London Underground Explosions

[fh_29]

hatred towards the west is around mostly since we the west decided to cut a big chunck of Palestine and proclaim Israel as an independent country.

Do you think the Afghanistan and Iraqian wars have helped lowering that hate? No it's more wood to feed it.
If they had absolutely no reason to hate us, they wouldn't that's crystal clear. But of course they lie and manipulate people to do suicide bombings by pure hate.

But even if it is just because of pure hate? Why do they hate us? Because they're jealous of our way of life? Well that's is not only a cheap excuse for it but also kind of pretentious.

I wouldn't bet on France or Germany being attacked if they had the chance of bombing some place in US or in the UK instead. Why? Because the french and german positions on the subjects is much more moderate as it should be if you want to protect your citizens.

As for the last paragraph please use " " when you quote Tony Blair.

great post.

 

[FFC2004]

from Fox News:

U.S. officials told 2 unexploded bombs found; timing devices also found

 

[Joe]

As I walked my groggy-ass to the shower this morning, I was informed of the London blasts. My response: "Not suprising."

I work on a truck delivering beer for my summer job, so I've had an overdose of radio coverage on this attack. Likewise, I've had all day to think about the proper response, what has caused it, what we should do, etc. Naturally, the focus will be from an American perspective.

First of all, this media "overcoverage" leaves me wondering if the media monguls were just waiting for this day to come the past four years. Maybe if it happens enough it will move to the middle "International" section of the newspaper and not even make headlines? Oh wait, they already do that with coverage of bombings in Israel (our ally) and even now in Iraq (our "ally?"--Iraqi policemen deaths get a small backpage blurb).

When I first heard the news, I didn't assume it to be associated with any group. I know London receives bomb threats or suspicious activity reports on a fairly consistant basis (I imagine many large metropolises do too). But what it comes down to, is these bombings would have happened either way. We didn't physically attack or invade a country recently before the Sept. 11th attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, but they still occured. It's an idealogical conflict. It has been, will always be. But we're only making matters much worse, we being our Western leaders and their decisions.

But spreading our own idea of democracy isn't the answer. It is not our job to spread our entire political ideals to peoples that don't want it. I think we're gradually learning this from our experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan--and I thought we learned from Vietnam. We need to be tolerant of people who think differently than us. The one exception being when their motive is to harm others. To take away the accepted human right to life. That, I must argue, is a fundemental human right, a mindset tied to all humanity in the world we live in now--supposedly progressive, interconnected and intelligent. This is an ideal not tied to democracy or any other political idealogy.

But, as it seems obvious, it's hard to tell this to people or groups who do not hold life so highly in value as we do. The troubling and always controversial Catch-22 of this whole idea is that if we do something--if we fight against people who do not hold believe in this right and threaten our lives--a very small percentage of us will die because of terrorism. If we do nothing, a very small percentage of us will die because of terrorism because as said because obviously, they don't value life. This catch is something the Bush administration has failed to realize in their double-standard, one perspective line of thinking.


Secondly, for those in the government or another analysist and pundits who have said "I told you so, this is what all these government warnings were for." No ****. We didn't need warnings or fear being struck down our throat every damn day. We all knew this day would come, and it will come again. No sh-t.

Finally, what do we do now? How do we react?

My friend changed the station to renouned right-winger Rush Limbaugh's program this afternoon just to see me squirm. Rush said this, "Leftist aren't looking at the world. They don't think there's a threat."

How do I respond? I know of the threat facing the Western world. I know the chances of terrorism. I am a more observant citizen to things that are out-of-place. But I keep on living. I don't let a fear of terrorism or a threat control my life. Oh yeah, and I don't make money off of it like you [Rush].

Maybe I made this more political than I should have. For that I am sorry. But my heart does go out to the family's of those lost. I'm happy to see that SGers and their family and friends appear to be safe and sound tonight--the reason why I stopped by.

Final words:

It's tough being the "good guy" isn't it? Even if our leaders aren't...

 

[FFC2004]

You're sending very mixed messages out there... I'm not sure what you're overall point is... but there's a lot that sounds very controversial.

