Screw Konami

[TristanAbbott7]

The CPU makes tackles on your behalf regardless of whether you press any buttons or not. I played a cup final last week and I was playing containment (i.e. not making a tackle, just keeping goalside of the player with the ball to prevent a shot or forward distribution) and the CPU made a player run into the back of him causing him to stumble. He still had the ball so the CPU played itself advantage and he continued forward. Just then the CPU made the same player who ran into the back of him nudge him again from behind and knock him over in the box giving a PK. On the PK, I pressed the correct direction to dive with the keeper and the CPU just ignored it and made my goalkeeper dive really late so he'd miss the low drive slightly off left of center!

I can cope with difficult games, I love difficult games. I wouldn't care if I was being beaten 10-0 every game if I was being played against legitimately but players who either won't react when you press buttons or do react when you don't press anything (and it's not my controller - this is on several friends PCs) is a CPU cheat designed to make you fail. It's like you work hard all game to have your players suddenly turn evil against you and throw the game.

You only need to search on PESFan, Evo-Web and here to see that this isn't just a learning curve this year with the game. It's scripted cheating because Konami have run out of programming skill to make the game hard in terms of AI. The game has always cheated as everybody who has played on 5 stars since PES2 knows but this year, the game excels itself with cheating.

What do we know for a fact with this version:
- Crowd bug on PC version. 200 people to watch a cup final between Man Utd and Arsenal!
- Goalkeepers not releasing the ball sometimes for kicks until they're a good couple of yards outside the area.
- No weather effects except in friendlies.
- Players doing things you don't instruct them to do.
- Keys/buttons being ignored when you try to get players to do certain things.
- Power bar has very little control over it this year. 1/3 = previous years full power.
- The best players in the world in this game have poor first touch when playing against the CPU at higher levels.
- Almost every 50:50, 60:40 ball goes amazingly to the feet of the CPU player even if the ball has to break the laws of physics to do so.

The list goes on...

If you don't like people pointing out these errors then don't read or post in this thread. It was opened for those who have the same experience to share their frustrations, not for fanboy after fanboy to state "you're no good at the game" or "quit diving in all the time".

 

[kschoice]

I can cope with difficult games, I love difficult games. I wouldn't care if I was being beaten 10-0 every game if I was being played against legitimately but players who either won't react when you press buttons or do react when you don't press anything (and it's not my controller - this is on several friends PCs) is a CPU cheat designed to make you fail. It's like you work hard all game to have your players suddenly turn evil against you and throw the game.

So many people miss that point about our criticizing. This is absolutely not about not being able to win. The worst of all that, is with all the cheating, the AI is still poor. I'm waiting for a game in which I wouldn't stand a good chance of drawing Brazil when playing China, just by keeping a clean sheet, and the only way the AI would be able to beat me in these conditions is because they make my player do a pass backwards when he's looking forward and I press the pad forward.

So this is not about difficulty, this is about an interesting challenge. I want to fear the CPU's attacks, which had never happened to me (at least for good reasons). In PES 5 still, even if a little less than in previous versions, you can find out that not defending at all (that is putting all your defenders forward to clean up your area) is at least as good a way of defending than any other. The CPU is absolutely unable to deal efficiently with one-on-one to many-on-one situations, and has problems with offsides too. Why is it that in every PES, it doesn't really matter if you have players get banned, you can still get to win the game ? I remember a game against Real Madrid in PES 3 (5 stars) where I have had four players sent off, and changed my squad to empty the defense. The CPU had then only been able to score a single goal in a complete half-time, getting offsides all the time. (On the other hand, I also noticed that when CPU players are banned, the game actually gets harder, with the catch-up system running at its most.)

What do we know for a fact with this version:
- Crowd bug on PC version. 200 people to watch a cup final between Man Utd and Arsenal!
- Goalkeepers not releasing the ball sometimes for kicks until they're a good couple of yards outside the area.
- No weather effects except in friendlies.
- Players doing things you don't instruct them to do.
- Keys/buttons being ignored when you try to get players to do certain things.
- Power bar has very little control over it this year. 1/3 = previous years full power.
- The best players in the world in this game have poor first touch when playing against the CPU at higher levels.
- Almost every 50:50, 60:40 ball goes amazingly to the feet of the CPU player even if the ball has to break the laws of physics to do so.

