ABOUT THE KEWELL DIVING INCIDENT

[Canoe]

Kewell - okay, perhaps not 99%, but let's say 90%. Most diving occurs when players make a meal out of a challenge, ie they were barely touched and they fall like a boeing has landed on top of him. But I can honestly say that in the prem league games I watch, diving caused by a challenge a foot away from the player is scarce, very scarce. Ginola dives regularly, but I've never seen him go down with the offending player a foot away.
And to say that Kewell was not proud of it is bollox and you know it. Look at the way he jumped up and hugged his teammates in delight. That sure showed everyone how sorry he was. And yes, it makes him a big time cheat, cause he wasn't even challenged for the ball when he dived. Most penalties come from late challenges and sometimes the attacker just leaves a leg trailing and is thus 'fouled'. Now unless there was a mighty big ant in the grass there that fouled Kewell I'll stick to my 'he cheated to gain leeds 3 points' statement.
"Does this make every player who has ever dived a cheat????????????????" Well, before I answer this, define cheat. To me a player cheats when he tries to gain a distinct advantage for his team by lowdown dirty tactics. Someone who fakes injury to get another player sent off - CHEAT. Player who dives without contact being made to gain a penalty - CHEAT. Player who deliberately uses his hands to either score or prevent a goal - small cheater. So does this make every player that has ever dived a cheat ?? No, only those that do so where no contact was made in an effort to get a penalty awarded.
Arsenal are good because they have money, yeah, that makes sense. That's why Newcastle is down where they are, but why is Sunderland up so high, they haven't got money ??
And funny how everybody thinks Arsenal will fall apart when the famous back five retires. I doubt it , cause we'll have Silvinho, Upson, Weston and Luzhny, with quite a few more youngsters being able to step up if need be.
As for the internationals on the bench, at least when we're in need of a goal near the end we can bring on Henry and Suker, Silvinho and Ljungberg, we don't need to rely on one of our stars diving for a penalty to salvage points or win a game.

polishpower - he dived, but either way he's a cheat, cause if he did trip he should've brought it to the attention of the ref which he didn't do.
The netcamera idea is good.
An idea for the 4th official would be to have someone watch basically what the director gets( mutliple screens and angles ) and if there's doubt concerning a penalty decision the 4th official should comment on what he saw on screen. Even if he watched something like the sky digital channel they have got going where you can get 2 different angles then that'll help too. If he can't give a definitive yes or no, then the ref on field has the call. No watching replays, that would be too inconvenient. The same goes for a sending off. If the two refs are in contact with each other a quick sentence from the 4th ref who watches the tele regarding the situation as he saw it on tv will help eradicate unnecessary red cards and penalties.

 

[Drinky UKSN]

I think much of this argument has been stoked by Manchester United fans who have thrown their toys out of the cot over a small incident. If they can't cope with the idea of a side winning matches apart from them, thats fine. Its not as if scum fans haven't had their fair share of lucky refereeing decisions in recents years (Referee: Another minute of stoppage time, Alex? <lick lick> ). As a centre-back myself, that was definitely a penalty. Kewell had Carbonari on the ropes and was brought down. There was no element of diving in there. The referee and the linesman were both in agreeent, so what does that say? To all the tantru-throwing Scum fans out there - grow up and accept that luck is a two-way thing.

 

[BelfastBoy]

I don't think Manchester United fans had anything to do with this, people in general don't like cheaters. Plus Kewell needs a haircut and that is not debatable, it looks like a beaver has died on his head and he spent all day blow drying it, maybe that was weighing him down and once he lost his balance he just fell hard. I don't know, but that was a dive, almost as bad as Overmars against Manchester United last year in the cup semi.

 

[edu]

You people are so ****ing naive, every single player that has a chance of having a penalty awarded even if he has to dive for it, will take that chance. Its not like kewell is the only one doing it.

It seems that Kewell is the only one that doesnt know how to dive, thats why hes being flamed, if he was more hipocrit like the rest of the divers or the people flamming him he would have said that he was pushed/triped.

