Screw Konami

[TristanAbbott7]

Wolf,

i think Sreddy and others who tried to respond with something more than "screw you, you're wrong", get upset because of the ultra harsh manner of your comments on PES5. Most of the points you make are correct ones. However, overall it creates a very negative perception of the game, basically dismissing it as rubbish. This is not accurate: in addition to shortcommings, PES5 has some improvements over all previous PC versions. People here and on other forums have learned to listen to your opinion. So you have the responsiblity of watching out for what you say. To me, the criticism could have been voiced in a less drammatic fashion, while retaining all the specific points made.

Yeah, I agree Juce. It was pretty passionate and untamed but I've loved this series for so long, I've just felt let down this year with the direction it's taken. Graphically, it's the most beautiful effort yet and I love the extra features such as snow, random injuries etc. during the game. It's made so many steps in the right direction but it's clear that people, on the whole, are not happy with some of the gameplay adjustments that have taken away from realism compared to previous years versions.

I know Konami will get back on track, this is a blip in the roadmap for me in the series.

 

[Nuno]

There are also alot of us who think this game is the best in the series despite some minor flaws. I had to adapt and increase the time to 15 minutes, before the game was perfect for me. Now I can't stop playing it.

 

[deftonesmx17]

Lack of performance will always be the excuse of choice for not improving AI. The fact is that most of the CPU performance is used for graphics improvement

Really? Is that why a certain such game called FEAR, which has very advanced AI and Physics is so CPU intensive. Or how about Half-Life 2 being CPU intensive? Or why the GFX king DOOM3 (had poor AI and almost zero physics) , is so GPU intensive and didnt kill your CPU like the other two mentioned?

Does the average PC user have a system that can run PGR3 at the same speed and graphical quality as the Xbox 360? The average PC user?

I very much doubt it.

Except for you to really see that graphical quality, you need an HDTV. With a normal TV you are only playing in 640x480 interlaced. If a person has the money to buy an HDTV they have the money to buy a gaming PC. The avg console gamer does not have an HDTV, so it will not look crisp and clean like they are seeing from 720p screens on websites.

Im sorry, but PGR3 doesnt really look that good IMO
PGR3

 

[pere]

There are also alot of us who think this game is the best in the series despite some minor flaws. I had to adapt and increase the time to 15 minutes, before the game was perfect for me. Now I can't stop playing it.

exactly the same for me. I cant see how pes4 or pes3 should have been more realistic than pes5.

pes3 had that very silly hand bug, bad 1on1 situations (almost every shot was in in..), and a buggy advantage-rule implemented.

pes4 was arcade, you could speed dribble from coast to coast every time, there was almost no midfield-play going on. Sure it felt more like direct control, but the downside was very unrealistic player movement. Also you could lob the keeper _every_ time, he would always go down and duck from your shot. ez win.

pes5 is of course not even close to perfect, but has brought some major rebalancing, and leaped a bigger gap than pes4 did from pes3 imo. I felt the development from arcade (pes4) back to a simulation a step into the right direction.
-> best to date running/passing/shooting speed, closest to real football.
->non-generic tacklings. you don't win/lose the ball automatically after a succesful tackle, it depends on the situation.
->player physics has improved dramatically - better collisions, no more instant stopping/turning at full speed etc... of course this feels like less direct control over a player, but once used to it, its as easy to play as before, and gives much more realistic dribblings. its still possible, with skill and timing, to dribble past 3 good defenders, but it won't happen automatically, like in pes4, when you picked a good dribbler like henry and just went through the defense every time...


Still pes5 is lacking some important things:

1. Real European league-sizes in ML, or at least fully customizable leagues. There is absolutely no excuse for this one.

2. AI in general has to get better in terms of creative play. It is too predictable. IMO there is no newly implemented cheating, pes5 is just as easy as pes4 and pes3 were. I won all 3 championships in my 3rd ml season, having started with the default ml players, and with having far inferior stats than the top teams. And I don't mean to brag with that, i usually get owned in multiplayer and also lost the majority of my (5 ) online matches.

3. licences for all teams wouldn't be a bad thing.

4. lots of small things I forgot, but that aren't that important..