The list goes on...

If you don't like people pointing out these errors then don't read or post in this thread. It was opened for those who have the same experience to share their frustrations, not for fanboy after fanboy to state "you're no good at the game" or "quit diving in all the time".

Agree with all, except the power bar. To me, Konami made a huge mistake in PES 4 for the first time to make the power bar less sensible from a version to the next, which meant it took that much time to fire a non laughable shot that defenders could use this time to come back on you. The real problem for me in PES 5 is not for the bar to fill too fast, it's that you don't feel as much in control of your shots than in previous versions.

And The Wolf, then again, what do you feel about the issues I pointed out, especially in ML ?

 

[LaBrujita]

There are TheWolf 'fanboys' just as there are PES fanboys, it seems.
----

Without starting from scratch, it is impossible to create the 'realistic' experience you are starting from. In fact, it will be impossible to create, either way, as this is not real life.

This is what you are asking for:

Complete control of all 11 players on the field on your team. Therefore, at any given moment in time, all mistakes will be your fault (more or less).

Now, assuming some of us have great soccer knowledge and very fast processing speeds (of our brains), not to mention varying levels of human creativity, you are pissed off because this PC game cannot beat you without having to limit your overall influence of the game?

With that, to a certain extent, some of you are asking for the elimination of player ratings so that gameplay is purely your own, not based on player ability (and so behaviour).

On top of this, you are not willing to concede to environmental and situational factors affecting your players behaviour in 'big' moments, from time to time?

For example, you cannot accept that, in your Cup Final, Rooney rifles a 8-yard chance over the bar, two minutes into injury time. Meanwhile, the time he did it in the 87th minute, in the semi-final, was completely realistic and all due to your amazing ability to press a button and pull a stick in harmony with visual input from a computer monitor?

Who was cheating when RvN hit the bar against Arsenal?*
When Lucio miscontrolled in his own 18 against England?*
When Kanu missed from 4?*
When South Korea stayed 'in bounds' against Italy?*
When that racer caught up to you, despite your flawless driving, in GT4? (*actual events)

******* Konami, that's who.

You wanted harder gameplay, something to challenge you -- a way to lose, even! Konami gave it to you.

You want no cheating, now? Fan-ta-sy



This is not chess, you are not Kasparov, and PES is not Deep Blue.


Appreciate and enjoy what you have, because bitching will not make virtual reality reality.

 

[Snowy]

If you don't like people pointing out these errors then don't read or post in this thread. It was opened for those who have the same experience to share their frustrations, not for fanboy after fanboy to state "you're no good at the game" or "quit diving in all the time".

Wolf, you're a legend for what you have done for the game, but I hope you understand that this forum doesnt belong to you.

You're pointing out errors in an open forum, and we have as much right as you to post in it, even if we don't agree with you. And just because our opinions contradict yours, and are mainly about how good the game is, doesnt make us fanboys.

Can I make a thread that says 'PES5 ROCKS!!' and call everyone who disagrees and posts in it a 'PES Hater'? Well sure I can..hehe, but that isn't going to stop them posting, because that's what forums are for! To express your opinions!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[kschoice]

With that, to a certain extent, some of you are asking for the elimination of player ratings so that gameplay is purely your own, not based on player ability (and so behaviour).

On top of this, you are not willing to concede to environmental and situational factors affecting your players behaviour in 'big' moments, from time to time?

At the contrary, as I stated with my China vs Brazil example, I definitely want to care about player's skills. The big problem in PES as it is is that you can beat the CPU whether you and him have a poor side or a great one. Of course my players won't always be able to perform the way I want them to, but I want it to be fair. How many times the CPU will score on their only shot in the game ? And again I'm not saying scoring on only one shot shouldn't happen, it surely should, but not as often as it does, far from that, and not in only one way.

Appreciate and enjoy what you have, because bitching will not make virtual reality reality.

This is because of this kind of statements that video game AI has barely improved over the last decade. I am a programmer and I've worked in a video games studio. Believe me, I know AI can be better than this. But as long as customers only care for graphics and animations and such, you can be sure that financials and marketing won't care about anything else either. To me, games are about the fun you get in playing, and according to me, this fun relies on the gameplay, and the difficulty and fairness of the challenge ; aesthetics are the cherry on the cake. Playing an AI that you crush 99 % of the time, and uses cheats to alter your choices and bring a mere 1 % of pretending challenge is no fun to me, it's just frustrating.