 

[modena_10]

i dont understand why this thread turns into an arguement just because of a couple of hotheaded comments. people can have their own opinions, regardless of how narrow-minded or incompetant they can be.

my deepest condolences go out to all who are suffering due to this attack. my prayers and thoughts are with the families and friends of the deceased and injured.

 

[FFC2004]

a couple of hotheaded comments.

how narrow-minded or incompetant they can be.

lol

 

[JTNY]

Whoever set off the bombs and the conspirators are probably mentally ill fanatics or deranged in some way that leads to this atrocity.

Condelonces to families, victims.....


BUT! BUT! BUT!

Why is this such big news? It is always taken out of context when something like this happens. Just perpetuates the environment of fear that ties in so beautifully with consumerism, big business , post S11 environment.

Here's the deal: Is it a hundred or so English people were brutally murdered right? In cold blood, with no reason whatsover. True.

When you see media coverage making a tremendous deal - and yes I concede it is large news that 100 people died and heaps others injuried by bombs exploding BUT this is not my query.

I was watching last night, and they showed people up close, with the blood and injuries. Body bags, sheets and the lot. This causes the audience to see it on a human level and feel for victims, not see victims as just a number.

My query is that compare this with the coverage of the Iraq war. You see explosions on a radar, explosions in the distance and similar. When the Americans were dropping their bombs on this country you did not see the people up close. You did not see this human toll. Or else audiences might see Iraqis as people, like the victims of these bomb attacks.

Now in Iraq there have been refutable reports of 100 000 deaths of a similar nature. So does this mean that Coalition actions in Iraq are 1000 times worse. No, not exactly this is an unfair generalisation.

But it is an interesting comparison.

In Iraq the war (what war, it was an illegal invasion met with minimal resistance, and I'm not talking about the insurgency) started for political and economic causes, not for non-existent WMD. Not for social change in Iraq (BTW nothing has changed, YET anyway).
In London you figure given it is an Islamic terror cell, religious terrorism is caused by a fanatical few exploiting poor social and economic conditions and perpetuating hate. Then you get people willing to do this. Although often suicide bombers and such are indeed well off. Now I can't pre-empt who exactly is responsible but I can guess.

Now this act of Terrorism is a detrimental and heinous act. But I contend that perhaps, the war in Irar was just as bad, given the excuses for war and the real reasons - monetary gain, hegemony of the U.S. and its corporations and the beast that is the military/industrial/economic complex.

There is no need to go after Terrorists in a war type scenario. Only reason for this is to exploit fear and up military production.

What would be more beneficial to catch and prevent terrorism is to treat Terrorists more like extremely dangerous international criminals. Because they are not a nation and in warfare are an unseen enemy. Besides, fighting a war against small bands of terrorists (you know there might be a few thousand worldwide) is like shooting a fly with an AK47.

Instead, intelligence, infiltration and covert operations are the key at removing terrorists. More needs to be done. Prevention is also a way to stop terrorism like crime. Social conditions in the countries where terrorists are coming from are causes for people to turn to terrorism.

These alternative solutions are not epic, they are not grand schemes for invasion that are futile, they might not appeal to the media. But my word, lives will be saved.



For the arguments saying that if Britain had not been involved in the War in Iraq there citizens would not be dead, I don't really accept that.

Religious terrorists are irrational and have an engrained hatred for the West. The war in Iraq exacerbated this, but Britain was bound to get hit eventually.

As for saying France of Germany are champions of justice for not going into Iraq is a load of crap. They are just as self-serving as the U.S. and co who went to Iraq. France were buying cheap oil of Saddam, and Saddam was considering to sell his oil in Euros, rather than trading in $US. So it served France to stay out of war and Germany too.

If I have one message, it is:
Don't trust politicians - they have vested interests everywhere. War is ultimately a tool of power and fiscal gain for the capitalist beast of this modern world. If you brand terrorists as inherently evil, and see the West as a beacon of justice to free the Islamic world A la George Bush, please open your eyes to humanity.