 

[kschoice]

exactly the same for me. I cant see how pes4 or pes3 should have been more realistic than pes5.

I totally agree with that.

pes5 is of course not even close to perfect, but has brought some major rebalancing, and leaped a bigger gap than pes4 did from pes3 imo. I felt the development from arcade (pes4) back to a simulation a step into the right direction.
-> best to date running/passing/shooting speed, closest to real football.
->non-generic tacklings. you don't win/lose the ball automatically after a succesful tackle, it depends on the situation.
->player physics has improved dramatically - better collisions, no more instant stopping/turning at full speed etc... of course this feels like less direct control over a player, but once used to it, its as easy to play as before, and gives much more realistic dribblings. its still possible, with skill and timing, to dribble past 3 good defenders, but it won't happen automatically, like in pes4, when you picked a good dribbler like henry and just went through the defense every time...

and with that too...

Still pes5 is lacking some important things:

1. Real European league-sizes in ML, or at least fully customizable leagues. There is absolutely no excuse for this one.

I think I already said enough on that topic...

2. AI in general has to get better in terms of creative play. It is too predictable. IMO there is no newly implemented cheating, pes5 is just as easy as pes4 and pes3 were. I won all 3 championships in my 3rd ml season, having started with the default ml players, and with having far inferior stats than the top teams. And I don't mean to brag with that, i usually get owned in multiplayer and also lost the majority of my (5 ) online matches.

I totally agree that there is no significant cheating added in pes5 from other versions. The only thing added in PES5 that I can think of is the recurring faults when you try to get the ball from a CPU defender. But all that's been there since ISSPE1 is still there, and with realism improving in the rest of the game, as you stated, this cheating is geeting more and more noticeable and frustrating.

 

[kschoice]

Really? Is that why a certain such game called FEAR, which has very advanced AI and Physics is so CPU intensive. Or how about Half-Life 2 being CPU intensive? Or why the GFX king DOOM3 (had poor AI and almost zero physics) , is so GPU intensive and didnt kill your CPU like the other two mentioned?

OK then, it's a matter of good or bad programming. That still serves my point. How come we still play the same sport games in regard of CPU AI that we were 10 or even 15 years ago, which only can beat you by performing tricks you can't, or making your players play poorly ?

 

[Noble Savage]

First I want to say that PES 5 has some great improvements but:

I wish it could be possible to make the refs give the cpu more cards. A tackle from behind when you're through on goal is a red card no matter if it's not a sliding tackle. Now when you're through you can see the cpu player coming from behind and catching you no matter if you have Eto'o and the cpu has a slow defender like Huth. And when the cpu catches you it simply tackles from behind not sliding but in a way that you can see the cpu ONLY tried to take you down. The ref then gives you a freekick and looks dissappointed in the cpu player because he's been a naughty boy and made a foul which should normally result in a red card (and it's the same thing when I foul when the cpu is through, it should be a straight red card, THAT'S REALISM). And to add the pain it's perfectly possible (and likely) that my attacker get's injured. :boohoo:
How can Konami be marketing this game by saying they've made it more realistic than ever when they've left out some of the basic rules of the game? I'm really starting to believe that in PES 6 the cpu will have 12 or more players in the field.
The other thing that really bugs me is the stamina that the players lack. I wouldn't want to make every player a 99 stamina and mentality with 8 condition cause there should be variation between players in this area too. How come a player like Lampard is able to play only two or three games in a row when in reality he is capable of playing every goddamn game of the season. This has been ****ed up after PES 4 which had a perfect fatigue system.

BTW have any of you won a league (not ML) with 6 stars? I really hope you have so that I know it is even possible to do that...

 

[sreddy]

Still pes5 is lacking some important things:

I very much agree with your post. In a community I am leading, we are 25 ppl, who month after month play PES. We startet with PES4 and now We all moved to PES5.

Every single one is agreeing that PES5 is a major step en the rigth direction. Towards the kind of football we like - the ultra realistic one - and we could almost not be more pleased.

There is one Flaw, that really annoys me, but that is the same as in all PES-games.

