. Finishing only for the shot at goal, which is just a part of offence. Also offering a bonus for WB would no be necessery IMO, as Roberto Carlos already has 18 for movement for example.


Defense-> Positioning (40%) , Marking (40%) , Tackling (20%)

Body Balance ->
For Defenders: Strength (60%) - Balance (40%)
For Medfielders: Strength (50%) - Balance (50%)
For Attackers: Strength (40%) - Balance (60%)

Stamina -> Stamina, but with the reference point moved to 60, because any player with stamina below 60 is useless. So it would be Stamina = 4*x+20

Top Speed -> Pace
Acceleration -> Acceleration
Response -> Anticipation
Agility -> Agility

Dribble Accuracy -> Dribbling (80%) + Concentration (20%)

Concentration:How well the player concentrates on a move-by-move basis during a match (this is “consistency” during a match on a move by move basis)

Dribble Speed -> Dribbling (70%) + Decisions (15%) + Acceleration (15%)

Short Pass Accuracy -> Passing (60%) + Vision (30%) + Concenrtation (10%)
Short Pass Speed -> Passing (50%) + Long Shots (30%) + Strength (20%)
Long PassAccuracy -> Passing (40%) + Vision (40%) +Crossing(10%) + Concenrtation (10%)
Long Pass Speed -> Passing (30%) + Long Shots (30%) + Crossing (20%) + Strength (20%)

Shot Accuracy -> Finishing (80%) + Decisions (10%) + Concenrtation (10%)
Shot Power -> Long Shots
Shot Technique -> Technique (70%) + Finishing (20%) + Flair (10%)

Free Kick Accuracy -> Free Kicks
Curving -> Free Kicks (60%) + Technique (40%)

I took corners out of FK, because they are irrelevant. There is a player in Greece who is very good at FK, scored 8 this year but is not all that good at crossing and corners, which is more like passing. The current formula gives him 83 at FK at 77 at curling, which is low, as he has 18 at FK, only because he has 13 at cornens

Header -> Heading
Jump -> (height/175) * Jumping
Technique -> Technique (75%) + First Touch (25%)
Aggresion -> Aggresion (80%) + Bravery (20%) (off the ball = movement , it goes to offence, not here)

Mentality -> Composure (20%) + Determination (20%) + Work Rate (20%) Concentration (20%) + Bravery (10%) + Leadership (10%)

Play Stability -> Consistency
Team Work -> Teamwork (100%) + Influence(5% bonus) (if more than 99 set to 99)
Condition Stability -> Natural Fintess

Weak Foot Accuracy -> This is in relation to the strong foot, so it should just be the weak foots' rating divided by 2. For example a player that has his weak foot on 18 he should get a 9
Weak Foot Frequency -> Weak Foot (60%) + Flair (20%) + Technique (20%)


Also, Work Rate is a mental ability, I don't like the idea of tweaking technical and physical skills with it.

GK: Everything the same except:
Defense -> Positioning (50%) + Aerial Ability (20%) + One on Ones (20%) + Communcation (10%)
Balance -> Strength (70%) + Balance (30%)
Short Pass Accuracy -> Passing (40%) + Throwing (40%) + Vision (20%)
Long Pass Speed -> Kicking
Response -> Anticipation (70%) + Reflexes (30%)
GK skills -> Reflexes (50%) + One on Ones (20%) + Rushing Out (10%) + Aerial Ability (10%) + Command of Area (10%)
Teamwork: Team Work (60%) + Communication (40%)

I took handling out:
"Handling:
How well he holds onto the ball after making a save or taking a high ball. "


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mathematical stuff:

If you want to move the reference point a little bit higher, like for example you want FM's stamina 10 to be PES's 60, here's what you do:

y=(100-R)*x/10 + 2*R -100

, where x=FM number and R=the new reference point (if the stat you're looking for is from 1-10, then divide the result by 10 to get it)

So if the new reference point is at 60, it would be:

y=4*x+20

PS Would it be possible to have the FM cache in an access mdb file, or an ODBC datasource? Or even better, would it be easy to for the editor to import/export data from database sources? I could provide the whole code for that if you'd like

 

[pubb]

Communication makes the world. I give my opinion below.

Ok here goes...

Offense-> Movement (Off the ball)

I think it should be just that. Vision is for passing only:

Vision:
How good he is at recognising players in good positions to pass to (Creativity). The higher the rating the further and wider he will be able to “see” a pass.