 

[Canoe]

Don't you all think it's funny that this whole issue was brought up by Kewell. Somehow he deemed it necessary to defend the real life Kewell's diving. It wasn't even as if this was a provoked arguement/discussion.

Drinky - Please refrain from making dumb comments. Kewell supports leeds, goonerbhoy is self explanatory, Polish is an american who's too afraid or clever to pick a side ( or mention it to this forum ), ozivillan with his up the Villa remark could only support one team, woody007 seemingly supports Arsenal, which leaves just you and me left up till your post. Now I definitely ain't no man utd supporter, and neither are you. So please let me know what man utd fans stoked this argument ?? And funny that you say it was definitely a penalty, cause even Kewell here admitted to it being a dive and not worthy of a penalty. And if the linesman and ref was in agreement, and it was no dive, then why the hell did the tele show a different thing ?
Belfastboy - Good call on the hair thing.
Edu - not so I'm afraid. If everybody dived everytime they had a chance the sport would be changed to soccer diving and computer games would reflect this by having a diving skill for every player. Now I know this probably gonna be the worst example ever, but when Anelka was through on a keeper he would tap the ball past and slot it home, not tap the ball too far and have his foot caught by the advancing keeper and get a penalty. In the end it comes down to the player and his believe in his talents. If he knows he can score he'll try and do that. If he's low on confidence and doubting his skills he'll rather dive and get the penalty than to try and score and make an utter mess of it all. An example of this type of person is Kanu, take the game against chelsea for instance. Right at the death he had the ball near the box against the line with de goey out to try and stop him. He tapped it past de goey, ran round and slotted home from a narrow angle. Had this been a different player he might've tapped it past and then looked to get a touch from the goalie to go down. Just cause some players cheat don't say all players look to cheat every opportunity.

 

[Drinky UKSN]

The argument has been stoked up (in Britain) by Manchester United fans largely, which is why it became so high profile. As for your comment that 'And if the linesman and ref was in agreement, and it was no dive, then why the hell did the tele show a different thing ?', don't be a moron. Neither of them have the benefit of TV replays, and if you see the incident at full speed, rather than the super-slo-mo that TV stations served up, then you'll see why the referee, linesman, and myself believed it was a penalty.

 

[edu]

Canoe- Do you watch soccer games at all? since when strikers try to dive when they are that close to the goal in those 2 cases that you mention.

At least 2 or 3 times in a game we see player diving OUTSIDE the box for a foul and at least once inside the box when he doesnt have a chance at scoring (on a cross or surrounded by defence) but in most cases the referee notice the dive and warns the players or give him a yeallow card.

And most of those dives happens when the defence is shoulder to shoulder with the striker and its very hard to run like that and even harder scoring.

 

[Canoe]

Drinky, as an alleged centre-back who claims that it was definitely a penalty you sure were wrong. Firstly, while watching the match at full speed I thought it was a dive. The fact that the linesman and ref was in agreement doesn't make it a correct one does it ? I find it very funny that you still cling to the it was a penalty thing when everybody else has recognised it to be a dive and not worthy of a penalty. As for man utd fans stoking up the dive, I should definitely contact Sky sports cause they certainly thought it was a dive and made a lot of noise bout it, I just didn't know they were man utd fans.

Edu - Nope, I don't watch soccer games at all. I read newspapers and base all my arguments on that.
As for the 2 cases, Nic anelka was more a general comment as he did that on many occassions and never dived. But this is one of the most common dives, the one where the ball was tapped past the keeper with the keeper already sliding in to stop it, but the attacker just let's himself get fouled by the outstretched arms of the keeper. Need an example, Argentina vs England WC. But which team and what player, seeing as I forgot to read the newspaper that day.
As for Kanu, did u actually watch the game or did u read bout it in the newspaper like me ?? Kanu was outside the box when de goey met him, on the goalline. De goey couldn't touch the ball for obvious reasons, so Kanu touched it past him, got the ball just inside the box, still very close to the goalline and without hesitating curled his shot in.
You say that players dive when they don't have a chance at scoring ? Let's take the Chelsea Arsenal game again, Kanu got a low cross in the box, surrounded by defenders, and what did he do ? He controlled it like only he can with thos no 11s, dragged the ball to the side, slipped past a defender and hammered it past de goey.
I've never said diving doesn't exist or that players don't dive or anything like that, but you made it sound( or rather you said ) like every single player that has a chance of having a penalty awarded even if he has to dive for it. I'm sorry, but there are many players out there who wouldn't dive even if given the opportunity to do so. Just cause some players cheat don't say everybody does.

