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UEFA CL 06/07 impressions of the final!

DVC

Club Supporter
cfdemarco;2298145 said:
Also, for some reason every AI opponent on the field can ball handle like Ronaldinho. I've never had so many AI opponents carve there way through my defense single-handedly.

That seems to happen a lot and it can get a little annoying, especially when you are playing low level teams. I ended up switching the level to Pro and it's a slight improvement.

I noticed in Semi-Pro the attacking CPU tend to dribble the ball and shoot rather than look for the pass. In pro it's a little different, while they do still attempt dribbles they are a little smarter and tend to look for a pass or cross rather than Ronaldinho'ing through your defence.
 

renski

Club Supporter
anyone know how to unlock the extras? Like nike boots/footballs... there isn't any fifa shop anymore it seems.
 

roberthan

Club Supporter
Anyone know??

Same as Winning Eleven previous version......
in xb360 UEFA, they take away the audience during match playing......i know they want to save more memory for the players but.......it really decrease the atmosphere......anyone aware this???


:f***: :f***:
 

renski

Club Supporter
It's funny because I noticed that myself... the seats were empty in the first few rows of the stands... you notice it mainly when the player goes to throw the ball in.
 

cfdemarco

Reserve Team
OK, this game is beginning to get on my nerves a bit...

Just tried (and failed) for the third time to beat the second challenge (where Spurs must come back from 0-1 to qualify for CL). It's bad enough that every AI opponent can ball handle like Ronaldinho, but evidently every AI goalkeeper is as good as Buffon as well. For some reason the AI keepers can make spectacular saves on shots from within the box or on breakaways almost every time, yet the AI attackers can slice right through my defense just by feigning left or right and then put a perfect shot past my keeper.

And for some reason AI opponents are always faster than you, no matter who you're playing with, and they ALWAYS win 50/50 balls.

I'm all for a challenging game, but it's not like the AI teams really outplay or outstrategize you...they don't work the ball around the entire field, they don't play through balls, they don't use give and go's...they just feign left or right and the user-controlled players are too sluggish to react in time.
 

jackbauer

Youth Team
cfdemarco;2298521 said:
OK, this game is beginning to get on my nerves a bit...

Just tried (and failed) for the third time to beat the second challenge (where Spurs must come back from 0-1 to qualify for CL). It's bad enough that every AI opponent can ball handle like Ronaldinho, but evidently every AI goalkeeper is as good as Buffon as well. For some reason the AI keepers can make spectacular saves on shots from within the box or on breakaways almost every time, yet the AI attackers can slice right through my defense just by feigning left or right and then put a perfect shot past my keeper.

And for some reason AI opponents are always faster than you, no matter who you're playing with, and they ALWAYS win 50/50 balls.

I'm all for a challenging game, but it's not like the AI teams really outplay or outstrategize you...they don't work the ball around the entire field, they don't play through balls, they don't use give and go's...they just feign left or right and the user-controlled players are too sluggish to react in time.

Wow. Sounds like PES.
 

Aragorn

Reserve Team
UEFA Champions League 06-07 REVIEW

EA presents this new soccer game, much better now than FIFA 07, overall in the gameplay, A.I., movements, etc. One of the great new things is the Ultimate Team Mode, kinda Magic, but with soccer, thing that gives to the game a PLUS. Not needed to say that you can play aswell the UEFA CL in all of his splendorm, and many other modes.

GAMEPLAY
I decided to start the review with this option first instead of graphics, because each time seems that EA works and works more on this part with great results, not all in life are graphics!!.

The first thing that you will notice is "hey man, this players and ball are not the same!!" and yes, gameplay is much much improved from FIFA 07. A more paceful game brings you the chance of to elaborate a lot more all the plays (not all is to play on the wings, like in the old fifas), you can pass and pass and pass until find the space for to create your goal chance, making the game more realistic. Now the midfields and defenders are really importants, with his improved A.I, and all is much more responsive, as in the players as in the controls. Ball physics are amazing, really well done, the game has the same thing about that "the ball goes appart from players", but in this version is much more accuratte, is not so BOUNCE like in in FIFA07.