Why is penalties so lame. Not so much the amount of them being given, but the way the penalty takes place. It is WAY to scriptet. If I take my favority Penalty-kicker and do EXACLY the same every singletime (f.instance holding direction buttons to the low-right and a tiniest of clicks on the shooting button) it may range from being a little to the right, almost near the post, hitting the post, and being a miss not even near the post.

It is SO random, and the player in control, has NO control over the result of the penalty. That is bad and sad, and that is an area where Konami must do something to give the player the control.

 

[sreddy]

First I want to say that PES 5 has some great improvements but:

BTW have any of you won a league (not ML) with 6 stars? I really hope you have so that I know it is even possible to do that...

Let me see if I understand you correctly. You are annoyed that it is too difficult on level6 * ?

I havent really been playing much singleplayer as PES for me first and foremost is a multiplayer game, but I recall so easy winning everything on level6 in PES4, so I would be great if level6 is almost unbeatable. One can always select level4 or 5, but there should be this extremely difficult level, that only the most hardcore gamer can succed in.

 

[kschoice]

Let me see if I understand you correctly. You are annoyed that it is too difficult on level6 * ?

I havent really been playing much singleplayer as PES for me first and foremost is a multiplayer game, but I recall so easy winning everything on level6 in PES4, so I would be great if level6 is almost unbeatable. One can always select level4 or 5, but there should be this extremely difficult level, that only the most hardcore gamer can succed in.

Does anyone else feel like something is VERY wrong to rely on the difficulty level ONLY ? According to me, the difficulty of a game should rely more on players' stats in each side.
We have to stop thinking of soccer games the way we think of other games. We shouldn't think in terms of "level 6 is unbeatable", but "Brazil is unbeatable, Chelsea is unbeatable, Barcelone is unbeatable". Whatever the difficulty level, if I play Brazil and the CPU plays China, I should be able to kick his ass 99 % of the time, and if I play China and he plays Brazil, he should kick my ass all the same... That's what I'm looking forward regarding AI.

 

[deftonesmx17]

OK then, it's a matter of good or bad programming. That still serves my point.

No, it doesnt serve your point at all. Here was your point " Lack of performance will always be the excuse of choice for not improving AI. The fact is that most of the CPU performance is used for graphics improvement"
My statement disproves your point..........

How come we still play the same sport games in regard of CPU AI that we were 10 or even 15 years ago, which only can beat you by performing tricks you can't, or making your players play poorly ?

We don't and I can't believe the ridiculous things you are saying just to be right on this subject.
Lets see, the year is 2005. 10 years ago would be say, FIFA 95. So you are saying the AI in that game is the same as the AI in PES5, yeah right
Again, its 2005. 15 years ago would be something close to maybe Nintendo World Cup Soccer for the NES.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_AI

 

[kschoice]

No, it doesnt serve your point at all. Here was your point " Lack of performance will always be the excuse of choice for not improving AI. The fact is that most of the CPU performance is used for graphics improvement"
My statement disproves your point..........

We don't and I can't believe the ridiculous things you are saying just to be right on this subject.
Lets see, the year is 2005. 10 years ago would be say, FIFA 95. So you are saying the AI in that game is the same as the AI in PES5, yeah right
Again, its 2005. 15 years ago would be something close to maybe Nintendo World Cup Soccer for the NES.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_AI

My main point was that AI is not a matter of CPU power.

Thank you for your link, but as it happens that I have worked as a programmer in a video games studio myself, I know what I'm talking about. I can tell you that the fact CPU stands a (laughable) chance of winning in FIFA 95 as well as in, let's say, Kick Off and sensible soccer on ATARI ST relied on the same thing as now in PES 5 : cheats. In general, apart from in some games (mostly FPS), AI has probably made some progress along the years, mainly to cope with growing complexity of the game universes, but certainly hasn't made a big leap like when graphics went from 2D to 3D, for example.

 

[Noble Savage]

Let me see if I understand you correctly. You are annoyed that it is too difficult on level6 * ?