Passing of course is a part of offence, but there are attributes especially for that, so I don't think it should be included in offence. Finishing only for the shot at goal, which is just a part of offence. Also offering a bonus for WB would no be necessery IMO, as Roberto Carlos already has 18 for movement for example.

I had thought about it before. But the results were not good when considerring only 'off the ball'. And it's hard to make differences among so many top scorers only by 'off the ball' because all of them are likely with 18-19 'off the ball'. So I will stick on my thoughts until you show a better formula.

Defense-> Positioning (40%) , Marking (40%) , Tackling (20%)

I'd thought of use different percents to weight quite a few factors. When I see the results from a much more simple formula, I quit. And I think some of your formulas are a little too complex. If the simple one works fine, I prefer to it much more.

Body Balance ->
For Defenders: Strength (60%) - Balance (40%)
For Medfielders: Strength (50%) - Balance (50%)
For Attackers: Strength (40%) - Balance (60%)

Why?

Stamina -> Stamina, but with the reference point moved to 60, because any player with stamina below 60 is useless. So it would be Stamina = 4*x+20

Yes, I agree. In next version, you will see higher stamina for players with 'stamina 0'. They'll be useful.

Top Speed -> Pace
Acceleration -> Acceleration
Response -> Anticipation
Agility -> Agility

Dribble Accuracy -> Dribbling (80%) + Concentration (20%)

Concentration:How well the player concentrates on a move-by-move basis during a match (this is “consistency” during a match on a move by move basis)

Dribble Speed -> Dribbling (70%) + Decisions (15%) + Acceleration (15%)

Short Pass Accuracy -> Passing (60%) + Vision (30%) + Concenrtation (10%)
Short Pass Speed -> Passing (50%) + Long Shots (30%) + Strength (20%)
Long PassAccuracy -> Passing (40%) + Vision (40%) +Crossing(10%) + Concenrtation (10%)
Long Pass Speed -> Passing (30%) + Long Shots (30%) + Crossing (20%) + Strength (20%)

Shot Accuracy -> Finishing (80%) + Decisions (10%) + Concenrtation (10%)
Shot Power -> Long Shots
Shot Technique -> Technique (70%) + Finishing (20%) + Flair (10%)

No 'concentration' be digged out from CM database yet. And I believe many of the above are more absolutely-technical like. I hear no response from the community that the current stats are bad. Maybe it's ok. Let it be.

Free Kick Accuracy -> Free Kicks
Curving -> Free Kicks (60%) + Technique (40%)

I took corners out of FK, because they are irrelevant. There is a player in Greece who is very good at FK, scored 8 this year but is not all that good at crossing and corners, which is more like passing. The current formula gives him 83 at FK at 77 at curling, which is low, as he has 18 at FK, only because he has 13 at cornens

'Corner' are some kind of 'free kick', IMOO. When you select player at a 'corner kick', 'free kick accuracy' is one of the factors to help your choice in game, you see. I just admit the current 'curving' is a little higher, but I have no idea to tweak.

Header -> Heading
Jump -> (height/175) * Jumping
Technique -> Technique (75%) + First Touch (25%)
Aggresion -> Aggresion (80%) + Bravery (20%) (off the ball = movement , it goes to offence, not here)

I've expressed what I think in 'aggression' in one of the issues above. Most of backlines have low values and most of forwards have high ones. By any means, 'aggression' is an attacking issue.

Mentality -> Composure (20%) + Determination (20%) + Work Rate (20%) Concentration (20%) + Bravery (10%) + Leadership (10%)

Oh my god. Better give an example player whose 'mentality' stat is well-matched with your formula while mine sucks.

Play Stability -> Consistency

'Play stability' is for 'during a match'. 'condition stability' is for 'match to match'. Right, I'll be probably wrong.

Team Work -> Teamwork (100%) + Influence(5% bonus) (if more than 99 set to 99)
Condition Stability -> Natural Fintess

I'm sure 'consistency' is more fitful to 'condition stability' with my understanding. But I'm not sure whether 'natural fitness' goes. We have no 'concentration' info for 'play stability'. Thanks to god, the current results works. You insist that the values are low in some extent. I don't think so. Greece is a great national team, but the members of it are not so great in clubs maybe. I admire your country,really.

Weak Foot Accuracy -> This is in relation to the strong foot, so it should just be the weak foots' rating divided by 2. For example a player that has his weak foot on 18 he should get a 9
Weak Foot Frequency -> Weak Foot (60%) + Flair (20%) + Technique (20%)

Never see a player with weak foot accuracy '9'. Maybe Konami thinks '8' is the top limit.

