Bush: U.S. probes possible Iran links to 9/11

[Pontiakos]

Originally posted by ShiftyPowers
To the Greek Guy:

The Jews came into the land currently known as Isreal something like 1000 years before Christ. At the time the only people living there were pagan fertility cults------------------>

the cults you are reffering to WERE THE RELIGIOUS PRACTICES OF THE ANCIENT PHILLISTINES (MODERN PALESTINIANS)...... of course I didn't mean that they were muslim............they became muslim when Islam overran the area 2500-3500 years later

The fertility cults of the Middle East were replaced with Islam (and also Juddaism before that); THAT is how Islam came to the land currently known as Isreal.

yup I agree.....in part....bc the phillistines kept their religious practices

If you want to get historic about it, the Jews have the right to the land as no direct descendants of the Early fertility cults exist today... ....

nope.........religion is separate from descent.......race and religion are not always linked....especially if reffering to history........

 

[ShiftyPowers]

Unfortunately there are just as many of those ancient Phillistines who converted to Juddaism than there are who converted to Islam. And a lot of the current Palestines are direct descendants of Arabs, who have absolutely no ancient claim to the land, so your arguement is very flawed.

 

[Pontiakos]

Originally posted by ShiftyPowers
Unfortunately there are just as many of those ancient Phillistines who converted to Juddaism than there are who converted to Islam. And a lot of the current Palestines are direct descendants of Arabs, who have absolutely no ancient claim to the land, so your arguement is very flawed.

true....some ....SOME palestinians..are Arab.....and Muslim.......this may come as a shock to you but the majority of Palestinians...are..................................ORTHODOX....... that's right they're Christians....in fact the MAJORITY are christians(60/40%)....

this is the common misconception in the west..

we see the street riots of the Muslims and we assume that all Palestinians are muslim...............nope............those christians are also the direct(diluted) decendants of the ancient Phillistinian tribe....... along with an unknown portion of the Muslims .......bc you see when the Arabs came into Palestine....as with the other areas they conquered .....they forced the masses into submission......The Eastern Roman Empire fought back for the right to Jerusalem......and the result is today's mixture of

Palestinian/Arab Muslims and Palestinian/Arab Christians.......


some ARE direct decendants some are not.....


of course people fail to admit this bc to some extent it change perseptions on how the situation is being handled.......

 

[ShiftyPowers]

Yes, there are many Christians in that area to (although I'll admit to not knowing that SO many were Christian). The Islamic World has always been very accepting of other religions, allowing them to live in their states and only charging a small tax. I agree that the people living in pre-Isreal Palestine have the best claim to that land, but you are making a flawed connection that the Palestines of today are all proud descendants of the Phillistines who were kicked out by the Jews; this is completely wrong, and descendants of ancient dead civiliations have no claim to those lands. Palestinians, yes.

 

[Elder]

Originally posted by rhizome17
PLUS






Contradiction.

I would agree with you in part, but images of television from the West Bank ae hard to refute. This brainwashing is widely known and really can't be argued.

 

[Elder]

Originally posted by rhizome17
Because any discussion of the middle east can never be complete without mentioning Israel. Everything you say about the Palestinians (corruption, terrorism etc.) can be equally applied to Israel. End of story. Even the Israeli courts know this... Sharon has been charged with corruption, and was found guilty of mass slaughter from his time in the army.

Pointing out things such as this DOES NOT equate to supporting one regime or another. Things are not black and white.

Sharon is a cocksucker for the most part. But the term "equally applied" is a far stretch. I'm sorry, but the stuff you see in the West Bank cannot be found in Israel.

 

[ShiftyPowers]

Originally posted by Elder
I would agree with you in part, but images of television from the West Bank ae hard to refute. This brainwashing is widely known and really can't be argued.

There are many Muslim nations (and I think the north african ones are the worst) that feed anti-Jewish propaganda to their people, it's widespread and confirmed. I don't know why people argue with you when you say this.

 

[Elder]

Originally posted by Pontiakos
Originally posted by Elder


Thank goodness they don't need to build statues to themselves like the Romans and the Christians or the Greeks, etc etc.

...there you go again with ignorance.....first off ...the Jews had a Temple to God which they turned by themselves into a market place prior to its final destruction......

second.......read about Greek and Roman art....before ...making such ignorant statements you will find that Greek art worships the ideal "human being" not itself.....and Roman.....well I can't really fault you ....Roman art was obsessed with its leaders...

Thanks for the long reply. I just wanted to comment on the art... In the modern day, I don't see many Jews with pictures of Sharon around... The Jews really don't care about that stuff...

You are right about Greek art... namely scultpure. However, I have seen plenty of Greek scultpure depciting the heads of leaders, and things of this nature. They are EVERYWHERE. And the Romans just brought back the Greek style, added a little of their own, and bam! Statue hero worship.