Talking about bounce, players collisions are simply great, now when you want to do a "light" tackle, players dont bounce like in 07, they really fight for the ball, and is more difficult, is not so easy as to press the tackle button and wait for the player make the job, you must to be well positioned and make the tackle in the right time. Strong tackles are really great, and you can feel when you did a good one (with a great satisfaction of to break the opponent play and to go with the ball on your boots) or a bad one (with your consequent yellow card).

The CPU A.I is really improved, as may people said, to play in semi-pro is not so easy as it seems, you must to work hard in the field, and this feeling of to do a great job on the field is awarded with a consequent goal, thing that makes you up of your sofa saying "yessss!!!" after a nice play. Must to say that the the new camera angle "television" helps a lot on this, is not so close like in FIFA, is just in the right position.

You will notice too that long passes are more acurate now, you can feel the ball weight and how your players put the ball on the field after a long pass, etc...

Head shots are impresive, there´s more spectacular head diving shots, overall when you make a low long pass and the forward is looking for to score.

Finally, controls seems more responsive too, not like in a arcade game, i mean, many reviews claims against that the controls are not responsive, this is not true, the controls are responsive, but the players have weight and you must to play a few games until you achieve the "timming" for to do all the actions, making the game more realistic yet (in FIFA07 may be was too much exagerated, now is really ok). If you want and arcade game where you players can turn 180 degrees in 0.0000002 seconds without break their legs, this is not your game. There´s not TRICK moves yet, but each time is minus necesary, you will realize about how players can do a lot of tricks simply with left stick, like foot to foot, stop and go on one defender, etc..etc..is cool.

And like always, multiplayer is totally out of lag.

There´s only a couple things that could be improved, as the select player button when you are defending, stills not so exact as you wish, but it works well. Another thing is that the goalkeepers are more difficult to pass than in FIFA07, they cover really well the spaces, and believe me, you must to do a great work on this part to achieve the goal, you will "sweat" until to score a goal if you play games kinda Liverpool - Barça, etc. This happends overall in good teams with good goalkeepers (Casillas, Valdes, Reina, etc....) some people will find this more realistic, others will find not so realistic, this part is up to you, but personally, i preferd a 1-0 or 2-1, than a 7-5, you know what i mean. But this is not a defect itself, if you play well, making good pases, posession, etc...your team morale is going up, making this task more easy.

MODES/LONGEVITY

Here, you have a lot of options. "Quick Game",,, To "Play the UEFA CL" with any team that you want from 5 leagues (Premier, LaLiga, Bundesliga, Serie A, French League, plus Rest of Teams), with celebration include at the end!!!, a "Challange Mode", where you can play 42 diferent situations of the pasts UEFA CL editions and rewritte the history, "Online Play" up to 8 players, and the great "Ultimate Team Mode", that is deep as hell. All of this without count all the rest of options, like transfers, edit/create players, line ups, attack/defense movements, etc...etc...etc.

The new Ultimate Team Mode is really adictive and great, the idea of to start from zero, with 15 dumb players, like in a 3rd division team, and going into win and win macthes for to gain points and to go up levels and to buy new players until achieve the team of your dreams and to win the Champions League is simply great. All of this this without count with the special cards, like trainners, contracts extends, better form, or inclusive cards that you can use while you are playing a macth, like to have 15 minutes of great stamina for your players, or bad stamina for oponnet one player, etc. You will expend great minutes making your team as good as possible "chemistry", players from the same country speaks the same language and they understand themself much better, or they have a preferd position or system, etc, etc.

And the great thing is that all this things are totally reflected on the field. If you have done a great work on this part, the macth will be more easy (is nice to see how your players improve after each macth). As i said, this kind of 30% RPG and 60% soccer is simply brillant. At the beggining i was not so convinced about this option, but after playing 10 macthes you cannot leave it!!. Furthermore, you can sell your cards or buy new ones on LIVE, or complete albums and unlock boots, balls, stadiums, etc.. GREAT.

GRAPHICS

Without comments....absolutelly AWESOME. The stadiums are simply amazing, to play at night with all that lights (you can play at day, afternoon or night on the same long list of FIFA07 stadiums plus a new stadium, the one that appears on the demo). All the atmosphere is well done, like in a TV macth, the crows roars meanwhile players enter in the field of this great stadium.
Players are simply brillant done, you will notice that are a bit more accurate than in FIFA07...for R.Madrid fans, finally there´s a GUTI face!!!...and other players new faces. Kits, balls, and boots are smooth and well done and, etc, etc....all you can imagine from EA games on this part. More fluid animations, new enter scenes (3 or 4 each time that your team goes to the field), new replay angles "3 replays per goal", and the cool thing, new animations scenes on celebrating goals, or after a tackle like the one the player is saying that he touched the ball and not the player while you can see this player make the round form of the ball, other animations like bad faces or shoulder "touches" in yellow cards, etc...etc. There´s no words for this part, is simply perfect. Inclusive the detail of real advertisements of the UEFA CL, like PS3 on a 360!!.