 

[Drinky UKSN]

Is that the same Sky Sports that tried to buy Manchester United for £623 million recently? I wouldn't trust their opinions. The slo-om caera shows, if you watch carefully, that there is contact. If you are up on your laws of physics, then you'll probably see that the smallest piece of contact will send something of that sort of momentum to the ground. If contact is made, its a penalty. And contact was made. You can talk examples and replays and rubbish, but that is the bottom line, and Carbonari made contact with Kewell. Full stop.

 

[greglato]

The blatant diving could be easilly be eliminated. For a blatant dive where there is no contact you get a very long ban [1year 2years life] I don't care how long exactly, just a really long time that you would never want to do it because it would basically end your career. I guarantee you, no one would be diving without contact.

If the dive isn't caught during the game they should look a the tape from all angles after the game just so players know they can't get away with it.

To try and limit less blatent diving where there is some contact there should be more refs. There should be a ref behind each goal to look at the game from an angle the other ref can't see.

If a player is rolling around in agony he should not be able to come back for 5 minutes. If he is really injured then he needs this time to rest but if he is faking he is hurting his team.

 

[PolishPower]

Gregolato what are you talking about 1 year ban? well it will never happen so not even worth discussing. I do like the 5 minute idea, but for the person who commited the foul!

What about the other side of the coin, the "professional fouls" when the last defender brings down the striker from behind, or when defender uses intentional hand to stop the ball from going in the net, or how about keepers leaving the line before the penalty kick is taken? Someone once said i'll stop diving when the defenders stop fouling me... my point is both sides cheat and its up to the refs to punish the cheaters. Red cards and reasonable suspensions would do that.

I have to agree with canoe, the slotting of the ball past the keeper or defender and then dragging your back foot to cause contact with defender or goalkeepers arm is very common form of the dive. If you ever saw those stupid shoot outs in MLS, Roberto Donadoni would use that move to get penalties all the time, it was his signature move!

I saw only the long angle real time of the kewell goal and it looked like a foul to me. However I did not see the two angle super slow mo replays so I take everyone's word for it.

I have to say it is strange because sometimes a player will try to score, but at another time the same player will take a dive. Case in point Ronaldo. The man made his name for being a player who would not go down even when defenders were hanging on his back. But now sometimes he takes a dive. Maybe its the coaches at Inter...

By the way- my team is in the 4th Division and no one here im sure ever heard of it, and Metro Stars.

[This message has been edited by PolishPower (edited 12-18-1999).]

 

[GOONERBHOY]

The other night at 6-a-side a guy got sent off for a challenge on me. I thought it was clean (it was) so i was just getting up to play on when the ref blows the whistle and sends the guy off because my teamates were protesting. Now i was disgusted with my fellow teamates and by the decision just as much as the other guy and after the game he came and shook my hand and said fackin ref eh. and i explained how clean i tought it was, and that he only called it cause of my team mates, and we lodged a complaint about the ref. So no hard feelings and everyone just hates the ref.

But thinking of that it made me wonder what kind of person would actually dive and get this player sent off for doing nothing wrong. theres nothing better than seeing a player sent off for diving lets see more of it.

 

[Sella]

Referees are in an extremely hard position, making tough calls that decide games. Take, for example, Var der Sar's heroic block with his chest (outside of pen. area) which the referee questionably sent him off for on account of alleged handball. You can blame the referee, but he is in a nearly impossible situation, taking the heat if he makes a mistake...same goes for Kewell.