 

[TheBlueBalla]

the important bit
I know I speak for everyone here when I say thank god the SGFers that were at risk today, as well as their friends and relations (Dreathie , Vazza, Adj, etc) are alright. 37 lives were ended senselessly, and all you can do is bow your head, pray for them, and thank god he spared those closest to you. Rest in peace to those who died, and may your families take solace that you are at peace.

I wouldve thought people were past misconceptions about Islam, but please, any standard text on Middle East history will reveal the depth and richness of what Muslim culture is, and especially, once was. Violence, hatred, criminality and murder in its name are the twisted constructions of crackpot clerics and extremists, and have no place whatsoever in Islam. If you cant understand that, just pick up a book, seriously.

As Guliani said today (can you believe he was eating breakfast near Edgeware Rd. ) London is the model for the resiliancy of the modern western city against adversity. Just like New York its spirit nor its diverse array of inhabitants will never be crushed by barbarism and extremism, no matter how much of a toll they exact.

The Political Bit

As I walked my groggy-ass to the shower this morning, I was informed of the London blasts. My response: "Not suprising."

I work on a truck delivering beer for my summer job, so I've had an overdose of radio coverage on this attack. Likewise, I've had all day to think about the proper response, what has caused it, what we should do, etc. Naturally, the focus will be from an American perspective.

First of all, this media "overcoverage" leaves me wondering if the media monguls were just waiting for this day to come the past four years. Maybe if it happens enough it will move to the middle "International" section of the newspaper and not even make headlines? Oh wait, they already do that with coverage of bombings in Israel (our ally) and even now in Iraq (our "ally?"--Iraqi policemen deaths get a small backpage blurb).

When I first heard the news, I didn't assume it to be associated with any group. I know London receives bomb threats or suspicious activity reports on a fairly consistant basis (I imagine many large metropolises do too). But what it comes down to, is these bombings would have happened either way. We didn't physically attack or invade a country recently before the Sept. 11th attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, but they still occured. It's an idealogical conflict. It has been, will always be. But we're only making matters much worse, we being our Western leaders and their decisions.

But spreading our own idea of democracy isn't the answer. It is not our job to spread our entire political ideals to peoples that don't want it. I think we're gradually learning this from our experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan--and I thought we learned from Vietnam. We need to be tolerant of people who think differently than us. The one exception being when their motive is to harm others. To take away the accepted human right to life. That, I must argue, is a fundemental human right, a mindset tied to all humanity in the world we live in now--supposedly progressive, interconnected and intelligent. This is an ideal not tied to democracy or any other political idealogy.

But, as it seems obvious, it's hard to tell this to people or groups who do not hold life so highly in value as we do. The troubling and always controversial Catch-22 of this whole idea is that if we do something--if we fight against people who do not hold believe in this right and threaten our lives--a very small percentage of us will die because of terrorism. If we do nothing, a very small percentage of us will die because of terrorism because as said because obviously, they don't value life. This catch is something the Bush administration has failed to realize in their double-standard, one perspective line of thinking.


Secondly, for those in the government or another analysist and pundits who have said "I told you so, this is what all these government warnings were for." No ****. We didn't need warnings or fear being struck down our throat every damn day. We all knew this day would come, and it will come again. No sh-t.

Finally, what do we do now? How do we react?

My friend changed the station to renouned right-winger Rush Limbaugh's program this afternoon just to see me squirm. Rush said this, "Leftist aren't looking at the world. They don't think there's a threat."

How do I respond? I know of the threat facing the Western world. I know the chances of terrorism. I am a more observant citizen to things that are out-of-place. But I keep on living. I don't let a fear of terrorism or a threat control my life. Oh yeah, and I don't make money off of it like you [Rush].

Maybe I made this more political than I should have. For that I am sorry. But my heart does go out to the family's of those lost. I'm happy to see that SGers and their family and friends appear to be safe and sound tonight--the reason why I stopped by.

Final words:

It's tough being the "good guy" isn't it? Even if our leaders aren't...