SOUND

As good as graphics. Lot of chants from the crowd "You will never walk alone" "Barça, Barça, Barça!!!" "Madrid!!.......Madrid!!!", etc...etc. Each team has 5 or 6 diferent chants, almost the teams that i tested. Crowd roars as i said on the enter the teams, after each goal, screaming during the macth when you are near to score a goal, aplausses when you break an opponent play, etc. Plus a great comments (i talk about spanish version) from LaLaguna and Pepe Domingo Castaño, from La Cadena Ser, that gives a more realistic thing to the game...with all the players names, great and funny comments after a tackle, etc. Is clear that there´s a lot of phrases, hundreds and hundreds, but after to play 100 games, some of them can be repetitive, all has limits. I still thinking that the speaker thing when the game is near to finish or in the half time, talking about a card bad parked is so great. Pure class on this part too. There´s not a long MUSIC SCORE on this part, like in FIFA07, but, did you really buy a soccer game for to have 25 songs?

FINAL COMMENTS/ LAST APEAL

If you enjoyed with FIFA07 but you though, "this can be better", and you dont care to dont play with national teams or the IGN reviews, take your FIFA07, sell it and buy this great game, is much much better. Until now, and in my oppinion, the best soccer game for our 360.

GRAPHICS: 9.0
GAMEPLAY: 8.7
SOUND: 8.5
MODES/LONGEVITY: 8.8
LAST APPEAL: 8.6

TOTAL SCORE: 8,7
_________________

Take care

neovico
The Mind
 

cfdemarco

Reserve Team
OK, I'm done with this game.

I've had it with the absurd AI. The computer will score at least one goal per game in which one attacker will slice through five of my defenders like they aren't even there...and nine times out of ten it will come when you've just gone ahead in the 88th minute of a challenge.

EA had this fantastic idea back when they made FIFA 07 of giving players realistic "weight" or whatever when they can no longer turn on a dime...so the result now is that if an opponent is going right and you go right, when they turn and go left you can't turn your defender in time to have a chance. It's the only move you can do in the game, and evidently there is no defending it, and that's what the AI attackers do all game. Dribble right STOP cut left dribble left STOP cut right dribble right STOP cut left etc etc etc.

Sorry for the rant, but I've given up an absurd 90th minute goal to lose a challenge for the last time.
 

Aragorn

Reserve Team
I dont know my friend, but i passed this challange on the first try winning it by 1-3 for the Spurs. About your description i think that i know whats the problem, let´s see.

This macth is not easy to be honest, and the Spurs seems a bit tired for some reason, the other team runs more fast, so, you must to do more passes for to make tired the other team.

About the defence, i think that you do something bad, i mean, im sure that you are pressing the RUN button and the LIGHT tackle button at the same time....and this does not works. If some of your players are running fast, you cannot control your tackle, so, the first thing that you must to do is to be well positioned on the defense, run to be in front of the opponent and look for the right time and then press for a light or strong tackle. Remember, running and tackle at the same time is SO MUCH difficult.

Other option is to possition your defender in front of the opponent and call for a second defender, then the second defender can stole the ball, if not, you are there in front for another tackle. The CPU dribbling is really good on this challange, so all is a well positioned thing and dont run too much.

Another advice, when you score almost 2 goals, try to maintain possesion and let the time pass, as in real life, it works.

Hope that it helps.

Take care

neovico
The Mind
 

cfdemarco

Reserve Team
Aragorn;2298782 said:
I dont know my friend, but i passed this challange on the first try winning it by 1-3 for the Spurs. About your description i think that i know whats the problem, let´s see.

This macth is not easy to be honest, and the Spurs seems a bit tired for some reason, the other team runs more fast, so, you must to do more passes for to make tired the other team.