 

[juce_66]

This is because of this kind of statements that video game AI has barely improved over the last decade. I am a programmer and I've worked in a video games studio. Believe me, I know AI can be better than this. But as long as customers only care for graphics and animations and such, you can be sure that financials and marketing won't care about anything else either.

You make a good point, kschoice. Sadly, the user's dissatisfaction can rarely force the manufacturer to improve the product. At least, in software or internet industry.

I think it almost always works like this: there are several products on the market that are of comparable quality. A large percentage of users is totally satisfied with those. A small minority is not and complains bitterly. The small minority is totally right on all their points. However that doesn't have any affect whatsoever, as long as the products sell. This goes on for years. Then, suddenly, a new competitor comes in and makes a product that's 10 times better. Slowly but surely it eats into the market share of the companies that used to own this "space". The users are in a bit of shock: they didn't realize the product they were buying for ages can be THAT much better. Now, the things start to move. The original monopolists are worried - they actually invest time and money and improve their products to be again on par or close to the newcomer.

 

[kschoice]

You make a good point, kschoice. Sadly, the user's dissatisfaction can rarely force the manufacturer to improve the product. At least, in software or internet industry.

I think it almost always works like this: there are several products on the market that are of comparable quality. A large percentage of users is totally satisfied with those. A small minority is not and complains bitterly. The small minority is totally right on all their points. However that doesn't have any affect whatsoever, as long as the products sell. This goes on for years. Then, suddenly, a new competitor comes in and makes a product that's 10 times better. Slowly but surely it eats into the market share of the companies that used to own this "space". The users are in a bit of shock: they didn't realize the product they were buying for ages can be THAT much better. Now, the things start to move. The original monopolists are worried - they actually invest time and money and improve their products to be again on par or close to the newcomer.

Nonetheless, I think that by making patches and editors, we gave Konami some ideas about their new features for PES 4 and PES 5. But you're right on the fact that there is much inertia involved and we can't expect much this way.

 

[TristanAbbott7]

For the record, I have no problems in missing an open goal from 6 yards out, that happens in real life and without that thrown into the game, realism would be missing. It's unrealistic that a ball will travel at impossible angles and unrealistically pick up acceleration purposely to rebound to a certain team throughout a game when it's losing though right? It's unrealistic for a defender to run the other way from the ball just so the forward can score.

Hopefully Konami will do something about all of this feedback even if it's just reverse engineering some parts of the game to how it was in previous versions. I'd like to see simple realism introduced such as substitutions only allowed at the correct time, etc. It would be nice to see a full stadium again. That took away a lot of the atmosphere for me.

PES5 has some great improvements in some areas, that's undeniable but it's also undeniable that more people are upset this year than ever before and given we all thought the game was close to perfect in previous years, Konami really didn't have to do too much to keep us happy. The graphics improvement and the addition of snow to me were worthwhile alone. The chants seem better overall (other than the satanic worship sounding ones!) and the menu system is the best it's ever been. It could do with a career mode like FIFA 06 as I'm not overly impressed with the ML structure, it was better when it had more divisions rather than all these groups which you can't fill realistically by proper league because of the number of slots. Why can't we just play with all of the teams in ML and have the divisions divided as they are in real life with an extra division for all the misc. teams?

Anyway, I think generally people realise PES6/WE10 needs a big overall and hopefully the capacity of the next generation systems will really get the series back on track and blow every previous version out of the water. No doubt the graphics will improve but at last there's no limitation on calculations for player AI etc. They say every blade of grass can have a memory of whether it was trod on throughout the whole game and the field can get muddy in real time and the crowd can all have individual AI, the machines are that powerful. Well, let's hope they take full advantage of it all.