Also, Work Rate is a mental ability, I don't like the idea of tweaking technical and physical skills with it.

I DO like the idea. The problem is, it tweaks a little too much maybe. (max is 7 points, maybe it's ok too.)

GK: Everything the same except:
Defense -> Positioning (50%) + Aerial Ability (20%) + One on Ones (20%) + Communcation (10%)
Balance -> Strength (70%) + Balance (30%)
Short Pass Accuracy -> Passing (40%) + Throwing (40%) + Vision (20%)
Long Pass Speed -> Kicking
Response -> Anticipation (70%) + Reflexes (30%)
GK skills -> Reflexes (50%) + One on Ones (20%) + Rushing Out (10%) + Aerial Ability (10%) + Command of Area (10%)
Teamwork: Team Work (60%) + Communication (40%)

I took handling out:
"Handling:
How well he holds onto the ball after making a save or taking a high ball. "

I like the idea of let 'kicking' be a factor for GK's long pass speed. I don't like let 'throwing' to be one factor for 'short pass'. That's for hands. What would happen when you get a GK to play as a CBT...
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mathematical stuff:

If you want to move the reference point a little bit higher, like for example you want FM's stamina 10 to be PES's 60, here's what you do:

y=(100-R)*x/10 + 2*R -100

, where x=FM number and R=the new reference point (if the stat you're looking for is from 1-10, then divide the result by 10 to get it)

So if the new reference point is at 60, it would be:

y=4*x+20

The current basis mathematics are from Yannick's original thoughts. It's good according to the convertion results. But I'll take your idea considerred and do some tests.

PS Would it be possible to have the FM cache in an access mdb file, or an ODBC datasource? Or even better, would it be easy to for the editor to import/export data from database sources? I could provide the whole code for that if you'd like

Good ideas. You can contact Yannick himself.

 

[nik0s]

First off, it seemed from your post that you felt offended. I wasn't criticising your formulas, I was just giving you an idea of what I would do if I started from scratch. All the ideas I gave were just general ideas of how you could use weighted factors to get more FM stats into the deal, but at the same time have some be more significant than others. I have no idea if you do it already. In fact I would still like to know how you calculate every stat. Is it with weighted factors of averages? And of course I never said that they work better than yours, because quite frankly i haven't tested them If it felt like I was implying that mine are better than yours, or that yours don't work, I apologise.

*All the FM definitions a use in my posts are from the research staff manual.

I had thought about it before. But the results were not good when considerring only 'off the ball'. And it's hard to make differences among so many top scorers only by 'off the ball' because all of them are likely with 18-19 'off the ball'. So I will stick on my thoughts until you show a better formula.

True, one stat only would make it hard to differenciate. I'll try to think of something.

I'd thought of use different percents to weight quite a few factors. When I see the results from a much more simple formula, I quit. And I think some of your formulas are a little too complex. If the simple one works fine, I prefer to it much more.

As I said,I just gave a general idea of how we can use he tFM stats to their full extend. I proposed weights based on how FM2005 uses those numbers. For example, in FM positioning and marking are a lot more important for a good defender than tackling is. 40-40-20 is just a reasonable assumption

For Defenders: Strength (60%) - Balance (40%)
For Medfielders: Strength (50%) - Balance (50%)
For Attackers: Strength (40%) - Balance (60%)
Why?

In FM balance is:
How well he keeps his balance when challenged

Someone is obviously challenged when he has the ball. In FM defenders mostly rely on stength to win physical challenges. In PES balance is used for both the attacker and the defender. So i tried to get both stats to fit balance. Again, it's just a general idea, open for discussion.

Yes, I agree. In next version, you will see higher stamina for players with 'stamina 0'. They'll be useful.

An important thing I forgot to mention is how to deal with 0s. There's two things that you can do with 0 stats. One is to use the players Current Ability (with a +-5% random skew) and the other to use the team's average for that particular stat (again with a +-5% random skew).

No 'concentration' be digged out from CM database yet. And I believe many of the above are more absolutely-technical like. I hear no response from the community that the current stats are bad. Maybe it's ok. Let it be.

What about vision?

Vision:
How good he is at recognising players in good positions to pass to (Creativity). The higher the rating the further and wider he will be able to “see” a pass.

