The Tactical Analysis Thread

[shez]

Originally posted by Sir Didier*CFC
Yeah, that's another good point, and because the wingers arent allowed to try and create in the normal way, the whole midfield ends up going for rediculous longballs and conceding possession immediately. At the moment, the key player to the game in my opinion is the holding midfielder - and to my mind the reason Chelsea are doing so well this season is because Claude Makelele is functioning so much better than Keane of Viera, and the lack of Edu of course. England have a great holding midfielder in Nicky Butt, and in Owen Hargreaves, but Sven really doesnt seem to realise it, he plays Butt wrong, and only brings Hargreaves on when he switches to his stupid defensive mentality. Stupid bastard.

I agree thoroughly mate....

Sven made his name by being a lucky manager in Italy... who are raised on this style of football... score a goal then defend it..

In the game against brazil In WC2002...he was playing one of the poorest defensive teams ever (conceded more than a goal against costarica?) and they were a man down... yet because of his cowardness England were hoofing the ball to the Brazilians insted of controlling the game... The same happened against France and Portugal in Euro2004....

He is paid a lot of money but all what he does is defend while he has a very promising attacking players.... England are always too hyped i know but the likes of Beckham,Joe Cole,Owen,Rooney,SWP,Dyer,Gerrard,Lampard,Defoe and the great defenders and much more can beat anyone if they actually PLAY... very frustrating

Glenn Hoddle was a great tactician in my opinion..He played
a 3-5-2 system which has worked well.. Against Italy in Rome England could've won 1-0 yet they drew 0-0 with a comfortable perofrmance and they had a better possession, then he won LE Tournoi by beating france and Italy with magnificent Attacking displays....too bad he's not a very good man motivator and was afraid Gazza would steal the headlines so he didn't take him to France 98 which LITERALLY cost him the world cup!!

The over reliance on the pace of Owen has killed the possession play for England just as it did to Liverpool, all what you see is an over the top ball to Owen to chase on and it didn't always work as teams have prepared for this danger after what they saw against Argentina from Owen...

England should play with 2 strikers one of them slighlty deeper (naturally Rooney) and 4 hard working Midfielders who will kepp the ball and pass it around... With their Great defence England should do well not necessarily beat everyone but do well!!

 

[Zlatan]

Re: Re: Re: The Tactical Analysis Thread

Originally posted by shez
<-- a member since oct 1999... thankyou for your very intelligent contribution to a serious thread.

Good for you...I don't care if you were registerer 6 days or 6 years ago. Fact remains you think CM 5 is all great etc. That shows some unintelligence about the world of footy management games.

 

[Parra Power]

Re: Re: Re: The Tactical Analysis Thread

Originally posted by shez
<-- a member since oct 1999... thankyou for your very intelligent contribution to a serious thread.

his point was that you want football manager.... it is made by sports interactive, the guys who made cm1-cm0304..... and the only thing CM5 will have in common with previous Cms is the name and the distributors

 

[Virgo]

Originally posted by TOON ARMY
The English players have never been very technically gifted like the Italians,

no, you can count by your fingers the number of great technically gifted italian players over the last two decades.

and at the moment Rooney, Wright Philips and Downing are better technically than any other young player that Italy as at disposal currently.

 

[TOON ARMY]

Originally posted by Virgo
no, you can count by your fingers the number of great technically gifted italian players over the last two decades.

and at the moment Rooney, Wright Philips and Downing are better technically than any other young player that Italy as at disposal currently.

Just how do you define a technically gifted player?

A technically gifted team is one which can keep possession for long amount of times and grind 1-0 wins out regularly just like in the Serie A.

What's good about a few gifted individuals if their team cannot keep the ball?

 

[Virgo]

technique is mainly the individual skills inherent to the touch of the ball, ball control, passing, dribbling, crossing, shooting. All those are technical skills.

What you are referring to is that italian teams and players tend to be very balanced when it comes to technique, but also have always a very cool and intelligent cautious style of play.

Now that cool and cautious way to approach the game can be learned but technical skills are much more difficult. Yes you can see some improvements but you can't teach someone to play like Maradona, it's more about natural talent than anything else. But if you on the other hand look at a player like Figo when he started his career you'd see he was a first class ball hogger, now he's too much of a team player in my opinion.

 

[modena_10]

Originally posted by Virgo
no, you can count by your fingers the number of great technically gifted italian players over the last two decades.

and at the moment Rooney, Wright Philips and Downing are better technically than any other young player that Italy as at disposal currently.

before i disagree, i will ask what do you define as young?

 

[Lean]

Figo now only has about 2 or 3 different plays. Stepover, dribble to the right and cross it on the defender.

 

[Sir Calumn]

Originally posted by shez
I agree thoroughly mate....