 

[Elder]

Originally posted by ShiftyPowers
There are many Muslim nations (and I think the north african ones are the worst) that feed anti-Jewish propaganda to their people, it's widespread and confirmed. I don't know why people argue with you when you say this.

I think Rhizome is just pointing out that the website has a certain agenda. I agree with that, but the facts, not the opinion parts, of the website are hard to argue with. I've seen some of the cartoons run in Arab newspapers, and they looked like they were taken straight out of Hitler's Germany.

It's really crazy what is out there.

 

[Pontiakos]

Originally posted by ShiftyPowers
but you are making a flawed connection that the Palestines of today are all proud descendants of the Phillistines who were kicked out by the Jews; this is completely wrong, and descendants of ancient dead civiliations have no claim to those lands. Palestinians, yes.

who told you that their civilization was dead...? They just lived under occupation.....civilizations don't die bc of an occupation....no matter how long that occupation is.....right now....the Coptic Orthodox are in a sense under Arab occupation in Egypt....yet they still are Orthodox and still maintain a cultural practice distinct from that of the Arab culture/language......they have been under Arab rule for over 1000 years.....is their civilization dead....no..........do they still claim Egypt as their home.....yes.....so one day if they decide to revolt against the Muslims will they not have a claim to the land.....yes......


there are many examples such as above that I could tell you about....


hell I could tell you about

the Greeks under the Turks

the Russians under the Mongolians....

etc...


and to hit more to home......


right now the African American population is oppressed in America....despite reforms.....


if sometime in the distant future they decide to revolt do they not have a right to the land their slave ancestors worked on for 400 years......

 

[ShiftyPowers]

But the ancient phillistine civilization IS dead. Completely. I'm not talking about Christians, I'm talking about an ancient fertility cult who has the most ancient claim to the land currently known as Isreal. Since there isn't one member of the civilization left, and hasn't been one since like 800 AD at the most, the Jews are next in line for the most ancient claim to the land. That's all I'm saying.

Yeah Elder, a lot of it really does look straight out of Nazi Germany. I remember watching a video about anti-semitism in High School and a lot of it was just rediculous.

 

[Pontiakos]

Originally posted by ShiftyPowers
But the ancient phillistine civilization IS dead. Completely. I'm not talking about Christians, I'm talking about an ancient fertility cult who has the most ancient claim to the land currently known as Isreal.

just because they changed religion that doesn't mean they are a different race.......it just means they are a different religion......

and as i said before the ancient fertility cult you are reffering to is the ancient religion of the Phillistine nation......this same nation converted to Christianity and some converted to Islam but both religions still co-exist...and the nation/race remains...

 

[ShiftyPowers]

But there is no way to seperate those who were part of that ancient religion and converted to Juddaism and now identify with the Jews, and those who migrated from Arabia, and those who were Jews, but then converted to Christianity. There is NO way to determine who is an original member of that "nation"

 

[Elder]

Originally posted by Pontiakos
just because they changed religion that doesn't mean they are a different race.......it just means they are a different religion......

and as i said before the ancient fertility cult you are reffering to is the ancient religion of the Phillistine nation......this same nation converted to Christianity and some converted to Islam but both religions still co-exist...and the nation/race remains...

If you want to get really into it, the whole Israel - Palestinian conflict is built completely on religion. Regardless of how many Christians live in the area, it is the fanactics on both sides of the religious spectrum that drive this. And if you want to get into a "what relgiion came first" argument, of course the Muslims would lose hands down. I just wish they would realize they beleive just about everything the Jews believe and just get along.

 

[ShiftyPowers]

They did get along for centuries......and then Isreal was founded.

 

[Pontiakos]

Originally posted by ShiftyPowers
But there is no way to seperate those who were part of that ancient religion and converted to Juddaism and now identify with the Jews, and those who migrated from Arabia, and those who were Jews, but then converted to Christianity. There is NO way to determine who is an original member of that "nation"

Phillistines never converted to Judaism....judaism in its ancient form is not something you could convert into .....either you were born Jew or not....

hence during the Roman occupation the distinction between Jew and Gentile....


In Palastine Gentiles were ......well everyone who wasn't Jewish...

but the Phillistine tribe remained and has been noted in texts of the middle and late roman empire....such as Tacitus(early) and (a byzantine historian whose name escapes me right now) (late)....

when the muslims/Arabs entered....some Phillistines converted from Orthodox Christian to Muslim...............SOME DIDN'T.... those that remained Christian...can lay claim to the land....

 

[Pontiakos]

Originally posted by Elder
If you want to get really into it, the whole Israel - Palestinian conflict is built completely on religion. Regardless of how many Christians live in the area, it is the fanactics on both sides of the religious spectrum that drive this. And if you want to get into a "what relgiion came first" argument, of course the Muslims would lose hands down. I just wish they would realize they beleive just about everything the Jews believe and just get along.

see my sig to understand what the conflict is built upon ....you said it earlier today.... not me......

 

[ShiftyPowers]

That is the very very simple version, clearly there is more to it than that.