I'm not annoyed because it's so difficult but fact that it basically means that the things that I mentioned in my post get multiplied when I increase the difficulty level.
I actually like the way the cpu attacks and defends even though the cpu mostly rely on tough defence rather than attacking (some teams do attack heavily and I like every moment of it).
Still the things I said previously are unrealistic ways to make this game harder so it's odd that Konami did this considering they are trying to make this game as realistic as possible...

 

[deftonesmx17]

My main point was that AI is not a matter of CPU power.

Let me make this very clear. The more complex the coding, the more powerful the processor needs to be to execute that code efficiently, no matter what type of code we are talking about.

 

[TristanAbbott7]

I think along with the red card for last defender foul they need to implement the subs correctly so you can only sub on goal kicks, injuries where the player can't continue and your own throw-ins.

Also, throw-ins need to change back to where you can select and move the players receiving the throw. Having to wait up to 30 seconds for a player to move in the general direction you want them to while your thrower has this kind of stuttering fit with his upper body isn't an improvement. For example, in FIFA you can make your player run to the thrower drawing in a defender and then make another player run into the space behind to throw the ball to and any given number of combinations of throw-in like that. With PES, your options are very limited and like I said, sometimes you have to wait for an annoying long time for somebody to move into position and often it's not the player you would like to have run down the line to throw to. That needs to change back to how it used to be.

 

[kschoice]

If its not CPU power then explain what processes the AI Mr. I have worked as a programmer.

Let me make this very clear. The more complex the coding, the more powerful the processor needs to be, no matter what type of code we are talking about.

What you state is obvious. What I mean is it's a matter of how much power you're willing to put in the AI, so it's a matter of will before anything else. My point is that we currently have enough power for good AIs, it's just a matter of how we distribute it. And marketing will always push the developers to put more visual effects because they "sell" better.

And more than that, I don't think that the cheats in use in PES 5 are that cheap in terms of CPU power, they are sometimes so efficient at finding out what is the worst move for the human-controlled player that I think the reverse could be a good start for a good AI.

 

[deftonesmx17]

Also, throw-ins need to change back to where you can select and move the players receiving the throw. Having to wait up to 30 seconds for a player to move in the general direction you want them to while your thrower has this kind of stuttering fit with his upper body isn't an improvement. For example, in FIFA you can make your player run to the thrower drawing in a defender and then make another player run into the space behind to throw the ball to and any given number of combinations of throw-in like that. With PES, your options are very limited and like I said, sometimes you have to wait for an annoying long time for somebody to move into position and often it's not the player you would like to have run down the line to throw to. That needs to change back to how it used to be.

To add, I think they should just make throw-ins more like real life. No black screen, no players in set positions, just quick throw-ins like real life.

What you state is obvious. What I mean is it's a matter of how much power you're willing to put in the AI, so it's a matter of will before anything else. My point is that we currently have enough power for good AIs, it's just a matter of how we distribute it. And marketing will always push the developers to put more visual effects because they "sell" better.

And you do know you have done nothing but prove my point, right? Like I was pointing out, in order to have all the visual effects, believable physics, ragdolls, and Advanced AI in one big package, we need more computing power.

 

[kschoice]

To add, I think they should just make throw-ins more like real life. No black screen, no players in set positions, just quick throw-ins like real life.

And you do know you have done nothing but prove my point, right? Like I was pointing out, in order to have all the visual effects, believable physics, ragdolls, and Advanced AI in one big package, we need more computing power.

OK, the point where we disagree is that I think game makers will always find something to add rather than AI, and at the end when people complain, they say they don't have enough power left for it. There are many things in PES I would give up with no remorse for improved AI.

 

[deftonesmx17]

There are many things in PES I would give up with no remorse for improved AI.

Like what? We already had to lose the crowd because the PS2's CPU could not compute that along with everything else happening on the pitch.

 

[Swanseajack]

Its putting people off buying the game to, let my mate play my copy on my computer last night for the first time, after seeing the ridiculess fouls, the way the ball always bounced to the CPU players, and the way even Rhonaldino would lose control 5 yards out for some unknown reason his words to me where “Thanks for letting me play this, I wont bother buying it now, I’ll stick to fifa as at least the Ref’s in that have not been paid off every game”, its so stupid if the amount of decisions went against one team in real life, Fifa would be launching an investigation into the Ref.