About the defence, i think that you do something bad, i mean, im sure that you are pressing the RUN button and the LIGHT tackle button at the same time....and this does not works. If some of your players are running fast, you cannot control your tackle, so, the first thing that you must to do is to be well positioned on the defense, run to be in front of the opponent and look for the right time and then press for a light or strong tackle. Remember, running and tackle at the same time is SO MUCH difficult.

Other option is to possition your defender in front of the opponent and call for a second defender, then the second defender can stole the ball, if not, you are there in front for another tackle. The CPU dribbling is really good on this challange, so all is a well positioned thing and dont run too much.

Another advice, when you score almost 2 goals, try to maintain possesion and let the time pass, as in real life, it works.

Hope that it helps.

Take care

neovico
The Mind


Thanks for the advice. Maybe I'll give it a try again later on. It's just so frustrating when you start losing the same way time and time again.

As for the Spurs challenge, yes, the entire team had food poisoning right before the game! They even actually make a comment about it during the challenge.
 

Aragorn

Reserve Team
You´re welcome mate.

I have a question. I realize after a few LIVE macthes, that there´s an option that puts COOPERATIVE....so...this means that i can play together with a friend, that is in another 360, against the cpu, kinda GOW (2 vs CPU, 4 vs CPU) or it means that up to 8 is to have 4 controllers in the same 360 against another friend with a 360 with 4 controllers too????

By the way, ultimate mode is killing me, i cannot stop to play and play games for credits for to buy new and great players....what the hell,,,,is so adictive to see your own team (i puted the name of my street) playing against Auxere, Racing, etc....and each time it becomes better and better. I hope to have in a weeks a Ronaldinho, Etoo, Henry, Kaka, etc,,, team. ;)

Take care

neovico
The Mind
 

OrgulloVikingo

Senior Squad
:jambo: Good positive review Neovico. It gives me hope. I should be getting my copy on Monday. I've heard so many mixed reviews but I do like the demo quite a bit...I think it is much better than Fifa 2007. I've played 10-15 games in the demo and went to play Fifa 2007 yesterday and found it kind of dated and unplayable after the CL demo...a good sign for sure. Quick question Neo (if you still don't hold the grudge against me)...Are the stadiums newly designed? What killed me about the Fifa 2007 stadiums is that the stadiums were all aliased (jagged edges) and they weren't accurate. For example, the Bernabeu stadium had the South and North end seats wayyy to far back from the goals, is this corrected? also, I hope crowds have flags, banners, etc. Do they? This is extremely important in CL matches. Fans play a very important role during these matches. I'd like to see team flags and banners like in real life. To me, it would totally kill the game if it didn't have these. Anyone that knows CL knows that the fans are very very important, they make the atmosphere that is synonomous with the CL games. I think there is a trophy celebration, no? If not, this would be greatly disastrous. A CL game without the opportunity to see you lift the CL trophy????? This can't be. Thanks! Oh, great to hear that Guti doesn't look like the guy from the movie "In the Mouth of Madness'!!! Finally, I am under the impression that you can play with 3 other players online on the same team! Anyone confirm this? That would be great. I'm assuming each one of the 4 players control certain players only, for example, player 1 controls forwards, 2 controls, defense, etc....anyone confirm this? Later!
 

Aragorn

Reserve Team
There´s no grudge here man.

Let´s ask you. The stadiums are simply impresive, overall at night, because the lights of the stadiums are much better than fifa, they reflects on the camera, etc.., it has a real CL ambience, and if you take a look to the shadows, how players cast them over the field, etc, etc...the cam that follows the ball on the field on the replays, etc, is great. Night is spectacular for the lights thing, and day is great by all the sunny shadows things. I notice the stadiums are improved but the jagged edges can depends of what monitor or tv do u have. On a 42" HDTV plasma all is glory, and i didnt see any noticeable jagged effect.

The seats for North and South goal still a bit far, is the double distance from the real Bernabeu, but rest is so acurate as hell. It has not so importance, almost for me.

Stadiums has flags, for R.Madrid the tipicals White flag with the the club logo, anothers in White/Blue, etc...Dont wait for "Orgullo Vikingo" or "ULTRAS" flags, there´s no in this game. But is cool to see that the stadium is totally decorate as the real one, with the CL blue logo/white ball along each grade, plus the official sponsors ads on the field.