Sven made his name by being a lucky manager in Italy... who are raised on this style of football... score a goal then defend it..

In the game against brazil In WC2002...he was playing one of the poorest defensive teams ever (conceded more than a goal against costarica?) and they were a man down... yet because of his cowardness England were hoofing the ball to the Brazilians insted of controlling the game... The same happened against France and Portugal in Euro2004....

He is paid a lot of money but all what he does is defend while he has a very promising attacking players.... England are always too hyped i know but the likes of Beckham,Joe Cole,Owen,Rooney,SWP,Dyer,Gerrard,Lampard,Defoe and the great defenders and much more can beat anyone if they actually PLAY... very frustrating

Glenn Hoddle was a great tactician in my opinion..He played
a 3-5-2 system which has worked well.. Against Italy in Rome England could've won 1-0 yet they drew 0-0 with a comfortable perofrmance and they had a better possession, then he won LE Tournoi by beating france and Italy with magnificent Attacking displays....too bad he's not a very good man motivator and was afraid Gazza would steal the headlines so he didn't take him to France 98 which LITERALLY cost him the world cup!!

The over reliance on the pace of Owen has killed the possession play for England just as it did to Liverpool, all what you see is an over the top ball to Owen to chase on and it didn't always work as teams have prepared for this danger after what they saw against Argentina from Owen...

England should play with 2 strikers one of them slighlty deeper (naturally Rooney) and 4 hard working Midfielders who will kepp the ball and pass it around... With their Great defence England should do well not necessarily beat everyone but do well!!

Absolutely spot on

Totally agree, especially with what you say about Owen, and we all know there's no way Sven will have the balls to cut him or even admit he's not the key man up front, when he hasnt played well for years. The two stiker bit is definately right too, Defoe up front with Rooney just a shade behind him, then a midfield diamond with Butt positioned correctly and Lampard at the tip is definately the way to go.

Did you know that Glen Hoddle has the best record of any England manager for something like the last 20 years? He really knew his stuff, in my opinion we need either a skilled tactician like him (I'm thinking Ranieri) or a passionate motivator (I'm thinking Allardyce), not a wishy-washy non-commital gutless manager who completely lacks all sense of variation and creativity, like Sven.

 

[Virgo]

Originally posted by modena_10
before i disagree, i will ask what do you define as young?

<23

off the top of my head:

Baggio


Zola

Mancini
Totti
Pirlo (just bcs of his passing, the rest isn't THAT good)
maybe Signori or Donadoni but these ones were never among the best

 

[ColumbusGunners]

I don't have the pleasure (some call it pleasure) of watching Italian matches. I once read a great article on AC Milan tactics and counter attacking abilities. Would someone be willing to summarize their tactics for me (formation, players, etc...)?

I also hate to say it but Wenger finally admitted that the current Arsenal squad is not good enough to win the Champions League but he has not admitted that his tactics need to change. From what he admitted it simply sounded like the tactics will stay the same but the players need to improve. I think change in both areas would improve the Gunners chances of European glory.

 

[jani]

AC Milan generally play a 4-3-1-2

Dida

Cafu-Nesta-Maldini-Kaladze

Gattuso-Pirlo-Seedorf

Kaká

Shevchenko-Crespo



The key players in Milan's formation is Cafu and Pirlo.

Cafu does all the runs that make him look like he's 21 down the wing just so he can receive a pass and put the ball into the box. Other than Andrea Pirlo, Cafu is Milan's best assistman.

Pirlo, he is the most unique of players if you ask me. His importance to Milan is too much (Thats why Milan are looking for a backup for him this summer). He plays all the key long ball's (see Sheva's goal vs Barca at Nou Camp). Although his body stature isnt that of a defensive midfielder, he makes decent tackles and instead of just blasting the ball away after winning the ball, he would coolly dribble pass the opposition before threading super passes to Sheva or Kaká.

I see you have mentioned Milan's counter attacking abilities. Im not trying to be arrogant, but usually when Milan play, possession is theirs for most of the game. So counter attacking oppurtunities only come during opposition corner kicks. If you notice, Kaká rarely defends a corner since his speed is the key to Milan's counter attacks. He would usually run some 70 yards into the opposition area and lay the final ball for the stikers. Nowadays, this play from Kaká is rarely utilized since the opposition when caught in this situation, they bring Kaká down early and get themselves a yellow card.

