Same Sex Marriage

[Jaboldinho]

Gay marriage would not affect the population in any way. People aren't having kids now, but would partake in a same sex marriage if they were able. They're just dating those gay guys they would end up marrying if they had the chance.

 

[Filipower]

I love how you two people answered your first post quite normally and politely, and you were the one who got overly angry saying they shouldn't call you bigot and blast you because of your opinion, when no one did that.

 

[coolkid45]

Perhaps you're right, I probably overreacted a bit. I just see it happen all the time that I did not want any escalation.

 

[Filipower]

No one escalated man, the whole point of the thread was to get the discussion going, if it was only a bunch of us saying they agreed it'd be over in one page. What you will have to do is come up with a better argument than "if everyone in the world started marrying gay, we would be killing off the population", though, because that is realistically absurd.

 

[Sir Calumn]

To be honest, because I am not gay, it is out of my jurisdiction to claim that I know the answer to this question, even moreso after clarifying my prior point.

I know a guy who had no sexual drive for the first 20 years of his life and he did not understand why. He thought he was gay but couldn't fathom living with that fact. Eventually he tried making out with girls and slowly did he develop the niche he was seeking.

I'm sure some people can be born with an attraction to men, however. Regardless, whether you like men or not, that does not change the fact that naturally you are defying the progression of human life if you marry gay.

Edit: To respond to your last point, "most people of intellect" is a redundant and subtle shot, something I could anticipate from the beginning of this discussion. Anyway..
The point is, we are talking from an ethical perspective, so yes while there is overpopulation at the moment, chances are there will not be forever, specifically if more and more people marry gay over the long haul.

I would also like to point out that the overpopulation argument really is not compelling enough to tell people, "stop reproducing." We love of our children, and we love to see them blossom. The greatest thing in this world is life as we understand it and we are rescinding our chances of progressing society by cutting off this very given possibility.

Your argument does not stand up logically. If you believe that homosexuality shouldnt be "normalized" by permitting marriage for the reason that homosexual couples cannot produce children and heterosexuals can, you are basically saying that you feel it is an obligation of all couples to produce children. How is there a difference between a person choosing not to have children for financial reasons or for reasons of fearing responsibility and a person choosing not to have children because of their sexual preference? Your argument is cogent only if you also believe that heterosexual couples should not have the option not to reproduce, which I am sure you do not.

 

[Filipower]

Exactly. I'm pretty sure I don't want to have kids, am I acting immorally too? How about priests, are they acting immorally?

 

[coolkid45]

You guys are misunderstanding my point. As I stated earlier, I am discussing homosexuality from an ethical perspective, not what a gay couple does in their household which is entirely their right. I believe that if you can conceive, you should do so by all means.

Perhaps this thread is not the place to discuss what I am talking about.

 

[leungtl]

To be honest, because I am not gay, it is out of my jurisdiction to claim that I know the answer to this question, even moreso after clarifying my prior point.

I know a guy who had no sexual drive for the first 20 years of his life and he did not understand why. He thought he was gay but couldn't fathom living with that fact. Eventually he tried making out with girls and slowly did he develop the niche he was seeking.

I'm sure some people can be born with an attraction to men, however. Regardless, whether you like men or not, that does not change the fact that naturally you are defying the progression of human life if you marry gay.

Edit: To respond to your last point, "most people of intellect" is a redundant and subtle shot, something I could anticipate from the beginning of this discussion. Anyway..
The point is, we are talking from an ethical perspective, so yes while there is overpopulation at the moment, chances are there will not be forever, specifically if more and more people marry gay over the long haul.

I would also like to point out that the overpopulation argument really is not compelling enough to tell people, "stop reproducing." We love of our children, and we love to see them blossom. The greatest thing in this world is life as we understand it and we are rescinding our chances of progressing society by cutting off this very given possibility.

Here is the main problem with your point: You assume that homosexual marriage will in some way affect the amount of heterosexual marriages or reproduction.

It won't.

Two of my closest friends are gay, and I know quite a few others through them since the gay community in my city is quite small.

Sexuality is not limited to hetero and homo. For example, your friend may be Asexual (i.e. not attracted to any sex) and there is also pansexuality (attracted to all gender identities). But at the same time, sexuality is fluid and can change - many of my lesbian friends actually had boyfriends in high school. Although for many of us here on SG, I suspect we are mostly strong heterosexuals.

"The progression of human life" that you talk about is not what was generally accepted hundreds (and thousands) of years ago. In fact, I would argue that progression needs to move FORWARD towards equal rights for everyone now that society is starting to become aware of people being born with sexualities other than hetero.

The technology is now there for lesbian and gay couples through IVF to have children of their own if they wish or to adopt. The real reason why there has been a decline in births isn't because of gay marriage at all - it's because couples have made a conscious decision that the financial toll of raising children will be too high.

 

[Sir Calumn]

I believe that if you can conceive, you should do so by all means.

Sorry I do not mean this to sound facetious, but I am generally curious as to what you mean by this statement. Because my interpretation of it would be that you believe ALL individuals have an OBLIGATION to reproduce, provided they are not infertile or their health would be endangered?

 

[Filipower]

I believe that if you can conceive, you should do so by all means.

So my question is still valid.

 

[Sir Calumn]

The technology is now there for lesbian and gay couples through IVF to have children of their own if they wish or to adopt. The real reason why there has been a decline in births isn't because of gay marriage at all - it's because couples have made a conscious decision that the financial toll of raising children will be too high.

You see I personally would see it as a positive thing for there to be a greater number of couple who are unable to conceive and therefore seeking to adopt, because the situation and quantity of children on the long adoption waiting list in this country is really quite tragic.