Shouldn't vision be part of passing accuracy?

As for dribble speed, i think acceleration is more fitted than pace because pace is the top speed , while acceleration is how fast someone can start moving his feet around.

Shot Technique -> Technique (70%) + Finishing (20%) + Flair (10%)

Flair:How likely he is to try the unexpected.

While flair is suited for Shot Technique, I don't think it should be more than 10-20%. What's the current weight?

'Corner' are some kind of 'free kick', IMOO. When you select player at a 'corner kick', 'free kick accuracy' is one of the factors to help your choice in game, you see. I just admit the current 'curving' is a little higher, but I have no idea to tweak.

True, you do use FK and Curving when you select a corner taker, BUT it is faaaar more difficult to score a free kick than to hit a decent corner kick. What I mean is, you can easily make good corner kicks with players that have FK/Curving at the 65-75 range, but it is a lot more difficult to score free kicks with such players. I think poeple that have a high FK rating in the FM database should not be pelanised because they have a low corner kick rating.

As for curving, I'm confused too. But I think it's more FK and Technique, not too much Corner Kick.

I've expressed what I think in 'aggression' in one of the issues above. Most of backlines have low values and most of forwards have high ones. By any means, 'aggression' is an attacking issue.

FM:Aggression (absolute)
How aggressive he is. This is an on-pitch attribute and refers to the player’s attitude in a match. High aggression will cause the player to make more tackles for example and get involved in play,

PES:
The higher the value the more aggresievly the player will atack

And looking that the default stats it does seem that defenders have lower values than attackers, so you're absolutely right

Oh my god. Better give an example player whose 'mentality' stat is well-matched with your formula while mine sucks.

Again, mate, I never said your stats suck. I was just trying to discuss how we can fit all those FM stats into PES

'Play stability' is for 'during a match'. 'condition stability' is for 'match to match'. Right, I'll be probably wrong.

I'm sure 'consistency' is more fitful to 'condition stability' with my understanding. But I'm not sure whether 'natural fitness' goes. We have no 'concentration' info for 'play stability'. Thanks to god, the current results works. You insist that the values are low in some extent. I don't think so. Greece is a great national team, but the members of it are not so great in clubs maybe. I admire your country,really.

FM2005:
Consistency
How consistently he performs from match to match. If you set this to 5 for example, he will only perform to his Current Ability 25% of the time, if 20 that would be 100% ! This is set on a match-by-match basis. Please note that there are only very few players that would be rated as 20. Note: this is a particularly important attribute

Natural Fitness
How high the player’s natural fitness is. How well he stays fit when injured or not training. This will help players recover more quickly from injury and will help them to be able to stay fit as they go past their peak

PES:
Actually "Play Stability" is probably translated from french by Yannick. In the English version of PES4/WE8I the descriptions are:

Consistency = Yannick's Play Stability
The higher the number, the better the player's consistency (No ****, lol damn Japs)

Condition/Fintess = Yannick's Condition Stability
The higher the value, the better the player retains their condition even after consecutive games.

So, you're right
Play Staility=Concentration (if indeed Play Stability is during match, damn Konami and their explanation of stats, lol)
and Condition Stability=Consistency

But natural fintess has nothing to do with play stability, so maybe something else should go there. Maybe "important mathes"... Or you can get Yannick to get concentration for us

I used Greece and Enlgand just because they have players I know well. I just thought that you don't have to be a star player to be consistent and fit. In fact there are a lot of mediocre players that play in good teams just because they are consistent or in excellent physical condition. So I just picked two national teams and checked their ratings. It all made more sense once I found out that the top values is acutally 8 (look below)

Never see a player with weak foot accuracy '9'. Maybe Konami thinks '8' is the top limit.

Actually, I just went into the game editor, and 8 IS the top limit lol.

That makes the stability values make more sense now...

I DO like the idea. The problem is, it tweaks a little too much maybe. (max is 7 points, maybe it's ok too.)

In FM Work Rate is not that important (only because the egnine uses all those variables...it's crazy really lol), I think 7 points is maybe too much. How do you do it? Which values are affected?

I like the idea of let 'kicking' be a factor for GK's long pass speed. I don't like let 'throwing' to be one factor for 'short pass'. That's for hands. What would happen when you get a GK to play as a CBT...

Konami says that if a player plays in a position outside his abilities, his skills drop. So I don't think you'd want a GK playing as CB just because he has a little higher short pass accuracy However it is important to have your keeper throw the ball to his teammates properly. Not too important really, just a thought.