Gattuso is another key in Milan's tactics. He runs tirelessly ala Cafu and wins the ball for Milan. He would usually pass the ball to Pirlo or Seedorf in the middle of the field and then just stay back. And to those who watch Milan games, you would also notice the Milan players never pass the ball to Gattuso unless desperate, cause unfortunately, he doesnt have the creativity like the others have

All in all, I think Milan's success is also down to their bench. Players like Ambrosini would tie the game up when Milan lead. Serginho brings additional pace when Milan are up againts tough defences. Inzaghi and Tomasson are always there should Crespo and Sheva arent in shape. Stam and Costacurta guarentee your defence is air tight whenver needed. Dhorasoo adds another dimension of play and Abbiati is a good keeper who is content with the bench.

I hope I gave a fairly good insight as I myself enjoyed writing this.

 

[QYC]

Bayern plays a 4-4-2 formation and usually goes for an early goal and either defend it, or add to it. We have a defending mentallity and our game revolves around the defence. Our starting 11 is usually:
Kahn - Sagnol, Lucio, Kovac, Lizarazu - Demichelis - Deisler(Salihamidzic), Ballack, Ze Roberto(Schweinsteger) - Pizarro, Makaay

Kahn: The backbone and captain of the team. Has been shaky last year but has rediscovered his form. Makes crucial saves and yells at his team when they're not doing the job right.
Sagnol: Same as Kahn, needed time to find his form. Has been doing well defensively lately and occasionally gets in on the attack. His crossing is OK.
Lucio: Monster of a CB. Usually does well defensively and goes on a journey up front whenever the team needs a wake-up call.
Kovac: The man who cleans up everything Lucio misses. Wins most of his tackles. Never goes up front.
Lizarazu: Covers our left side problem very well. Probably the most involved defender up front.
Demichelis: Naturally a defender, but playing in the DM position helps the team so much. We conceded 3 goals since he started playing in this position. Good passer of the ball.
Deisler: Our most creative midfielder. Very good crossing, always dangerous. Good shots. Great passer, but whenever he is pressured, he will try to score himself.
Ballack: Does not play as well for Bayern as he does for the NT. But still great, controls the midfield very well. His passes and shots are always dangerous. Always present when there is a corner, whichever end it may be in.
Ze Roberto: Another creative player. Great ball control skills, goes on long runs from the defensive end to the offensive. Good feeder of the ball.
Pizarro: Shows up everywhere on the field. Does everything that needs to be done. Good shooting and heading skills.
Makaay: The finisher on the team. Doesnt do much defensively but scores goals.


Usually, Scholl would start if he is fit but he'll just get himself injured again. Without him, we play so much worse up front, thats why we just get one goal and defend it. In the summer, Bayern will definately look for someone like Scholl and get a CB as Linke and Kuffour are almost certain to leave.

We also have quality on the bench with the likes of Brazzo and Schweisteiger. Brazzo can play in any position and Bastian can always hold on to the ball. Rensing is always there if needed. Frings and Hargreaves are also here. They all fit our tactics very well. Magath likes to play a fast, offensive game, but with the team he has, its best to just defend. Hitzfield tried the same thing, but it just doesnt work for this team.

Note: this is all my opinion, and they may not be completely right.

 

[WilliamFAlmeida]

Brasil introduced 4-4-2 to the world in 1970 if Im not mistaken...
zagalo is a genius.

Scolari too with his 5-3-2 (or 3-5-2 depending on how you look at it)

Defenders that are organized and can attack like Cafu and R Carlos is the key to success in my opinion.

 

[santino]

Originally posted by shez
I agree thoroughly mate....

Sven made his name by being a lucky manager in Italy... who are raised on this style of football... score a goal then defend it..

I highly doubt sven's inability to implement a proper system into the English NT is because of the years he spent in Italy coaching in such a defensive way

 

[santino]

Originally posted by Virgo
no, you can count by your fingers the number of great technically gifted italian players over the last two decades.

and at the moment Rooney, Wright Philips and Downing are better technically than any other young player that Italy as at disposal currently.

Baggio, Totti, Cassano, Pirlo, Mancini, Del Piero, Zola, Signori, Schillaci, Giannini, Donadoni, Miccoli

But let's not get into specifics


and your telling me the likes of Rooney, and Downing are better then let's say Cassano? I have to disagree but it's just my opinion

 

[modena_10]

Originally posted by Virgo
<23

ok

refer to santino's post above



santino always reads my mind

 

[jani]

Romanistas



How the hell is Downing mentioned in the same sentence as Pirlo or Cassano?

The guy still has a lot to do.

 

[henry#14]

Not to mention that they all play different positions. Both Cassano and Pirlo's technique is f*cking superb. Downing is good but it's only been 1 season.

 

[Virgo]

yes and apart from Cassano?

You're overrating players like Miccoli anyhow, he's ok but not a GREAT technical player and def not a legend.

About Schillaci and Giannini I don't remember them so I can't comment.

I mentioned Downing in terms of potential..