Actually, I thought your post did a great job of capturing the confusion I think everyone feels about this situation. I too was saturated with this story, literally, from the get go (I work in an airport news shop, and CNN was on since 4:30 this morning). Its impossible to say what to do. Something like this, which, though it was obviously brutality at its worst, was clearly designed to maximize fear, rather than a body count. Without delving into issues, such as the middle east conflict, whose complexity I wouldnt be able to even illuminate to people the foggiest notion of, I am of the mind that making the planet more economically stable across both hemispheres is the most promising solution to look at. Then again, what do I know?

I know I sound like typical liberal whiner, but I simply dont accept that the way that has been perscribed to deal with terror is applicable in all cases. Hearts and minds must count for something with a billion muslims, and while I will gladly give my life if the time comes to defend the way of life I believe in, accomodation and reconcialiation must be made between the east and west, and similarly, the industrialized and developing nations of the world.

By the way, does anyone know yet if any of them were suicide bombings. When they mentioned that prospect, I immediately thought of the pile of shyte that was 'Executive Decision' where a caricatured, stock arab terrorist ( ) blows himself up in a london restaurant. Hopefully it wasnt a suicide attack, as that signals a whole new scale of alert

FFC, your sig is excellent

 

[PhiLLer]

I don't quite understand why some people seem disapointed or are surprised that it's ''such big news''. Seriously, have you thought about that comment before making it? I'll tell you why it's such big news.

To use the example Joe put forward. Iraqi policemen get killed everyday, there's bombs exploding left, right and centre pretty much on a daily basis. It was big news when it first happened but news always dies down in the end, especially if it happens in a place thousands of miles away.
Now who seriously expected a bombing in London. Sure, everyone knew there was a threat and everyone probably expected something to happen eventually, yet when it did happen it still came as a shock. Did it really just happen? Were we really attacked by terrorists? I thought this only goes on in other countries...
When such tragedy takes place in your own back yard, it's always going to be a major point of discussion, regardless of what happens elsewhere. It's just the way news works.


Now the point I was intending to make.

The scary thing about these bombings is not that they actually happend but the fact that the terorrism we face today is as good as unstopable. I'm sure the intelligence services and police have prevented numerous attempts to target London with similar attacks but eventually it's always going to happen. There's only so much the authorities can do, and just imagine if it does turn out that it was a suicide bomber that blew up the bus, you know what that means? it's even less predicable, less stopable and we have crossed the threshold of terrorist attacks and in the way they are willing to carry these missions of death out onto innocent people.

What's also scary is that the group that carried this out probably acted on its own, ie. not in connection with Bin Laden or other senior Al-Qaeda figures.
I think we need to stop seeing Al-Qaeda as a terrorist organisation and more as a 'religion' or way of life for these mass muderers with numerous associated sub-organisations operating to the Al-Qaeda beliefs.
This makes things even scarier as it's not one group with Osama Bin-Laden at the helm but an uncontrollable amount of small followers who act on their own, independent of the main group.

 

[The_Knight]

Most of the people here don't know that also yesterday, in the same time of the attacks, Al-Qaeda's savage terrorists Kidnapped The Egyptian Ambassador in Iraq "Al-Sharif" and killed him on TV, in front of his entire devastated family. This person has spent a lifetime of charity and serving for the cause of muslims and arabs all around the world... so what does a network of brainwashed extremist barbarian terrorists do? Kidnap and execute him.

The fact that the London bombings occured in regions with predominantly muslim residents should be no surprise to me. These extremists have developed a religion or 'thesis/ideology' of their own that will only lead to more terror and agony against all races and religion followers in the world... be them Muslims, Christians, Jews and Hindus.... and launching wars for oil or whatever will never serve to end this situation, if not, its even fueling it.

Look at Iraq before and after the US invasion. Every week, hundreds of muslim Iraqis in the mosques and streets are being killed by other terrorist Iraqis after their militant groups have been unleashed following the removal of Saddam's Iron fist on them. Yes Saddam was a savage lunatic dictator, but he had an iron-fist control over these countless militant groups. But after the massively UNPLANNED US invasion, all these terrorist groups have been unleashed and bloody civil war is breaking in the country... but of course the Oil Dericks are safe and sound...