Yes, there´s a trophy celebration, i didnt finish the game, but i saw it on videos, and this celebration is not an intro or a pre-rendered scene, this celbration is a ingame scene.

_________________________

So, i use this change to talk about the reviews, believe i cannot understand some things. Last one, Gamespot gives an 7,6 to this game, so let´s comment a few things.

Without offence please, but seems that USA people that have not idea about football (or soccer) is always the same people that makes the soccer reviews (nevermind about where are from IGN guys, they are PES fans). So, going from this point, i want to remark some sentences written on this review:

"UEFA Champions League's unique method of building teams by collecting player cards makes up for the fact that it's EA's fourth soccer game for the 360 in just over a year."

First, the card thing is not the ONLY option in the game, as many reviews want to give this feeling, is a cool mode, but not the only one. Yes, EA made with this 4 soccer games in a year.....and?? They have not in mind that this one is from another design and programmers group from EA Canada, not the same people from FIFA 07. I dont know why is so important to remark this sentence again and again. Almost FIFA or UEFA games appears at the same time and week around the world....or do u preferd to wait 1 year to play a PES or WE game on USA meanwhile Europe is playing it???

"game controls poorly at times"

This is the typical phrase that say a guy that after playing a few games found soccer to much difficult and preferd to play the great realistic thing of "Virtua Tennis 3", ahemm.....is curios, so much ads of this game on Gamespot, and with a great review.....money rules my friends.

So turning to the controls, they are great, much better than 07 and realistic at 90%. If you dont know how to play soccer is not reason to give a poor 7 to the gameplay, a gameplay that is really improved since 07 was released (ball has his own movements besides of the players, etc..)

" poor instruction manual"

I think that is the first time that i read this, pffff.... what do you want guys, and encyclopedia of soccer????? In sure that this guy from the review has not idea about "when is outside??"....anyway.

"You'll need to work the ball around the field using precision passes to exploit any holes in the defense. This is made more difficult than it should be thanks to some erratic passes that often don't go anywhere near where you were aiming."

Sure, in real life, all passes from soccer players are perfect, they dont make mistakes.....pffff....my god. If you pass bad this means that you putted bad your direction on the analogue stick...simply as this.

"the default camera angle is farther away. This makes it easy to monitor large parts of the field, but it doesn't show off the player models as well as a close camera would. There are a few zombie-faced players that look like they came from Dead Rising, but for the most part, they look quite good."

Tell me which ones?? All the faces are arranged and fixed for this game, including new faces, as the Guti one (perfect) that i was talking about, this is totally uncertain. If you want to talk about zombie-faced i can put some firts planes of the PES faces for the 360 here, overall Puyol or Eto´o faces....they are so accurated!!!!, a game rated to 8,1 by the way.

"There are around 20 stadiums"


NO, there´s 24 stadiums including the new one for the CL, plus each stadium has night, day and most of them include afternoon too.

An finally they give an 8 to the graphics, (muahahaha....is awesome...the graphics are the best on a soccer game). And a 7 to the sound (sure, they want a great score for this, like 25 Madonna songs or something like that).

It seems that im working on EA after this phrases, well....i was always a fan of PES series for the PS2 because they were great until WE10, but since FIFA 07 appears, and now more with this great game of CL, is impossible to say that EA is not touching the top until now, almost on the 360.

So, if you want to do a review, please, first of all be honest (this game is reviewed from 6 to 8,3 in different websites and magazines...so the business thing is clear here), play the game almost for a week (leave this Virtua or Wario games for children, please), explore it well, and be serious on your work, but dont blame and claim freely, only for bussiness, because ignorance is a bad thing, and more when you are paying a lot of money for a game that thanks to things like that, you dont know if to buy it or not. Almost, to rent and after it buy it is a good option in front of this really bad done reviews.

Take care

neovico
The Mind
 

OrgulloVikingo

Senior Squad
If I didn't know you better I'd guess you work for EA NEovico. Only cause you only get on these boards when a new EA game comes out to praise it. I do like the demo..the only thing I hate is that taking the ball away seems a bit weird, too physical. As if the Computer predicts where you will go, etc. And I also notice that directions of the passes are often off (not due to me hitting the analog stick in the wrong way). I've actually tested passing in 2-3 games as I did crosses, shooting, etc...to see how well the gameplay is so no, I did not aim in the wrong direction. That said, I like everything else about the demo. Gfx are superb, presentation and audio as well. Downloaded the PES demo and no, not interested in playing a last gen quality game on my next gen 360, no thanx!
 

renski

Club Supporter
One major improvement in UEFA:

The computer's defence is more realistic. They no longer get out of sticky situations so easily, like when they have the ball in one of the corners, instead of them making some impossible pass or long ball to get the ball out of the area they kick it into touch and you get the throw in. This usually happens if you pressure them enough in defence.