Good ideas. You can contact Yannick himself.

Can I have his email please?

Pealse don't get offended, we're only trying to help you improve your work through discussion. I really appreciate your work, mate. Keep it up!

Nikos

 

[pubb]

Was I looking 'offended'? OH, blame my English expressing. I like having discussion with the convertion method.
I took considered what you suggested. But I do think,now too, our discussion better begins from facts instead of theory. Some of your ideas are talented. If they were based on the problems of the current stats, that'll be much more persuasive. That's why I insisted on giving some examples along with your formulas.

The reality is complex. I have weight factors in my formulas. I tried to changed them for many instances. No perfection until now. Because we have no exact definition of KONAMI's stats and well, our understanding of CM's stats definition is not exactly right, maybe. So I have to compare my results with the KONAMI's stats, hoping they two can match a bit exactly. But for most of the time, for each factors, they can be matched, but never exactly. Exactly for one player, confused for another. So I have to admit when the stats 'seem' to be ok, it IS to be ok. I believe the perfection is pursuitable, but no in my 'manual' way. There's maybe a theory in Informatic science to do such things, such as Data Mining, that I don't know entirely.
So I prefer much more to 'what' than 'how much'. Numbers need mathematics.

Some opinions on your idea:

'vision' is an absolutely-mental attribute. 'pass accuracy' is an absolutely-technical thing. When taking passing, 'vision' is important for player's player, not player himself.

'free kick accuracy' in PES is 'accuracy', not simply 'free kick'. I notice you admitted 'corner' need 'free kick accuracy' too. Then factors are not big problems. There're players with higher 'freekick' and there're players with higher 'corner' too.

'Corner' and 'crossing' usually need more 'curving', but high 'crossing' is too common in CM for side players, so I have to drop it although it is useful. If someone tells one player with high curving ability in reality has too low 'curving' in stats, I'll ,and have to, consider it again.

I realize there's probably no players with 'consistency' 20 in CM. So I'll make the results a little higher than the current in the next version. How about '19-20' makes 8 and '17-18' makes 7 and so on?

As for 'work rate', I'd like to tune down a little for such top players as Henry who has relatively low 'work rate'. It'll make the game more balanced rather than more realistic. I wish more would agree with it. How about '19-20' tunes down 0, '17-18' 1, ... and 'below 10' tunes down 5?

I'm not getting offended. I'd be getting offended if you had thought I was offended...I'm not offended now, really.

First off, it seemed from your post that you felt offended. I wasn't criticising your formulas, I was just giving you an idea of what I would ......

 

[pubb]

...
I realize there's probably no players with 'consistency' 20 in CM. So I'll make the results a little higher than the current in the next version. How about '19-20' makes 8 and '17-18' makes 7 and so on?
...

No, I found one player with consistency 20, Carsley in Everton. Maybe more. But it's clear that players with 'condition' 8 in PES are more than players with 'consistency' 20.
Then remain the current or give me a formula for a better one. One fact: most players in PES have 'condition' 4 or 5.

 

[nik0s]

Well then let's do some data mining It's more like statistical analysis in our case, but yeah we can use the default stats to dig out their meaning and relation to the FM stats.

All we have to do is persuade Yannick to export/import FM and PES Option File data to/from a database (Access/ODBC whatever I'll do the code if you want me to) We could do a lot of things from there...And not just for PES4 but for feature versions.Would you ask him to?

'vision' is an absolutely-mental attribute. 'pass accuracy' is an absolutely-technical thing. When taking passing, 'vision' is important for player's player, not player himself.

I see what you mean.

'free kick accuracy' in PES is 'accuracy', not simply 'free kick'. I notice you admitted 'corner' need 'free kick accuracy' too. Then factors are not big problems. There're players with higher 'freekick' and there're players with higher 'corner' too.

This is my only major disagreement, because like I said, corner kicks don't need a high FK rating to be good, while free kicks do. Maybe corners don't even use the FK rating in PES because low FK players hit good corners all the time. But I rarely see a low FK rating player make a FK. Like I said, I believe players with high FK rating shouldn't get penalised because of low corner kick rating. Besides, there are a lot of players that take free kicks, but rarely take corner kicks so their rating in FM is low.

