SG's Ultimate Draft Challenge 2011--This Year, Someone Will Win!

[Arnau]

This man saw Drogba playing as fullback at Dunkirk.

 

[Back Door Skip]

Haha, the Observer sees it all.

 

[Xifio]

Just to point out something to xifio, in the last El Clasico, when I said Marcelo's tackle was with intent to injure you said I can't know that for a fact and am just making my own guesses. That's exactly what you are doing right now.

yeah ... and I keep saying that it's just my interpretation ... but Az keeps using the word "opinion" and putting it against the word "fact", which makes no sense to me since 'current ability' is a judgment based opinion ...

He seems to be a late bloomer, no? Why would a big club make a play for a player that old?

And who says he has better teammates when he plays for Italy?

meh, late bloomer ... he's shown his ability for years, but always flattered to deceive on the bigger stage ... he's only really gotten a starring and leadership role at Udinese in the last 2 seasons, and it's made the crucial difference for him ... but even against Arsenal he showed what was good about him, and what wasn't ... but I'm happy for him that he can retire with his head held high for his individual awards, as much as for his World Cup medal ...

You had doubts about Drogba? Wow, that puts into question your entire ability to evaluate talent IMO. I could see he was special the first time I saw him.

Xifio probably saw him way before you did

yeah, probably ... first knew of him in FA Premier League Manager 2001/02, where I think they had him listed as a French citizen, with not such great stats ...

I watched quite a few Marseille games when Ajax sold Mido to them ... that was Drogba's 1 season at former European Champions, and it was the first time I'd actually seen him play ... I thought Mido would be the better of the partners, but that opinion soon changed on the merit of what I saw ... I hugely impressed by Drogs, not coz he produced in Ligue 1, but coz he also produced in the Champions League and UEFA Cup in emphatic fashion ...

 

[theo]

this is better than the sh1t I see at tele between Romanian club owners

 

[Mandieta6]

yeah ... and I keep saying that it's just my interpretation ... but Az keeps using the word "opinion" and putting it against the word "fact", which makes no sense to me since 'current ability' is a judgment based opinion ...

Seperate issues. My point about opinion was about your theories regarding Di Natale and Baines. You said that Di Natale isn't a big-league player because of mental issues which is your hypothetical opinion, and you supported this with your made-up theories about why that is, none of which were based on anything concrete or valid. With Baines you claimed that Baines isn't that good because he took long to become a good player and that he would get found out on the big stage, both of which are unfounded theories (and I countered both, but that's beside the point now).

Had you said that you didn't think any of them was good enough and supported your opinion with something based on their actual performance, it would be a different matter. You never once made an actual comment about their current ability. The only thing you said that comes close was the one about Di Natale not performing on the grand stage with Italy, which is true, but you explained it away by placing the blame entirely on his psyche, which is your opinion.

Don't try to twist the argument around. And don't lie either, you did not start by saying this is merely your interpretation. Obviously the things you say are your opinion, but you presented it as 'there-for-the-world-to-see' fact and have continued to argue in a way that makes it seem like your opinion is the only correct interpretation.

And regarding Di Natale never doing in on the grand stage. The grand stage would be the CL and national tournies right? Italy were disappointing in the two last tournies, so it's hardly his fault for not shining (especially since at the last WC he was largely a sub and still played better than most of his compatriots) and he's only had one season in the CL, his second in Udinese, where he played 10 matches and scored 4 goales despite Udinese facing Barcelona and Bremen in the group stages (Barcelona won the CL that year) and Udinese finished 10th in the league that season, so I see a big case for Udinese being poor as a team rather than just Di Natale who was in his 2nd season in the squad.

So, in the 3 cases when he was given a chance in the grand stage, I see a case for the teams he played for being poor, and not necessarily him (or just him). And even if he was poor, there are many possible reasons, not simply his alleged mental weaknesses.

 

[Back Door Skip]

O Zlatan, where art thou?

 

[liaitworgog]

Ñêà÷àòü driver áåç S

Ïåðåä Âàìè <a href="http://drivers.1x.biz/29-12-2011625.html
">êàòàëîã ïðî äðàéâåðà</a>, ïðåäñòàâëÿþùèé ñîáîé áèáëèîòåêó ðàçíûõ âåðñèé äðàéâåðîâ, à òàêæå ðóêîâîäñòâà ïîëüçîâàòåëÿ è äðóãîå ïðîãðàììíîå îáåñïå÷åíèå. Òàêæå Âàì ïðåäîñòàâëåí êàòàëîã äåâàéñîâ ñ îïèñàëîâîì, òåõ. õàðàêòåðèñòèêàìè è ôîòîãðàôèÿìè îáîðóäîâàíèÿ. Åñëè ó âàñ âîçíèêíóò âîïðîñû ïî óñòàíîâêå è íàñòðîéêå äðàéâåðîâ, âû ìîæåòå çàäàòü èõ ÷åðåç ôîðìó òèêåòîâ èëè íà ôîðóìå.
<a href="http://blog-ru.ru/uploads/blog/bezplatno-drayvera-na-hp.html">áåçïëàòíî äðàéâåðà íà hp</a>

 

[Xifio]

your hypothetical opinion, and you supported this with your made-up theories

haha "made up" ... as opposed to?

unfounded theories (and I countered both, but that's beside the point now).

unfounded? ok, you're entitled to your opinion of my opinion ...