 

[Filipower]

Depends on the country though. Over here we had 90,000 babies born in 2012. 40 years ago we had 200,000. We had more people dying than being born last year.

 

[Sir Calumn]

Depends on the country though. Over here we had 90,000 babies born in 2012. 40 years ago we had 200,000. We had more people dying than being born last year.

Yes, there are countries like that, generally it is a sign of deeper lying social problems which need addressing, but I see no reason why countries couldnt use immigration and cross-border adoption to stabilize declining population levels.

 

[clash]

My sisters best friend is gay but it took him 18-19 years to understand that. He also dated girls and so on. Now he's been living with another guy for 3 or 4 years. You can say that he just decided to turn gay, but I think it has more to do with the fact, that the society, especially a conservative post-soviet heterosexist society, where I'm from, expects a man to bring bread onto the table and cum into a vagina, to reproduce, carry on the name etc. If one sexual orientation has been given the privilege normality and others are considered deviant, you might end up in a situation where you don't even want to think about being gay. The dude's father is also a hardcore heterosexist...So yeah, I'd think twice before considering coming out (even for oneself), or realizing you're not straight, a lifestyle change or a choice.

 

[Alex]

If you're like a really mannish woman, or a really obvious trans-woman, is a bi-sexual man the best thing that can possibly happen to you? Or does a bi man want his women to be women and his men to be men?

I think bisexual people very often find the same members of opposite sex attractive as most of their gender does. And they seem to fall into two categories of finding the same members of the same sex attractive as either gay people of their gender, or straight of the opposite gender.

An inbetween I don't imagine they'd appreciate any more than you or me in most cases

 

[ShiftyPowers]

It won't be Holy Matrimony as the Bible's definition hasn't changed

I beg to differ. The biblical definition is full of polygamy and handmaidens, not to mention the wife as property. I don't think churches should be forced to marry gays, but I think one can make a very convincing argument about them not being allowed to discriminate as long as they remain tax exempt (which is a whole other issue).

To be honest, because I am not gay, it is out of my jurisdiction to claim that I know the answer to this question, even moreso after clarifying my prior point.

I think it is quite easy for you to say if you stop looking at homosexuals as some strange "other" that are nothing like heterosexuals. Suck a couple cocks and lte me know how you feel about it. I bet you won't like it. To me that's pretty good personal evidence that sexual orientation is something inborn rather than a choice. Could you choose to live the gay lifestyle and fuck a bunch of guys? If you don't think you could, then it's probably not something that other straight guys just up and choose to do.

 

[Alex]

My sisters best friend is gay but it took him 18-19 years to understand that. He also dated girls and so on. Now he's been living with another guy for 3 or 4 years. You can say that he just decided to turn gay, but I think it has more to do with the fact, that the society, especially a conservative post-soviet heterosexist society, where I'm from, expects a man to bring bread onto the table and cum into a vagina, to reproduce, carry on the name etc. If one sexual orientation has been given the privilege normality and others are considered deviant, you might end up in a situation where you don't even want to think about being gay. The dude's father is also a hardcore heterosexist...So yeah, I'd think twice before considering coming out (even for oneself), or realizing you're not straight, a lifestyle change or a choice.

I think this is a major point. Coolkid seems to be confusing becoming gay as a conscious decision with people who come out late. Generally for those who come out late in can be a matter of not accepting it themselves, or not understanding it themselves. It can also be a matter of fear of how they will be perceived.

The idea that we would have more homosexuals simply because marriage is legal is ridiculous. And using it as an argument against gay marriage even worse in my eyes. It implies that the whole reason marriage exists is out keep population numbers up. If that's the case, than how come those couples incapable of having children are allowed to get married. Surely we would be not letting them, so that the capable partner holds out and finds a fertile mate?

As Sir_Didier_Drogba has mentioned, adoption is another issue - worldwide there are more children on the adoption list than there is adopting parents. This is partly because it is made so hard to adopt (often for the safety of children), but having more capable loving potential parents out there could only be a good thing.

 

[coolkid45]

I think it is quite easy for you to say if you stop looking at homosexuals as some strange "other" that are nothing like heterosexuals. Suck a couple cocks and lte me know how you feel about it. I bet you won't like it. To me that's pretty good personal evidence that sexual orientation is something inborn rather than a choice. Could you choose to live the gay lifestyle and fuck a bunch of guys? If you don't think you could, then it's probably not something that other straight guys just up and choose to do.

Sorry, bro, but it aint as easy as you say. In a world where humans are very easily influenced, once you believe you are right or feel one way about something, you can continue doing something wrong without realizing it. Ever heard of partaking in a behavior in your early years that was frowned upon and later realized you probably shouldn't have done it? I used to smoke weed everyday thinking I was doing the right thing because I played sports and was a good person, but I didn't take into account how my parents would feel if they found out (I was using their money) and how lazy I was becoming.

In hindsight, I see what I was doing was wrong. And also, when I was a young kid I put my mouth on my bro's dick because of this stupid joke I fell for, and I wasn't grossed out at all. We are more a product of how we are influenced then how we come out of the womb. If I think there is nothing wrong with smoking weed, I can do it without feeling bad. Nowadays, I consciously feel horrible. Sucking a dick is no different than anything else.

 

[ShiftyPowers]

And also, when I was five years old I put my teeth on my bro's dick and I wasn't grossed out at all.

 

[Bobby]

In hindsight, I see what I was doing was wrong. And also, when I was five years old I put my teeth on my bro's dick because of this stupid joke I fell for, and I wasn't grossed out at all.

What the fuck?!