I'll use a player I know well as example. Luciano de Souza is 2nd top scorer in Greek league, one goal below the first. He has scored 15 goals, 8 of which from a FK. He's very skillful at FK but doesn't take corner kicks. His FM stats (with the latest official FM-Greece patch) are:

(AMC/L),Free Kicks:18,Corners:13,Crossing:14

The converter gives: FK accuracy:83, curving:77

While another random SMF I picked from the greek league, who has FK:15,Corners:15 has higher numbers , though he rarely ever takes direct free kicks, and he's never scored any

I guess what i mean is that while corner is a freek kick in a sense, the "Free Kick accuracy" attribute (and curving) in PES is more important for direct free kicks than it is for corners. There are a lot of players who take direct free kicks (and are good at it) but do not take corner kicks, and by that formula they get penalised...An idea is maybe to discard the corner attribute if the FK attribute is high (16 or above for example). FK:18 in FM should be enough to give a player a FK and curving value of around 90 IMO.

'Corner' and 'crossing' usually need more 'curving', but high 'crossing' is too common in CM for side players, so I have to drop it although it is useful. If someone tells one player with high curving ability in reality has too low 'curving' in stats, I'll ,and have to, consider it again.

Curving in PES is iffy. I'll try to sample the default stats and compare with the converted ones. If we could have that import/export feature, it would be very easy

I realize there's probably no players with 'consistency' 20 in CM. So I'll make the results a little higher than the current in the next version. How about '19-20' makes 8 and '17-18' makes 7 and so on?

No, I found one player with consistency 20, Carsley in Everton. Maybe more. But it's clear that players with 'condition' 8 in PES are more than players with 'consistency' 20.
Then remain the current or give me a formula for a better one. One fact: most players in PES have 'condition' 4 or 5.

Well the PES default stats are not very accurate in that area. For example Wayne Rooney has condition 3 in PES but consistency 15 in FM. And for example Zagorakis has condition 7 in PES and consistency 16 in FM. I think we should go by the FM numbers proportionally. So if you just do y=x*8/20 you'd get 8 for 19-20, 7 for 17-18, 6 for 14-16, 5 for 12-13, 4 for 9-11 and so on

And what about Play Stability? I don't think it is related to Natural Fintess at all. If it is "during game" then it's clearly concentration, which we don't have, so maybe you can use a mixture of determination and important matches

As for 'work rate', I'd like to tune down a little for such top players as Henry who has relatively low 'work rate'. It'll make the game more balanced rather than more realistic. I wish more would agree with it. How about '19-20' tunes down 0, '17-18' 1, ... and 'below 10' tunes down

The way you do it now, only a player of Work Rate 20 plays to his full potential, which is not true in FM. Also in FM a high work rate does not affect the players abilities too much, especially for good players. In fact in FM players with low stats and high work rate tend to perform pretty good, while players with high stats and a low work rate don't seem to be affected too much (like Henry).

An idea is maybe to have a reference point over which you tune up and below which you tune down. Say maybe 16. Then 16 would be 0, 17-18 tunes up 1 and 19-20 tunes up 2. Then 15-14 tunes down 1, 13-11 tunes down 2, 10 and below tunes down 3.

 

[pubb]

I'd come to agree on your 'freekick' issue for I notice Pires has a 18 corner and 15 freekick and in KONAMI stats, he has 78/85 for freekickaccu and curving. Maybe you're right. If getting more such players as Pires, it'll be more certain. Thanks for you insist.

For 'condition stability' , maybe the current is just ok since there're players with 'consistency 20' although rare...

For 'play stability', I know it's not exact. I just found 'natural fitness' makes good results. Can you show me some absurdness? Maybe KONAMI thinks so too.

For 'work rate', I like your idea too. I need more opinions before I settle down to change it.

...

Hi all guys listening, would you like to speak out your opinion?

 

[zabe]

About positions: how about using Versatility as a factor?

"Versatility (absolute-technical)
How easily he adapts to playing in unfamiliar positions."

Players like Cocu who can play almost anywhere on the pitch in real life would benefit. In the current conversion (I have version 1.2 of the EDITPES4OPTIONFILE) Cocu only gets DMF and CMF, while in FM he has scores of about 12-14 in positions corresponding CBT and OMF for example. And versatility 20.

So my idea is that players with high versatility get positions with lower scores in the position skills. The question "How much lower?" is open to debate as I'm not familiar with the exact conversion formulas.Tell me what you think.

In addition to Cocu, for example Steven Gerrard would benefit:
Now CMF+SMF, Versatility 20 => should get at least DMF and OMF with Versatility bonus