 

[simakperrce]

It would be great if they finally took the time to rewrite the whole engine from scratch. It seems that some aspects (like the 45 degree movement, the magic defender catch up and the CPU loving to score equalizers in overtime) have been around for ages -- and i am talking ISSPE1 for the PS1 where they already annoyed the hell out of me. Since they have to release a new version every year in order to make a profit there is no time to build a new engine (which has to be tested). All you can do is "tweak" the same old one here and there, or increase the "cheating"so that the hardcore fans do have a new challenge -- and that's what they've basically done ever since. This might be an evolution, but IMO it is one in the wrong direction.

Other game developers are doing this all the time: taking a timeout, sitting down and defining a next gen engine from the start. Most recently Infinity Ward with COD2. id took 4 years to write the Doom 3 engine. Valve took an equally long time to come up with Source.

And Konami? For ****'s sake, they are basically using the same engine they've been using 7 years ago. I wouldn't mind having to wait two years for the next PES, but of course they won't want to miss out on the next gen cash. So I wouldn't expect too much of PES6 (graphics aside).

 

[john2gr]

I'm really,REALLY happy to see people finally judging PES5.If i'm not mistaken i was one of the first persons to point out these flaws of PES5 and especially the cheating.If you remember i'd uploaded even and videos showing that the players weren't doing what i was commanding them to do.I fully agree with all these flaws,after all these are what i said too.Also i'm happy to see people considering PES3 better than PES5 as that was my first words after playing PES5.Collisions,goalkeepers,AI cheating,SCRIPTING,cpu changing players in manual mode.As i said and before the key of PES series was the UNSCRIPTED gameplay,now there isn't any unscripted gameplay sadly.Konami has lost it's way and frankly i'm afraid that PES6 will not be something real big.It will be graphically way better than PES5...........but something inside me tells me that the gameplay will have most of the known bugs of PES5.And that's because,as Wolf correctly said,people keep kissing Konami's ass even though the game has so many flaws.The fanbase is huge and Konami simply doesn't seem to care for the quality of their game anymore.Sad but true (that's why we have and the crowd camera "bug").

 

[kschoice]

I'm really,REALLY happy to see people finally judging PES5.If i'm not mistaken i was one of the first persons to point out these flaws of PES5 and especially the cheating.If you remember i'd uploaded even and videos showing that the players weren't doing what i was commanding them to do.I fully agree with all these flaws,after all these are what i said too.Also i'm happy to see people considering PES3 better than PES5 as that was my first words after playing PES5.Collisions,goalkeepers,AI cheating,SCRIPTING,cpu changing players in manual mode.As i said and before the key of PES series was the UNSCRIPTED gameplay,now there isn't any unscripted gameplay sadly.Konami has lost it's way and frankly i'm afraid that PES6 will not be something real big.It will be graphically way better than PES5...........but something inside me tells me that the gameplay will have most of the known bugs of PES5.And that's why,as Wolf correctly said,people keep kissing Konami's ass even though the game has so many flaws.The fanbase is huge and Konami simply doesn't seem to care for the quality of their game anymore.Sad but true (that's why we have and the crowd camera "bug").

I don't agree completely with what you said. To me, the AI cheating and the scripting have always been there (at least since ISSPE1) , it is simply more and more obvious as the rest of the game improves. And I seem to have a better feeling with PES5 so far than with PES3, but maybe because I've only played in 3 stars yet, and because PES 5 is such a relief after the loosy PES 4...

 

[The_Knight]

PES/WE has never been unscripted. Any computer game is scripted. It's only the matter of how it's scripted, to make it appear that it isn't. For instance, when u take any pass/shot in PES, the script will determine where this shot goes, based on a number of variables.... Variables like:

-The Player's attributes
-The Player's foot used, in respect to his preferred foot.
-Which aspect of the foot is he using.
-What is the player's condition/forme (arrow system)
-The Player's position the the field.
-The direction the player is aiming his shot/pass towards, in respect to his attributes.
-The player's momentum when taking the shot.
-The player's position in respect to the goal.
-The presence of another player/pressure beside him.
-The amount of power on the power bar.
-The condition of the field.
-Difficulty level.
-Probability
-and others.

This is all a script built into the game. The more the variety of the variables governing the outcome of each play, the better the simulation.
Fifa, for instance, is far from a simulation. The outcome of a shot/pass depends on the attributes of the player and a pre-set system the ball will follow. Which makes Fifa far less of a simulator, more like an arcade.