Many of my friends have mothers, fathers, and entire families living in London, and the chances are that these muslims will suffer the most after these attacks... if they were victims of the attack, they'll suffer. And if not, they'll definetly be victims to the anti-islam violence that will definetly affect every muslim resident in the country, specially with the kinds of misleading info people like panxoman are -deliberatly or indeliberatly- spreading... Such mindless talk has grave consequences.
And of course my condolensces to the families of the victims of the attack...

I was planning on taking the exams to be a Member of Royal College of Physicians (MRCP) in England but now I'm not so sure I'll be welcomed after the attacks... believe me, we are always the greater victims of such attacks...

In fact, I don't like any religion or persons who bases it 's life in a religion saying that if you don't believe in their God you're bad.

...and will justify it in the name of Allah ... what a sick God ! what a sick peolple!

shame on every muslim ... again.

....and yes, I think they have to be a shamed of those killing "in the name of" their God...

If that's ur personal opinion then say so, althought unfortunately there is no room for agitating personal opinions concerning these facts.... but if you're THAT KEEN on spreading misinformation that will only lead to more misunderstanding and terror then SHAME ON YOU.

"Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it)..."
The Quran, 18:29

"Let there be no compulsion in religion"
The Quran, 2:256

"Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine.
The Quran, 109:1-6

Please I'd appreciate if you stop the mindless hate-aggrevating tone...

 

[Joe Star]

For once i'm with you on this Knight . That was really dumb panxoman. Its people like you who mess things up even more. I hope there aint much backlash after the attacks. I got some relatives over in UK & i would hate it if their lives are turned upside down by this. I aint muslim but i guess individuals like panxoman there will put us all in the same "paki" group. My condolences again to everyone affected by this situation

 

[The_Knight]

I hope there aint much backlash after the attacks. I got some relatives over in UK & i would hate it if their lives are turned upside down by this. I aint muslim but i guess individuals like panxoman there will put us all in the same "paki" group.

Yeah I remember in the US post 9/11.. an Indian Hindu with a beard was slaughtered with a knife while walking in the street... for simply having a beard and "looking mediterranean". The backlash could -on many occasions- reach an extent being far worse than the attack itself. Things are terribly bad the way they are without the mindless talk...

 

[INFESTA]

It's tough being the "good guy" isn't it? Even if our leaders aren't...

Great post, Joe. I chose to quote just this sentence only because I was speaking to a friend over the internet about how difficult it is to be lucid these days. On one hand you oppose the US foreign policy, with their quests for power, influence and oil that do nothing but aggravate the hatred towards western society in general; but, on the other hand, you condemn even more vehemently the radicals who, behind a cape of religious righteousness, carry indiscriminated terrorist attacks on western countries AND on their home soil aswell.
The problem starts when, on the eyes of both parties, you can't stay neutral. 'Either you're with us or you're with the terrorists'. Be a part of something you don't believe, or be a part of something you hate, or be a target for both sides.

You know what, I'm getting tired of our Age. Fack the war for oil, the over-priced gas and the subsequent excuses to raise prices; I'll take a stroll to work, thank you, it's even more healthy. Fack TV and their narrow-minded, brain-stopping, sleep-inducing, propaganda-spreading shows; I'd rather read a book anyway. Fack our western democracies, the morons we vote for every 4 years, getting rich right in front of our eyes while laughing at our misery, asking us to be patient because they're doing all that they can; is this the best we can come up with? Fack the G8, bunch of self-centered @rseholes who think making life a little easier to 830 million africans is a blessing they're giving to the rest of the world; it is nothing but your facking duty, you lame excuse for human beings! And has there been any greater excuse throughout history for man to hate man and wage war than religion? A big fack off to all who try and have tried to impose a different faith on us by force; just leave us the fack alone! Fack the media and their over-exposure of every misery they can sense will glue us to the screen while making regular stops for publicity; fack their constant and repetitive reporters 'live from the scene' repeating every 10 minutes what we already heard; fack photo-journalists who hide behind their cameras getting snapshots of human tragedy in Africa while doing nothing to help, all because their mission is to 'alarm the public in Europe'; might aswell send a facking robot. Fack all industries who continuously pollute the globe, destroy valuable natural resources, use slave labour, employ children; may you harvest on this Earth all the suffering your greed sowed.

