adedawson;2850350 said:
there at it now in there classico thread. God knows why they had to bring up SAF there. Must be SAF bashing week.
no idea why the others are talking about it; but if you have read my posts before on these forums, you would know my stance on Ferguson is nothing new ...
Nady;2850347 said:
Obviously, people who don't know about the history of United wouldn't know about Fergie's achievements. He managed to bring United on par with Liverpool, who were totally dominating top flight English leagues before.
obviously people don't know? mate, if you don't know other clubs' histories, that's your problem; but don't assume the same of others ... I've been watching football since '91 ... and living in one former British colony after another, I have always had access to Man Yoo ... and I've witnessed your club's brightest chapters written in the 90s and 00s ... you're from Mauritius ... I assume you guys have got Supersport over there? care to disagree about access to Man Yoo?
Nady;2850357 said:
Can't blame them TBH. They probably weren't born at the time Fergie came in charge and didn't know the circumstances back then, even I wasn't born but I went through United's history quite a lot. United had 7 top English flight league trophies back then Vs 18 Liverpool. We're now on par with Liverpool in terms of english top flight trophies.
like I said:
Xifio;2850263 said:
Ferguson is a club legend, and is responsible for making the modern Man Yoo what it is, I agree ... he is one of the great football managers, and is definitely an immortal club legend ... but that's as much praise as he should get from anyone being objective about football managers at the top level ...
adedawson;2850316 said:
I should also add English clubs were banned from Europe for over half a decade. That's a long long time to not be playing in Europe. SAF had to learn how to play there not to mention the fact that we hadn't even conquered the English league, more building to be done.
that would have been a problem, except that during that 5-year ban, Man Yoo under Ferguson only qualified for Europe once ... one season's worth of experience is worth something, I don't doubt, but you are making it sound like he was denied a full 5 years' worth of European experience during that ban -- which is just not true ...
adedawson;2850316 said:
You guys forget when SAF first joined we were winning nothing, It was all liverpool and other clubs. We were finishing in 11th place. He had to build the team.
11th? uh, no? Man Yoo had finished in 4th place the season before Ferguson took over ... it was in Ferguson's first season that the team finished 11th, before rising to 2nd the following year ... so they weren't a bunch of muppets that he had to manage ...
Brian Clough was more of that Cinderella-type wonder story: taking a properly second division Derby side into the top flight, and then winning the big league within a couple of seasons, and then taking Derby to the semifinals of the European Cup the following season!
Ferguson took a little longer to take a decent side and develop a silverware-winning one, and eventually onto the powerhouse they are now ... but don't forget, it's not like Man Yoo were in abject poverty, with poor facilites; Old Trafford was already a 60,000 seater (it was actually downgraded from an 80,000 seater) at the time he took over ... you weren't winning, that's for sure; but there was a lot for Ferguson to work with in terms of support and facilities ...
adedawson;2850316 said:
It took him till the 90's before things started to take shape and that's was just the FA cup.
93, we won their first league title since 1967! You under estimate how much SAF had to do.
In the 90's we were still in shock and absolutely thrilled that we were still beating Liverpool and co to the titles in the most part. You cant go conquering Europe when you cant even do your own leagues.
he did a great job ... which is why I said:
Xifio;2850263 said:
Ferguson is a club legend, and is responsible for making the modern Man Yoo what it is, I agree ... he is one of the great football managers, and is definitely an immortal club legend ... but that's as much praise as he should get from anyone being objective about football managers at the top level ...
the late 80s and early 90s were a different era ... heck, even as recent as 1997, Ajax were able to comfortably make the semifinals of the Champions League (and it was the 3rd consecutive season that they had done so) ... it is near-impossible for a team with sort of budget and revenue collection to make the Champions League semifinals now; and if they did so, it would be a monumental achievement ...
the game then was not as commercial as it is now, and English football as a whole was not the biggest league on the European stage ...
all of it gave time for Ferguson to build, and he has done an admirable job ... which is why he is given the luxury of not worrying about his position even if he doesn't win a trophy for a year or two ... Wenger had a similar experience, starting his Arsenal tenure in the 90s, when Ajax could still be a powerhouse in Europe ... he started from a different point from Ferguson, and took less time to get Arsenal some silverware as a result ... and that's why he enjoys a similar luxury ...
but this sort of time is something that is not afforded to other big clubs in the modern now ... club owners and presidents are trigger-happy when it comes to firing managers who don't deliver the big prizes instantly ... that's why I said:
Xifio;2850263 said:
he would have been sacked at most other clubs on a number of occasions ... people may say that Real Madrid and now Chelsea and the like have fantasy money, which makes managing those teams easy ... well, you can buy the big stars you want at those clubs, but you need to make them all gel instantaneously (and not over a period of even 4-5 years); because if you don't win the Champions League every 2-3 years, you are gone ...
Ferguson has had to bank on the goodwill that he accumulated before football changed to the cut-throat commercial environment that it is now ... in the modern era, no one is afforded this type of time and luxury ... I'm sure you'll still think that he is getting the time because he deserves it; fair enough, though I still make that distinction between football the way it was in the 90s, and the way football and the imperative for instant success is now ...
adedawson;2850316 said:
You under estimate how much SAF had to do. This aint like Pep Guardiola getting handed a team full of super stars lol
oh I agree about Pep Guardiola ... he's been given one of the most talented teams of all time to manage ... I merely brought him up because he had equalled AND surpassed Ferguson's and Man Yoo's greatest season ever on his first attempt, but didn't get a knighthood or anything similar for it like Ferguson did ... I mean they obviously said he got it for all the years of service, but it was apparently only the right time for that honor after that treble success ... anyway, if you read through my recent posts on Guardiola in other threads, you will see that I actually knock the crazy levels of hype that surround him in the press and with the fanatics ...
adedawson;2850316 said:
I'm just going to stop. What insulting comments to make.
again, fair enough ... I don't expect you to at all see it from my perspective ... that is your prerogative ... Ferguson is an all-time great coach ... but if you read through my posts, you will see why I said what I said ... and if you check the stats for other all-time great managers (Trappatoni, Lippi, etc.), you will see that I wasn't lying about rates of success, etc. ...
if you see some reason to some of the things I say, then great ... if not, then so be it ... I'm done ...
. It makes things clearer about what you meant in the previous post. You brought up some good points actually.