So saying that PES was 'unscripted', and now it's 'scripted' is just wrong. Every year, Konami adds in more variables which enhances the 'unscripted' feel of the game, like being able to choose which side of the foot u will use in ur shot. This is a new variable that definetly rose more possibilites to the outcome of each shot.

The only thing I see wrong about the game is the ball physics and player handling of the ball... as well as many other minor defects. All which make the game sometimes really frustating.

But to be honest, I didn't get the whole 'cheating' impression... or the thing about players not complying to what they're told. Sorry but that never hit me before reading this thread. The computer does get to waste many easy last-minutes chances at the goal... and many garunteed computer shots go off target... and that's 5* I'm talking about.

 

[Bummy_JaB]

I have learned to deal with the frustration....I use to smash controlers....broke like 8 of them back in the day..... Now when i concede stupid goals or lose a match to a bottom team i just laugh it off.

Maybe the AI does cheat, but is there really any other way of making the game harder??? dont refs give pens away in real life like pires diving with no contact involved ?? Doesnt the ball miraculosly land on a players feet and he scores with ease???? like Pires vs Tottenham this season......

I will say the game is flawed BUT there is something about it that makes u wanna keep playing... Its like every match is different from the one u played before

 

[pere]

But to be honest, I didn't get the whole 'cheating' impression... or the thing about players not complying to what they're told. Sorry but that never hit me before reading this thread. The computer does get to waste many easy last-minutes chances at the goal... and many garunteed computer shots go off target... and that's 5* I'm talking about.

100% agree.

I strongly suspect the experience of the cpu cheating to be a mere psychological effect rather than the result of secret program routines that were implemented to make the game more challenging.

Besides the game is not that challenging if you have enough practice and know what strategy and tactics settings do.

In a simulation with many variables, unforeseen things happen. The fact that they sometimes happen in favor of the cpu and sometimes also in very critical situations is not a proof at all for any ai cheating going on.

Of course I get, from time to time, mad at the ref, and frustrated from players doing stupid things, losing the ball 3 times in a row, having close situations turning out bad repeatedly etc.. Those things do happen because there is a propability for them to happen exactly that way. And they also happen to the cpu. They even happen in real footie matches.

Well anyways, I could not reproduce any of the mentioned "cheating" effects (deflected balls always go to cpu players, players passing and striking abilities are poor in important cup matches, players not reacting to commands in critical moments etc..) at least not when testing under "non-comptitive circumstances" which means i used old master lague saves before important matches just for testing (6stars for pes4, 5stars for pes5). And with proper strategy settings applied.
As a result I am still convinced that the game is not biased towards the cpu.

I understand that blaming the game is a very fast and easy way to deal with personal frustration from missed chances or lost matches, but this obviously does not pay off in the long run since the "damn, I suspect my pes is cheating on me!!!" state of mind takes away from the fun you have when playing with it. After all its just a VIDEOGAME.

resumee:
-imo, cpu does not cheat.
-imo, adopting the "pes is cheating" theory does not add but rather take away from the fun, even if theories about secret (game-)world orders and other conspiracy stuff is always fascinating..

Edit: BTW this is my post #23

 

[NYCDynamix]

Its like every match is different from the one u played before

I realized that too, it actually took a while for me to realize that. The matches are now so unpredictable, which is great! You never score the same or exact way you did in any game, it's always different. I guess thats why people here are pissed off, its because thier familiar tactic strategy that might of won them a game before, doesnt work as planned the next game. IMO, its great because it forces you be real creative.

I for one was getting REAL pissed at the game, but since i started my 6th season i decided to try new things every game, so far i had success on 95% of my matches so far. Each match i won was because i was creative, took me a while for me to notice that.

ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN NOW! I just defeated the #1 WEFA ranked team BARCELONA, 2-1, i'm Real MAdrid, AWSOME MATCH! Now before the match, i didnt go thinking " Oh im gona get my ass whooped because they are ranked #1 and have all these allstar players" or because the "cpu cheats", which i dont think they do,...., no, instead i was planning ways to be creative, setting up my formations, checking out thier players, setting up mark defenses, etc...basically i really prepared myself. Now i didn't have an allstar team liked them, but that meant nothing to me anymore as now i noticed anything can happen. All i did was play smart and creative, was patient took my time, wasnt rushing into goals. At the end i prevailed 2-1 at Camp Nou as it had to be one of the best and exciting games i ever played. WE both fought hard till the end.