Don't try to twist the argument around. And don't lie either, you did not start by saying this is merely your interpretation. Obviously the things you say are your opinion, but you presented it as 'there-for-the-world-to-see' fact and have continued to argue in a way that makes it seem like your opinion is the only correct interpretation.

hahaha ... twist? lie? I started by stating my opinion of your draft, and then stating my theory on his failure to convince over the years (not just since 2008) ... it is 'plain to see' for me ...

seems like a personal problem if you thought me stating my opinion and not calling it an opinion each time means that I was trying to imply "facts" ...

And regarding Di Natale never doing in on the grand stage. The grand stage would be the CL and national tournies right? ... he's only had one season in the CL, his second in Udinese, where he played 10 matches and scored 4 goales despite Udinese facing Barcelona and Bremen in the group stages (Barcelona won the CL that year) and Udinese finished 10th in the league that season

he was sharing the attacking limelight with Iaquinta, who was leading the line ... iirc, they both got 4 UCL goals that season ... one went to Germany to get a winners' medal, one didn't ...

So, in the 3 cases when he was given a chance in the grand stage, I see a case for the teams he played for being poor, and not necessarily him (or just him). And even if he was poor, there are many possible reasons, not simply his alleged mental weaknesses.

the fact that he hasn't gotten more than 3 big-stage chances in his career speaks volumes ... but again, I'm glad -- having been given the leadership role -- he's signing off on a very positive note ...

 

[Filipower]

Not making it in the National Team is enough for a player not to be very good, in your opinion?

 

[Mandieta6]

See, I had a feeling you'd rather stick to the semantics which is a tangent I'm not going to entertain since it just allows you to ignore the footballing discussion.

Regarding Iaquinta, maybe it's the fact that Iaquinta offered the sort of striking options that Lippi prefered? Italy played a bunch of different strikers and they all contributed with goals, so it's not difficult to see why it'd be hard for Di Natale to break into that squad.

Also, maybe it's the fact that, like we've said, he seems to be a late-bloomer. You're saying his talent has always been there to see, which is fine, but he could've become a top-rank player just recently (as demonstrated by all of his individual honours coming over the past 2 years).

And him not breaking into an underachieving squad could also show bad management from the NT, which isn't so much speculation since it bad management is a likely reason behind underachievement. And with Udinese, of course, he should've carried that team to the UCL every year, how has he not managed that? Wait, isn't he credited as being a main force behind their qualification last year? So, he's helped Udinese reach Europe in his second season after really exploding.

I never made the point that Di Natale has ALWAYS been top class, but that he currently is, hence his 11th round selection.

 

[Xifio]

him not breaking into an underachieving squad could also show bad management from the NT, which isn't so much speculation since it bad management is a likely reason behind underachievement.

well, the one team that he didn't break into [where he was genuinely vying for a spot] was the 2006 World Cup winning team ... the squads he did break into were the ones badly managed (Donadoni's incompetence, and Lippi's senility) ...

Wait, isn't he credited as being a main force behind their qualification last year?

yeah, he got the starring role as the leader, with support from guys like Alexis, Inler, and Isla ...

Also, maybe it's the fact that, like we've said, he seems to be a late-bloomer. You're saying his talent has always been there to see, which is fine, but he could've become a top-rank player just recently (as demonstrated by all of his individual honours coming over the past 2 years).

not so much that he's a late bloomer as that he was charged with leadership responsibility, and having the ball go through/to him in virtually every attack ... I'm saying that being made the alpha brought out the best in him; I don't see you giving him alpha status in your setup, but maybe I'm wrong ...

 

[Mandieta6]

Well, it takes class to be able to handle that responsibility and become efficient, and I'll maintain that he's improved in the last two years. Beyond this point I think we'll go in circles, but let's see.

 

[Filipower]

I've got my #1! Or rather, 53

 

[Pogba4Now]

Great pic, he fits perfectly with Navas and Tévez. Soldado was in my shortlist but i end up with Negredo which is better.

My list was like that:

1. Nagredo
2. Soldado
3. Di Natale

Nagredo and Di Natale got picked so I went with Soldado. He offers something different than Tevez and I have much more options with him.

Possible lineups:

Bench: Gerrard, Diego

OR:

Bench: Arshavin, Diego

OR:

Bench: Diego, Soldado

 

[Mandieta6]

Scnenereognekbgy looks like a good pick, but moreso based on potential than actual ability. I think if he maintains this form for a few months, Arsenal will finally have a keeper they can rely on.

 

[Filipower]

Aye, but the fact that he's currently their undeniable number 1 allows for more playing time than a couple of others I had in mind. IMO the top 5 had already been picked, so Szxcbnzmxcny is amazing

On for my next one, which I'm still considering...

 

[Dytza]

I was thinking about him too, but in the end I'm happy with Diego Lopez.

 

[Filipower]

Giggsyyyyyy


I know some of you might have doubts about my left-side (although with Schmelzer only someone who didn't follow the Bundesliga could argue), but this catch as my 12th pick should seal it I know, I know, "he's old". **** that, he's Ryan ******* Giggs.

 

[Mandieta6]

I had Giggs down as a hopeful late round steal for some off-the-bench creativity, so it's a good pick, although maybe a bit early. I'd use him through the middle though.

 

[Filipower]

Yes last season he was used there a couple of times, oozing class nonetheless. As I said though, the way his game is right now, he's perfect to come on for Johnson and help holding up that midfield while Hulk jumps in the middle with Licha