We just want to live our facking lives. That's it. I want to get married, have children and live in a safe, natural environment, not caring about bullsh!t politicians and their greedy agendas. I don't want to be filthy rich or have unsurmountable power in my hands, I live quite well in an average house with those that I love. I am quite happy with my average but loyal friends. Honestly, I don't need Nike or Puma, nor do I need a Ferrari or a BMW, or a fancy watch, or an expensive restaurant, or half of the gadgets you can find in a regular house - I don't need them to be happy. You can take all malls and brand stores, take recreational plastic surgery, take Dolly the sheep, take mega-corporations, take the stock markets, take football agents, take shallow celebrities and gossip mags for all I care. Just wash this sh!t all away and give us equality and peace!

 

[Joe Star]

Amen Infesta. Now THAT was a good post. Too bad many dont see it that way :boohoo:

 

[PhiLLer]

Hugo, that post reminded me of Ewan McGregor's opening monologue in Trainspotting. Legend.

 

[-William-]

Great post Infesta.



EDIT: And sadly this type of act will occur again, and probably in Italy.

 

[aftab]

There is an al-Qaeda affiliated website claiming responsibility of the attack.
I am quoting from earlier post:

"Nation of Islam and Arab nation: Rejoice for it is time to take revenge against the British Zionist Crusader government in retaliation for the massacres Britain is committing in Iraq and Afghanistan. The heroic mujahideen have carried out a blessed raid in London. Britain is now burning with fear, terror and panic in its northern, southern, eastern, and western quarters.

We have repeatedly warned the British Government and people. We have fulfilled our promise and carried out our blessed military raid in Britain after our mujahideen exerted strenuous efforts over a long period of time to ensure the success of the raid.

We continue to warn the governments of Denmark and Italy and all the Crusader governments that they will be punished in the same way if they do not withdraw their troops from Iraq and Afghanistan. He who warns is excused.

Now Taliban spokesman is also saying that innocent people died in Britain because of their government:

"The people of Britain are facing trouble only because of the evil deeds and oppression of their rulers," a Taliban spokesman Abdul Latif Hakimi said by telephone from an undisclosed location. Hakimi said the Taliban were neither sad nor happy about the four bombs on London's transport network. "Had these blasts been directed at Britain's military targets or inflicted losses on the British government then we would have been very happy," he said. "We will take revenge on Britain in Afghanistan but, nevertheless, the Taliban have nothing to do with these blasts," he added.

---------------

Whom is he referring to? IRA/Mosad/RAW? Absolutely not.

And this is not a separate incident. There are similar incidents happening all over the world. Irrespective of the legitimacy of Chechen struggle, we know Chechens killed hundreds of common Russian people in different operations. Similarly in Iraq and Saudi Arabia.

It is so obvious that I am amazed how can anyone still deny it. One needs to realize that denying the real culprits of such crimes is equivalent to supporting them.
Can we support killers of common folks? NO. This is not what Islam teaches. This is the irony. Those extremists are carrying out the killings in the name of Islam, when Islam itself give sanctity of human life, irrespective of what religion one belongs.

 

[Jambo Den]

Well, we're guaranteed to have a pathetic witch hunt for terrorists i.e The News of the Screws' paedophile search for the next few months at least.

I await Sunday's paper to see if the guy in my corner shop is named.

 

[pede54]

I was planning on taking the exams to be a Member of Royal College of Physicians (MRCP) in England but now I'm not so sure I'll be welcomed after the attacks... believe me, we are always the greater victims of such attacks...

I understand why you might think this mate,and sure we have a few boneheads over here,but generally speaking,nobody is gonna want to harm you just because you might be a muslim or you aint white.If you want to come to London to study,then come on over and do that.You will be most welcome in what is probably the most culturally diverse, harmonious and tolerant Capital city in the world.

 

[theedor]

I'm sorry for the victims of terrorist attacks in england.. as the_knight said, we're always the biggest victims of these attacks.. I can literally feel your pain as I had closely experienced the terrorist attacks in 2003 in Istanbul..

why can't people live in peace, why do they want to kill innocent civilians I have never understood that..