Regarding his dive, I don't think there should be any punishment more extreme than a yellow card for faking. If you like it or not, it's part of the game and evidently Kewell was talented enough to use it wisely. Even as a fan of a club that's contending with Leeds for Championship, I must admit that this dirty yet effective ploy was, soccer-wise, a smart move on behalf of Kewell and not something he should be punished on.

--Also, players who regularly throw theatricals get a reputation and soon referees start not believing them - see ManU vs. Internazionale Milan in last year's UEFA Champion League's quarter finals, where the referee ignored many fakes by the Italians...

 

[DirkDiggler]

Anybody else watch the game against Chelsea today? Leboef is a dirty **** and definitely deserved the red he got.

 

[Canoe]

Drinky, is this the same sky sports that didn't buy man utd, but recently negotiated a 5% stake in Sunderland ? For the record, if I had that big a$$ amount of money then I would definitely have bought that richest of rich clubs man utd. It's business to them, you don't go flashing bout millions when you merely like a team, no matter who you are.
As for the slo-mo, didn't see that. I saw the match live, saw the highlights on best of british and saw the incident on Sky. From the replays I saw I couldn't see any contact, but maybe a different angle could prove me wrong. How bout directing me to a pic of the alleged contact.
I don't agree that contact made-penalty. Contact made + dive = penalty. Foul in box = penalty, that's how I understand the rule.

Greglato, are u an aspiring football player frustrated at lack of opportunities ? Cause that's the only reasoning I can see for giving players long bans like you propose.
The ref on the goalline or just behind it sounds good. That will then be 5 officials on the pitch, but if it can help prevent some diving and controversy, I'm all for it.

Polish, is your referal to Ronaldo not more proof of my confidence statement ? Look at Ronaldo two years ago, he was literally dragging the defence along on his way to score goals. He was confident then. Now he's not that hot anymore and it shows.

Goonerbhoy, 6-a-side, awesome....we only do 6-a-side practise for fitness. I do play for an indoor footie team, but that's just not the same.

Ah, Sella, you are definitely referring to Ginola too there.

And which incident are you referring to Dirk ? The one where he stood on his foot when Kewell was on the ground, or the three other very blatant incidents ? Either way, Chelsea were fortunate to have had 11 men for such a long period.

 

[GOONERBHOY]

Who won today Leeds or Chelsea, say leeds i`m not to fond of chelsea.

Canoe,
I only play the sixes in the offseason [October - January] and i`m really starting to prefer it partly cause it`s at night but also it improves your short game it really gets the mind working you should look around for a league near you.

 

[DirkDiggler]

Leeds 2 Chelsea 0

 

[PolishPower]

Saw the higlights from EPL saturday matches today and pretty evident we had 2 more diving incindents. Im referring to K. Phillips in Sunderland-Soouthampton game(pk not converted) and N. Barnby in Watford-Everton game. Were the English tabloids screaming their garbage over these incidents? I dont know...

Personally I think at least 50 percent or maybe as high as 75 percent of all penalties awarded are result of dives taken after minimal to moderate contact.

By the way I saw Chelsea - Leeds and Kewell was booed every time he touched the ball and chants of "cheat" were heard. I guess the tabloids did their job then...

[This message has been edited by PolishPower (edited 12-20-1999).]

 

[Salamo]

First of all I think Kewell should have gotten a yellow card if not red. He clearly dived.

Drinky: I just do not know how you can support such a terrible dive!? I mean Kewell is a good (great) player but when he starts diving like that and starts celebrating when he gets the penalty then there really is something wrong.

Ronaldo has really lost it. He was a great player like 2 years ago (for Barcelona) but now the only time he can score is from the penalty box.

PolishPower: Those are called foul's not dives. If their is minimal contact then I would say it can sometimes count as a dive, but when you are at top speed minimal contact can mean you tumble down to the ground.

 

[GOONERBHOY]

Leboef is a dirty git!