Every match is actually like this now....i finally saw the light and what konami was trying to do lol!

 

[shokz]

It's amazing how people can make BS excuse after BS excuse for things which are genuinely wrong. Cheating you out of winning is complete bollocks!

Spot on, it is becoming more and more like the FIFA forum post-FIFA 2003.

 

[kschoice]

I realized that too, it actually took a while for me to realize that. The matches are now so unpredictable, which is great! You never score the same or exact way you did in any game, it's always different. I guess thats why people here are pissed off, its because thier familiar tactic strategy that might of won them a game before, doesnt work as planned the next game. IMO, its great because it forces you be real creative.

I for one was getting REAL pissed at the game, but since i started my 6th season i decided to try new things every game, so far i had success on 95% of my matches so far. Each match i won was because i was creative, took me a while for me to notice that.

ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN NOW!

Before treating us like fools, you could at least read well. It was stated many times that it is not about winning or losing matches.

Variety is what has always made Konami's soccer games the best available. That's what is keeping me playing again and again despite all the defaults and flaws. In this regard, PES 4 was poor because you scored most of the goals in only a few different ways. More than that, variety and realism of the goals scored in PES 5 is great, and that's what makes me feel it's the best according to my experience so far.

But as this part improves over and over, the flaws in the gameplay and game balance against the CPU, and the inability of the CPU to create opportunities other than using one of your players to make the decisive move are getting more and more annoying. You say you win 95 % of your games, I'm sorry but this is unrealistic, unless you are playing Real Madrid, and even then it's too much. That only proves how unefficient the CPU is to provide a fair challenge.

 

[kschoice]

Every match is actually like this now....i finally saw the light and what konami was trying to do lol!

If Konami was God, they could at least finally provide us with a REAL manual switching. Manual is supposed to mean that the control WON'T switch if you don't ask for it. It doesn't seem that difficult to set up, does it ?

 

[NYCDynamix]

Before treating us like fools, you could at least read well. It was stated many times that it is not about winning or losing matches.

Variety is what has always made Konami's soccer games the best available. That's what is keeping me playing again and again despite all the defaults and flaws. In this regard, PES 4 was poor because you scored most of the goals in only a few different ways. More than that, variety and realism of the goals scored in PES 5 is great, and that's what makes me feel it's the best according to my experience so far.

But as this part improves over and over, the flaws in the gameplay and game balance against the CPU, and the inability of the CPU to create opportunities other than using one of your players to make the decisive move are getting more and more annoying. You say you win 95 % of your games, I'm sorry but this is unrealistic, unless you are playing Real Madrid, and even then it's too much. That only proves how unefficient the CPU is to provide a fair challenge.

Yes now im winning 95% of my games, yes i am REal MAdrid, but with the default PES5 players, i could understand why i was losing before obviously. Even though i purchased great allstars, 2 seasons ago, i was still losing and i couldnt understand why, i was also thinking the "cpu was cheating". But now that this season started i decided to change my playing strategies and get out of the close minded way i was playing every game, also i stopped thinking that the cpu was cheating, you obviously cant go into every game thinking like that and expect to have a good,fun game and win. So now, im open minded, CREATIVE, and PATIENT,im thinking outside the box now, im currently 11w 2d 1l. I actually enjoy every match now and feel excited, as to know that a low team can defeat a top team, like i said anything can happen.

P.S. Im not treating you or anyone like fools, im just giving my 2 cents on the game.

 

[juce_66]

"cheating" is a bit hard to define here. One may call poorly designed AI algorithms "cheating", because they are not sofisticated enough to give an appearance of a fair game. Another person may view that as the rules of the game, because it is a videogame after all and not real football. I didn't have the feeling of cheating with PES3/PES4, and i haven't yet played enough of PES5 to form an opinion, but it's all comes down to what your expectations are.

I agree with kschoice about one thing: it IS possible to make a better AI. But it looks like, from Konami standpoint - it's not worth the effortm because maybe the money spent on this would exceed the money gained from additional sales. I don't know for sure.. just speculating here.