The goal keeper no longer makes ridiculous saves either.. the computer is still hard to play against, its just its more difficult in a realistic way... rather then impossible difficult.
 

Aragorn

Reserve Team
OrgulloVikingo;2299752 said:
If I didn't know you better I'd guess you work for EA NEovico. Only cause you only get on these boards when a new EA game comes out to praise it. I do like the demo..the only thing I hate is that taking the ball away seems a bit weird, too physical. As if the Computer predicts where you will go, etc. And I also notice that directions of the passes are often off (not due to me hitting the analog stick in the wrong way). I've actually tested passing in 2-3 games as I did crosses, shooting, etc...to see how well the gameplay is so no, I did not aim in the wrong direction. That said, I like everything else about the demo. Gfx are superb, presentation and audio as well. Downloaded the PES demo and no, not interested in playing a last gen quality game on my next gen 360, no thanx!

Yes, it seems but not. I could say how it sucks nba live 07 for 360 too....I have a lot of PES reviews man, search for them, indeed i expend months and months making faces for PES since PES3 for pc, but, as i said, now UEFA CL rules, simply as this.

About the "pass thing", i dont understand whats the problem. It works really good for me. Try to change the passing help controls, etc...may be you will find the right combination.

Take care

neovico
The Mind
 

OrgulloVikingo

Senior Squad
Just finished playing about 10 games in the final version. Much better than 07 for sure. New animations are superb, graphics are excellent especially stadium detail. I won't be playing 07 anymore. Very very short review summary based on the few games I've played:

UEFA CL
Gameplay: 8.0
Graphics: 8.5
Audio: 9.0
Presentation: 8.5


and...how I rated Fifa 07:

Gameplay: 7.0
Graphics: 7.5
Audio: 8.0
Presentation: 7.5

Haven't tried online yet or Ultimate Team, CL mode...
 

cfdemarco

Reserve Team
Just finished my first run through the Champion's League. Won it with Milan.

13-0-0, 48 goals scored, 4 allowed. Set record for most overall goals, most individual goals (Ronaldo, 14), most clean sheets (Dida, 10), biggest single game win (8-0 over Valencia) and biggest aggregate win (11-0 over Valencia), as well as longest winning streak (13). This was on semi-pro by the way.

I was having a lot more trouble in the Challenges, both scoring and defending...but most of the teams you play with in the qualifying round challenges aren't good, so I guess playing with a team as good as Milan made life a lot easier. And my goodness, Milan is loaded with talent. Their lineup reads like an all-star team.

I looked on my profile details, and evidently I unlocked something...but I'll be darned if I know WHAT it is I unlocked.

I think I'll go through the tournament a few more times, with an English team and a Spanish team, then get into the Ultimate Team mode.
 

Aragorn

Reserve Team
Anybody happends that on Ultimate Team, all the macthes on the opponent court are played on Camp Nou? There´s no night macthes until you arrive to the top of gold?? Thanks in advance.

UTM Line up

Ronaldinho -- T.Henry --- Eto´o

Kaka---- Deco-- Lampard----C.Ronaldo

J.Terry-------Puyol----Zambrotta

Casillas

Take care

neovico
The Mind
 

roberthan

Club Supporter
Aragorn;2301501 said:
Anybody happends that on Ultimate Team, all the macthes on the opponent court are played on Camp Nou? There´s no night macthes until you arrive to the top of gold?? Thanks in advance.

UTM Line up

Ronaldinho -- T.Henry --- Eto´o

Kaka---- Deco-- Lampard----C.Ronaldo

J.Terry-------Puyol----Zambrotta

Casillas

Take care

neovico
The Mind




for me, seems all away game in stamford bridge.....and yes , up to now there is no night game so far.....whyone the same>>>???
also we need audience during match...even though they are not in motion...we also need them to be pasted back in the stand
 


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